Mr. GREER. These.
Mr. SPECTER. The long cracks which radiate off from the center?
Mr. GREER. That is right. This was the only cracks that I could see was
this star-type fragment.
Mr. SPECTER. There you are indicating what would be described as the
principal point of contact which was present when you observed it on
November 23?
Mr. GREER. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Give me your best estimate on the diameter of the cracking
of the windshield as it existed on November 23?
Mr. GREER. To the best of my estimate it would be these little stars
that are here, the little shatters that are here.
Mr. SPECTER. Would it be fair to say that you are indicating a circle
with a circumference or diameter of approximately an inch to an inch
and a half?
Mr. GREER. I don't think--it probably would be an inch. The whole
diameter.
Mr. SPECTER. Approximately 1 inch as you estimate it?
Mr. GREER. Yes, sir.
Representative BOGGS. Excuse me, did you say you did not notice this
crack from the time that you drove the car after the shooting to the
hospital?
Mr. GREER. No, sir; I had flags on the car and you know they were
waving at a high rate of speed and you have the Presidential flag and
the American flag in front of you there; you know when you are going
at a fast speed you get a lot of, well, I don't know how you would say
it, it attracts you so much that I didn't have any recollection of what
happened on the windshield.
Representative BOGGS. There was no glass or anything that spattered on
you in any way?
Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't feel anything at all. I didn't feel a
thing hit me. I was kind of shocked at the time, I guess anything
could have and I wouldn't have known what hit me. You are tense, I was
pretty tense, and naturally my thoughts were the hospital, and how fast
I could get there, and probably I could have been injured and not even
known I was injured. I was in that position.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Greer, what is your best estimate and recollection of
the time that the shooting occurred?
Mr. GREER. Well, Mr. Kellerman saying 12:30 to me makes me--that stays
in my mind foremost, and that was when we had just left the scene of
the shooting, a few seconds or a second or two from it. That is why
that 12:30 stays in my mind, him saying 12:30 to me right after the
shooting, he said. His watch may not have been correct but that is what
he said to me at the time.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the distance between the
point where the assassination occurred and Parkland Hospital?
Mr. GREER. No, sir; I haven't. It seemed like endless miles and
probably wasn't very far, but it seemed like to me it was endless
getting there. I was----
Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to give us an estimate with reasonable
accuracy on the time it took?
Mr. GREER. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. From the time it took from the point of the shooting until
you arrived at Parkland Hospital?
Mr. GREER. I didn't check anything but I thought that probably it
would probably be 6 or 8 minutes. I am not too sure, somewhere in the
vicinity of 5 and 10 minutes. I would have to guess at that.
Mr. SPECTER. How did you know which entrance of the hospital to go to?
Mr. GREER. I followed the car that was in front of me right to where he
stopped and I was right at the entrance. The car stopped and I stopped
alongside of him.
Mr. SPECTER. Which entrance was that?
Mr. GREER. It seems, I think it was the emergency entrance, I am almost
sure. It was like a bay that you could pull in and out of. It looked
like an ambulance entrance.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe with respect to President Kennedy's
condition on arrival at the Parkland Hospital?
Mr. GREER. To the best of my knowledge he was laying, it seemed across
Mrs. Kennedy, looked like laying across her lap or in front of her, I
am not too sure which, I opened the doors--the doors were opened before
I got to it, someone else had opened the doors and they were trying to
get Connally out, and Mrs. Connally out of the seats so they could get
to the President.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe about the President with respect to
his wounds?
Mr. GREER. His head was all shot, this whole part was all a matter of
blood like he had been hit.
Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the top and right rear side of the head?
Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; it looked like that was all blown off.
Mr. SPECTER. Yes.
Mr. GREER. I run around the front of the car and got hold of a
stretcher or thing and I got hold of it to keep it steady while they
lifted the President's body onto it and then I helped pull the front
end of it into the emergency room.
Mr. SPECTER. Who was first removed from the automobile?
Mr. GREER. Governor Connally was first removed. He was on the jump
seats.
Mr. SPECTER. And what, if anything, did you observe as to Governor
Connally's condition on arrival at Parkland Hospital?
Mr. GREER. The best of my recollection he was lying across the seat
toward Mrs. Connally when they picked him up and got him out of the
car. And he was rushed in first into the hospital. That is when I
got the stretcher to bring it, to hold it until they would get the
President on it, on the right side of the car. They took him out on the
side he was sitting on, that side of the car.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to make any personal observation about
Governor Connally's specific wound?
