Mr. FRAZIER. Up to the other Depository up there at the corner of
Houston and Main.
Mr. BALL. We have here a map which has been marked as Commission's
Exhibit No. 361.
Mr. FRAZIER. I see.
Mr. BALL. And north is to the bottom of the map.
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Instead of the top, as usually the case.
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. It has two pictures over here, one to the left and one to the
right of the map.
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. Let's take a look at the picture to the right of the map. Do
you recognize that area?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. BALL. What is it?
Mr. FRAZIER. I see that is right there where you say that is the street
going up to the parking lot there.
Mr. BALL. Do you recognize this car?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What car is that?
Mr. FRAZIER. That is my car.
Mr. BALL. Is that where you usually park every day?
Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I would say at the time being when I first started
to work there I first started to park there but now I park on the other
side of the fence there.
Mr. BALL. But that is a picture of the parking lot, is it?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. Where you park is in the parking lot?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. I park inside the fence but what I am talking
about--I park on the different side of the lot.
Mr. BALL. Different side of the same lot?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; we just have one lot there.
Mr. BALL. Do you see the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; right there.
Mr. BALL. And you walked from about the place where your car is parked?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Usually up to the Depository Building?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right, correct.
Mr. BALL. Now, the map to the left, upper left-hand corner of the map,
there is a picture.
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Do you see this area where I point my finger which is marked
"parking lot No. 1."
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What is that?
Mr. FRAZIER. That is the same parking lot we were looking at right here.
Mr. BALL. What route do you walk, which way do you walk when you park
in this parking lot No. 1, to the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. FRAZIER. Do you want me to get up to where I can show it to you?
Mr. BALL. Yes; show it to us.
Mr. FRAZIER. I usually always come up, you know, you can come right,
you see the building right down here, and you notice a series of
railroad tracks, so usually early in the morning, now about 8 o'clock
there is usually not any cars right here, but I say they are switching
back and forth.
Mr. BALL. By "cars" you mean railroad cars?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; they usually start switching around 8 o'clock.
Usually, there are not any cars, it is usually a long train that moves
up pretty soon but I usually move up in this direction here, especially
when it is dry. When it is wet I walk on this because it is harder. But
when it is raining, I usually walk around here, because in this area
right here, when you get up closer to the railroad tracks it has more
trenches, and it gets muddy and slimy and you can get bogged down.
So, when it is bad weather, I usually walk on this side. But I say nine
times out of ten I come up right down here.
Mr. BALL. Let's look at the map. Here is the parking lot here, is that
the parking lot where you usually park?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it is.
Mr. BALL. This is parking lot No. 1.
Mr. FRAZIER. That is parking lot No. 1, isn't it?
Mr. BALL. Right.
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. We will show you this map later, but just to illustrate, how
do you usually, what is the route you usually take, just show us on
the board here, the route you usually take to the Texas School Book
Depository Building in the morning?
Mr. FRAZIER. You mean when I am coming off of the freeway?
Mr. BALL. After you park here.
Mr. FRAZIER. You know right here, you say like the car, you notice that
little house right there, I assume you have checked off. You know like
I was telling you now. I usually park over in this corner. But at the
time I parked right there. But anyway, there is a little cyclone fence
and this was the series of railroad tracks, I was talking to you about.
Mr. BALL. That is right.
Mr. FRAZIER. I usually come down here.
Mr. BALL. Munger Street?
Mr. FRAZIER. That is right, and usually cross along the railroad tracks
and come up here.
Mr. BALL. Houston Street?
Mr. FRAZIER. Houston runs into it, now they are doing some work across
the tracks and you can't go any further than the tracks, right along
here this line, cyclone, but that type of fence and I usually walk
right up, you know.
Mr. BALL. To the buildings?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. And enter the rear of the building?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Now, we call it a loading zone out there, dock area.
Mr. BALL. Fine.
Did anyone else ride with you in the morning, usually did anyone else
ride with you in the morning from home to work?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; they didn't.
Mr. BALL. Did anybody ride with you from work to home?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; they didn't.
Mr. BALL. When did you first hear of Lee Harvey Oswald, first hear the
name?
Mr. FRAZIER. I first heard, I never really did know his name, we just
called him Lee around there. But the first time I ever saw him was the
first day he come to work.
Mr. BALL. Had you heard he was coming to work before he came to work?
Mr. FRAZIER. I will say, you know, talking back and forth with the
bossman all the time and from being around and getting along real fine
and so he told me, I assume the day after he hired him that he was
going to have him come in on Monday and he asked me had I ever seen him
and I told him then no; I had never seen him.
