Mr. SPECTER. When you say "in here," I will get a black pencil here and
see if we can draw a circle around the area where you have described
the echo effect?
Mr. ROWLAND. The echo effect felt as though it came from this general
vicinity.
Mr. SPECTER. Mark that with the letter "C" in the center of your circle.
(Witness marking.)
Mr. SPECTER. Now, as to the second shot, did you have any impression as
to the point of origin or source?
Mr. ROWLAND. The same point or very close to it.
Mr. SPECTER. And how about the third shot?
Mr. ROWLAND. Very close to the same position.
Mr. SPECTER. Where did you look, if you recall, after you heard the
first shot, in what direction?
Mr. ROWLAND. We were standing here at position "B." At the sound of the
second report, I proceeded across the street. My wife was very anxious
to find out what was going on. I proceeded to cross the street like
this.
Mr. SPECTER. Indicating you were--she was pulling you ahead?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. She was very anxious to find out what was going on.
Mr. SPECTER. That was at the sound of the second report?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes, it was.
Mr. SPECTER. And will you mark with this black pencil, with the letter
"D," where you went to, as she pulled you across the street?
Mr. ROWLAND. We crossed the street in this area, proceeded down the
sidewalk, around here, there was quite a bit of crowd, people were
running.
Mr. SPECTER. Where were you at the time that you heard the second
report?
Mr. ROWLAND. At the second report we were approximately at the curb,
out from the curb, we were off the sidewalk.
Mr. SPECTER. At point "V"?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. How about the third shot, where were you then?
Mr. ROWLAND. At the third shot I was in this vicinity halfway to where
we crossed the street to the end of the block.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you indicate with the letter "D" where you were at
the time of the third shot?
(Witness marking.)
Mr. SPECTER. Where did you look when you heard the third report?
Mr. ROWLAND. Well, we were trying to actually see the President's car,
that is what my wife was trying to do, and then I decided I might as
well give in to her.
Mr. SPECTER. After the shots occurred, did you ever look back at the
Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. ROWLAND. No; I did not. In fact, I went over toward the scene of
the railroad yards myself.
Mr. SPECTER. Why did you not look back at the Texas School Book
Depository Building in view of the fact that you had seen a man with a
rifle up there earlier in the day?
Mr. ROWLAND. I don't remember. It was mostly due to the confusion, and
then the fact that it sounded like it came from this area "C," and that
all the officers, enforcement officers, were converging on that area,
and I just didn't pay any attention to it at that time.
Mr. SPECTER. How many officers were converging on that area, to the
best of your ability to recollect and estimate?
Mr. ROWLAND. I think it would be a very good estimation of 50, maybe
more.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know how fast the President's automobile was
driving as it proceeded in front of you when you were standing at
position "B"?
Mr. ROWLAND. Very slow pace, 5, 10 miles an hour.
Mr. SPECTER. When, if at all, did you first report what you had
observed in the Texas School Book Depository Building about the man
with the rifle to anyone in an official position?
Mr. ROWLAND. That was approximately 15 minutes after the third report
that I went to an officer, he was a plainclothesman who was there
combing the area, close to position "C," looking for footprints and
such as this, some lady said someone jumped off one of the colonnades
and started running, there was an officer looking in this area for
footprints and such as this.
Mr. SPECTER. Was that lady ever identified to you?
Mr. ROWLAND. No; I do not remember his name. He introduced himself and
showed me his ID.
Mr. SPECTER. I mean the lady you talked about.
Mr. ROWLAND. No; I don't.
Mr. SPECTER. Now as to the officer to whom you made a report, was he a
State, City or Federal official, if you know?
Mr. ROWLAND. It was a Dallas detective.
Mr. SPECTER. And did you give him a statement or what procedure did he
follow?
Mr. ROWLAND. It happened such as this: He was looking in this area for
footprints or any visible marks. I started looking around also. I found
a fountain pen that someone had probably dropped during the confusion
or fell out of their pocket when they fell on the ground or such. I
picked it up and handed it to him. I had on gloves, I wasn't to mess up
the fingerprints because it very possibly could have fallen out of the
pocket of the man who supposedly had jumped down.
Mr. SPECTER. You were wearing gloves on that day?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Was it a chilly day?
Mr. ROWLAND. The sun was shining, it was a fair day but the wind was
blowing and it was breezy.
Mr. SPECTER. Was it cold enough to have gloves?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I had on my overcoat and my wife had a fairly heavy
coat.
Mr. SPECTER. Proceed, and tell us what you did.
Mr. ROWLAND. I handed this pen to the officer and I started thinking
and I went to him and told him again just before the motorcade came
I saw a man in the building with a rifle, and he immediately took me
to Sheriff Decker which, in turn, asked two other deputies to take
me to his office. We went there to his office. There was quite a few
reporters around, such as this. They took my wife and I to a back room
and shut us off completely from the reporters and everyone. There was
no one in that room for 4 hours but this sheriff and a FBI agent, Agent
Sorrels, and a stenographer, and I think another lady and a man that
had seen another man carrying a rifle in a case on the other end of
town earlier prior to this time.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you sure there was a court reporter present?
Mr. ROWLAND. It was one of the secretaries from the office of the
sheriff, stenographer who was taking, using an electric typewriter
every time.