Mr. FRAZIER. The other part with his right hand.
Mr. BALL. Right hand?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. He carried it then parallel to his body?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right, straight up and down.
Representative FORD. Under his right arm?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did it look to you as if there was something heavy in the
package?
Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I will be frank with you, I didn't pay much
attention to the package because like I say before and after he told me
that it was curtain rods and I didn't pay any attention to it, and he
never had lied to me before so I never did have any reason to doubt his
word.
Mr. BALL. Did it appear to you there was some, more than just paper he
was carrying, some kind of a weight he was carrying?
Mr. FRAZIER. Well, yes, sir; I say, because one reason I know that
because I worked in a department store before and I had uncrated
curtain rods when they come in, and I know if you have seen when they
come straight from the factory you know how they can bundle them up and
put them in there pretty compact, so he told me it was curtain rods so
I didn't think any more about the package whatsoever.
Mr. BALL. Well, from the way he carried it, the way he walked, did it
appear he was carrying something that had more than the weight of a
paper?
Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say, you know like I say, I didn't pay much
attention to the package other than I knew he had it under his arm and
I didn't pay too much attention the way he was walking because I was
walking along there looking at the railroad cars and watching the men
on the diesel switch them cars and I didn't pay too much attention on
how he carried the package at all.
Mr. BALL. I will show you this picture again, this map, which is the
Commission's Exhibit No. 361, and would you show us the way he walked,
the course he walked from the place your car was parked up to the Texas
School Book Depository. You come around here and here is a black pen.
Show us the course that he walked.
Mr. FRAZIER. Like I say, I had that car parked.
Mr. BALL. Put an "X" there which will represent your car.
Mr. FRAZIER. All right (indicating).
Mr. BALL. That is where your car was parked?
Mr. FRAZIER. I would say roughly like in there, you know like the
picture shows right in there.
Mr. BALL. Now, draw a line to show the way that he walked.
Mr. FRAZIER. O.K.
Mr. BALL. The direction he walked.
Mr. FRAZIER. All right.
Like I say, he was standing right about there when I got out of the
car so naturally he started off walking so we just come on right on
just like you would come across these tracks right here, and he was
coming right on along the fence like that. Just coming right on, right
here now is the School Book Depository, right, so he was coming right
on down this fence there and he was coming across these tracks, and
standing right in here somewhere at the door.
Mr. BALL. Door?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. At the end of that put a "XY", so "X" to "XY" will represent
the course he walked. It shows "XY".
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. Then "X" to "XY" is the course he took, is that right?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. Did you go in the same door?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. BALL. You walked the same direction?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. Now when he went in the door you were about 50 feet behind
him?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right. The last time I saw him I was right in this area
coming across these railroad tracks and I just happened to glance up
and see him going through the door there and shut the door.
Mr. BALL. Let's see, the last time you saw him he was at the door?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. Which is at "XY" and you were crossing the railroad tracks on
Pacific Avenue?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I say this is Houston.
Mr. BALL. Pacific runs east and west?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. Put a mark there, put a "Z" there as to your location.
Mr. FRAZIER. Right in there.
Mr. BALL. That is about where you were, a "Z" when he entered the door
at "XY"?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. Now, you went on in the Building, did you, afterwards?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right. I went on in.
Mr. BALL. Well, the first floor of the Texas School Book Depository is
fairly clear, isn't it, it is clear of partitions?
Mr. FRAZIER. Pretty well. I will say we have bins after you get so far.
Mr. BALL. Toward the middle of the floor you have bins?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. Did you see Lee as you walked in the door?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BALL. Here is Commission 362 which we will show you. I will put it
up high so everyone can see it. There is a picture in the lower left
corner which is marked "Exterior View of Entrance Door from Houston
Street Loading Dock."
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. Is that the door?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. That is the door that Lee entered?
Mr. FRAZIER. That is right.
Mr. BALL. And that is also the door that you entered, is that correct?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And over to the right here is the interior view of entrance
door.
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. That is the same door, isn't it?
Mr. FRAZIER. Now, this door, you see right there is that door right
there.
Mr. BALL. In other words, the door in the lower left-hand corner is the
outside door?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. And as you walk through--and this is the door, the outside
door, is shown in the picture on the lower right-hand corner?
Mr. FRAZIER. That is right, right there, that is this same door you are
looking at over here.
Mr. BALL. Then there is an interior door?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. Leading into the interior that is also shown there?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. That is sort of, what is it--a little corridor that you walk
through?
Mr. FRAZIER. I say it is just about that distance from here over to
that man over there.
Mr. BALL. Let's take a look there.
Mr. FRAZIER. It is called the loading zone there.
Mr. BALL. This map shows certain steps up, doesn't it?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. Where is the door that you entered or that he entered.
Mr. FRAZIER. Right here.
Mr. BALL. That is the door. Is that covered, is that area covered with
a ceiling roof?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it is.
Mr. BALL. And this is also walled in, is it?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right. The railroad track runs along here.
Mr. BALL. After you get into this outside shed how did you get into the
first floor of the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr. FRAZIER. Through that door.
Mr. BALL. Through the door there, into the interior door?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. How much of the first floor here is clear so that you can see
anybody there?
Mr. FRAZIER. Roughly say, let's see, just a few feet back, you know
here is the door right here.
Mr. BALL. Whose door?
Mr. FRAZIER. Mr. Shelley's.
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. FRAZIER. Just a few feet back in here is where the bins start, they
run this way.
Mr. BALL. Can you mark in this where the bins start, the place?
Mr. FRAZIER. Here.
Mr. BALL. Just draw a line across, you don't need to draw in the bins
but just where the bins start and we we will know it is the area.
Mr. FRAZIER. Somewhere right in here.
Mr. BALL. Draw the line clear across.
We will mark the line "A" on one side and "B" on the other so that we
can refer to it.
Now, the area between, all the area shown in here from entrance to line
"AB", is clear, is it?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. Now, the line from "AB" to the Elm Street side there are
bins, are they?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. And are those bins man high?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. 6, 7 feet?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. Like I say these bins, we have two or three that
run across this way, like I have this line drawn, and they have broken
spaces, and you can see a man on the other side of these bins because
they are not sealed up in the back.
In other words, you can put books in, say, from this side and go on the
other side and have another. Anyway, we have more like these window
here.
Mr. BALL. The windows on Elm Street?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right. We have some bins running this way, over here,
several bins, two or three over here, and two or three over here.
Mr. BALL. Is this the only entrance to the first floor of the Building,
the one you have shown us?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir, it is not.
Mr. BALL. What other entrance is there?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right here is the main entrance.
Mr. BALL. The main entrance?
Mr. FRAZIER. That is right, coming on through here.
Mr. BALL. There are two entrances. There is a main entrance in the
front of the Building or the Elm Street entrance, and then there is the
door through which you entered the first floor, is that right?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, then we have another.
Mr. BALL. Where?
Mr. FRAZIER. Out over here, let's see if I can find it, where the
garage where we have the truck. Let's see.
Mr. BALL. There is an overhead door here.
Mr. FRAZIER. I see, right through here now, I see right through this
door here we come out right here and we come out in this area right in
here where we have another dock right out in this area right here, in
that area there.