(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)
Mr. BALL. Had your sister told you that this fellow Lee was coming to
work?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; she did. She said one afternoon when I went home she
told me she found out from one of the neighbors there he came over for
that interview with Mr. Truly and Mr. Truly had hired him.
Mr. BALL. You heard that from your sister?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Before you saw him?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right, before I saw him.
Mr. BALL. When you first saw him was it a Monday morning?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; it was.
Mr. BALL. Do you have any idea of the date itself, do you have any
memory of the date when you first saw him?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. BALL. Was it sometime around the middle of October, do you think,
would that be close to it?
Mr. FRAZIER. It could have been because it was sometime in October
because I remember I went to work there on the 13th and I had been
working there, 4 or 5 weeks and then he come there.
Mr. BALL. Where was he when you first saw him?
Mr. FRAZIER. I first saw him he was--we have a table not as large as
this, but just about half as large as this, and we have just like you
walk up to it where I am sitting over here and we have four or five
boxes there and we have different names on it, you know, for different
publishing companies, and he was there getting some orders, and I say,
as well as I remember, I said, the foreman there was getting him out
some real easy orders. Some of the orders we have are real easy to
fill, easier than the others, you don't have to know so much about the
textbooks to be able to fill them and he was getting some of them easy
ones out to start on, when we have a great number of them, you see, the
little pamphlet type books and all we do is count them out and read the
invoice number.
Mr. BALL. What was the name of the foreman showing him?
Mr. FRAZIER. You mean the foreman, that was Mr. Shelly.
Mr. BALL. S-h-e-d?
Mr. FRAZIER. S-h-e-l-l-y.
Mr. BALL. Shelly.
What floor was this on?
Mr. FRAZIER. It was on the first floor there.
Mr. BALL. Did Shelly introduce you to him or did you go up and shake
hands with him?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't. I remember, I knew, you know that he
was going to be coming to work so naturally I hadn't been there very
long, you know, living in Dallas and so I wanted to make friends with
everybody I could, because you know yourself friendship is something
you can't buy with money and you always need friends, so I went up and
introduced himself to myself, and he told me his name was Lee and I
said "We are glad to have you."
We got talking back and forth and he come to find out I knew his wife
was staying down there at the time with this other woman and so I
thought he would go out there and I said, "Are you going to be going
home this afternoon?"
And he told me then, he told me that he didn't have a car, you know,
and so I told him, I said, "Well, I live out there in Irving,"--I found
out he lived out there and so I said, "Any time you want to go just let
me know."
So I thought he would go home every day like most men do but he told me
no, that he wouldn't go home every day and then he asked me could he
ride home say like Friday afternoon on weekends and come back on Monday
morning and I told him that would be just fine with me.
I told him if he wanted a ride any other time just let me know before
I go off and leave him because when it comes to quitting time some of
these guys, you know, some of them mess around the bathroom and some of
them quit early and some of them like that and some leave at different
times than others.
But I said from talking to him then, I say, he just wanted to ride home
on weekends with me and I said that was fine.
Mr. BALL. Did he say at that time he was living in Dallas, he had a
room in Dallas?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; he did. He had an apartment.
Mr. BALL. Did he say where?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't. He just said he had an apartment over
in Dallas.
Mr. BALL. Had you known his wife before that? Had you ever met his
wife, Marina Oswald?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I never had.
Mr. BALL. Had you heard that a Russian girl was staying there in the
neighborhood?
Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say about this time I met him, you know, I knew
that at the time then but I didn't think anything about it because, you
know, the people travel from one country to the next all the time.
Mr. BALL. Did you know Mrs. Paine, Ruth Paine?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't until all this had happened because I
will be frank with you, people around there, I say, they just don't
make friends very easy. I say you can have somebody living three doors
from you and you can live a couple of years and you still might not
know the name.
Mr. BALL. And you had never met Mrs. Ruth Paine before the day you met
Lee Oswald?
Mr. FRAZIER. No.
Mr. BALL. What kind of work did Lee do, what kind of work was assigned
to him?
Mr. FRAZIER. He filled orders like I do and several other men.
Mr. BALL. How many order fillers were there employed at that time?
Mr. FRAZIER. Oh, I would say roughly around five, six at that time.
Because about the time we was real busy, the busy season. I come there,
you know, and they was going pretty good when I went to work there and
I say we were still going pretty good when he come to work there.
We had a lot of work to do and usually when we have a lot of work to do
we have more order fillers.
Mr. BALL. Did he ride home with you in your car on weekends?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; he did.
Mr. BALL. On Friday nights.
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. From that time until November 22, did he ride home with you
every weekend?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he did every weekend but one.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember that date?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. BALL. In the statement you made I believe you said it was the 16th
and 17th of November. I am just reminding you of that.
Does it refresh your memory any?
Mr. FRAZIER. I remember one weekend, I say, right now I can't recall
because just to be frank with you I couldn't tell you roughly; I say I
might have at that time but I say it slipped my mind but the thing is I
do know he rode home with me every weekend up to that but one.
Mr. BALL. And why did--did he tell you why he wasn't going to ride home
that weekend?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, he did. He said he was working on his driving license
and he was going to go take a driving test.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever ask him afterward if he had taken his driver's
test?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I never did. I assumed that he had taken it and
passed it what part of the test he was taking.
Most men do, I say, they usually work at it, study at it good enough so
they don't flunk out.
Representative FORD. Do you have to get a learner's permit in Texas
before you can get a driver's permit?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I say, you don't. Just two steps to it. I say,
first no matter what age you are; say, when you have to be at least 14
is about the youngest you can get it in Texas and then you have to take
a DE, Driver's Education, if you are going to school but otherwise,
the age is 16 and you just go around to the driving license bureau
there, they have an office in most any town of any size in Texas, and
you just go in and see the driving license man and just tell him that
you plan to take your driving test and you would like to have the auto
manual, and the manual covers any laws and so forth in the State of
Texas, and you can either study for your operator's or your commercial
and you pick out which one you want, and you study up for it and then
he is there, he tells you what days he is in his office, and so he goes
there a certain time and he gives you several sheets of paper, a quiz
and you answer them questions, and if you--you have to make a grade of
70 on it to pass and if you make a grade of 70 or above, well, I say,
in another week or two you go down there and you say like for instance
if you are going to want a driver's license for a car----
Representative FORD. Did Lee ever ask you or did Lee ever tell you
whether he had ever actually applied for a driver's license?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he never had, except I told you that weekend that
he said he was going down to take his driving test, and so I knew from
being in the State of Texas that you have to know something; you have
to have the manuals and so forth to study up on it. Or there isn't any
use going down there if you don't know the rules because you are not
wasting any time but your own.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember whether or not one weekend that he didn't
go down with you but he rode back with you, say, on the Armistice Day
holiday? Do you remember?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. BALL. Your memory is that he went, he rode home with you every
Friday and came back the following Monday?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Except this one weekend?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right, that is what I say. If he went home with me on
Friday afternoon he always rode back with me on Monday morning. It
wasn't no added job when he would come with me on the weekend. He would
ride home with me on Friday and he would come back with me on Monday.
Mr. BALL. Did he ever tell you that he had or had not applied for a
driver's license?
Mr. FRAZIER. No; he had not except he told me he was going down to take
it.
Mr. BALL. He never told you that he had or had not?
Mr. FRAZIER. No.
Mr. BALL. And he never told you whether he had obtained a driver's
license?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to him on whether or not he could drive a
car, knew how to drive a car?
Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say, I believe the first afternoon, the first time
we was going home and we were talking about that and he said he was
working on his driving license then, and then naturally like I told you
several weeks later, then he told me he was going to take his driving
test and I assumed he could drive a car being as old as he was because
most everybody in the State of Texas by the time you are my age if you
can't drive a car something is wrong with you.
Mr. BALL. He did never say whether he could or couldn't?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. Did he ever ask you about the parts of a car?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't believe he did.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember any conversation when he asked you what the
clutch was?
Mr. FRAZIER. Oh, yes. We got talking about that. He noticed, you know,
most cars as old as mine, you know most of them are standard shift,
and when I bought this old car it kind of fooled me it had automatic
transmission on it so we got talking about it on the way home driving
home and I told him that I really prefer a standard because you know,
they are a lot easier to work on and you know, when an automatic goes
dead it goes dead, there is no rolling a couple of feet and jumping on
the clutch and starting when the battery is down.
And I remember he said it was a little bit different to drive with a
clutch. I said, if you are not used to it, but if you get used to it.
You have to find a friction point on any car, even on Chevrolet or
Ford, you know yourself the friction points on a clutch and the brakes
are different adjusted on every car you drive.
And I told you there is nothing you do. You just have to get used to
a car of the individual, you can drive one car to do it, and you can
drive another one it may take you a couple of days to get used to it.
Mr. BALL. He is the one who mentioned the clutch, is he, that you
didn't have a clutch?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.