Mr. GREER. No, sir. I didn't know how badly anyone really was injured.
I had great thoughts the President was still living and that was the
only thing I was thinking about was to get them in quick.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe anything specific which led you to the
conclusion that the President was still living?
Mr. GREER. No, sir. When he was in the emergency room and I was there,
I did see his chest expand and move, the movement of the chest a time
or so.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to observe any wound on the front side of
the President?
Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't, I never seen any on the front side of the
President. The only thing I saw was on the head. I didn't know at the
time of any other injuries on him.
Mr. SPECTER. As to the front side of the President's body, were you
able to observe any hole or tear in either his shirt or tie?
Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't and I brought them back, those things,
and I didn't see them at the time. I probably didn't inspect them very
closely but they were handed to me in a paper bag to bring back.
Mr. SPECTER. When did you acquire custody and possession of those items
of clothing?
Mr. GREER. After they had made the President's body ready for removal,
I was in the emergency room, and a nurse got two shopping bags and I
held them and she put the President's suit, his belongings into the
two bags including his shoes and socks, and his pants and jacket which
they had torn and the shirt they had torn, they had torn it to take it
off him, and the nurse put these into the two bags and I got custody of
them right then from the nurse at the emergency room.
Mr. SPECTER. Were there any other items of wearing apparel such as
shorts or undershirt?
Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; his shorts and that brace he wore, whatever it
was, and his sox and shoes, and shirt, and his trousers, and his suit
coat.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to state with certainty that there was no
undershirt?
Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; there was no undershirt. I am sure there was no
undershirt. I would have to say it to the best of my recollection,
there was no undershirt. I had been with him so many times and I knew
he didn't normally wear an undershirt because I had heard him one time
previously, I offered him a coat.
He said, "I have an undershirt on today," it was at some ballgame. He
normally didn't wear an undershirt.
Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe with more particularity the brace you
just said he was wearing?
Mr. GREER. It looked like a, I would say, a corset-type brace, maybe 6
inches wide, he wore it around his, down low around his, haunches, a
little lower than the waist, probably, just probably below his belt he
wore it there. It was something he normally wore, and I would guess,
but I would say it was of a soft, maybe a kind of corset-type material,
maybe elastic or something like that support.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Greer, when your automobile arrived at Parkland, was
there any medical individual awaiting your arrival?
Mr. GREER. I can't remember--there were--who brought the stretchers
out. There were some hospital people there, but who they were, I never
got--I couldn't identify or knew who they were. There were some medical
people there; yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Where were they when you first saw hospital personnel?
Mr. GREER. When I pulled into the ambulance entrance there were some
people there on the right-hand side with these stretchers that they had
rushed out. I don't know just who they were from the hospital staff.
There was a great deal of confusion because everyone was trying to
help, the agents were there.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to state whether there was a doctor in
attendance at that time?
Mr. GREER. No, sir; I couldn't state that.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you do after your arrival at Parkland Hospital?
Mr. GREER. I helped pull it, take the stretcher into the emergency room
that he was on. It is on wheels, and I helped to take that in, and I
stayed inside the door of the emergency room most of the time while
they were, the doctors were, working on the President's body.
Mr. SPECTER. How many doctors were working on him in the emergency room?
Mr. GREER. There were, between nurses and doctors. I would estimate
there were, between 10 or 12 people, maybe not that many, 8 to 10
people in and out of that room. I don't know how many of them were
doctors, attendants, nurses, and things like that with white jackets
and they would come in and say, "I am doctor so-and-so."
Mr. SPECTER. How long were they working on him there in the emergency
room?
Mr. GREER. I couldn't remember the time.
Mr. SPECTER. You say you were with him most of the time?
Mr. GREER. I was inside the door. I know, I kept the door closed most
of the time, let doctors and nurses in and out while he was--while they
were working on him. I stayed inside the emergency room door.
Mr. SPECTER. Was there any special reason for you to leave part of the
time?
Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't go any farther away than outside the door.
Mr. SPECTER. Were there any other Secret Service agents inside the
emergency room at that time?
Mr. GREER. Not at that time; I was inside the door.
Mr. SPECTER. Where was Mrs. Kennedy at this time?
Mr. GREER. Mrs. Kennedy was outside the door. They got her a chair out
there for a little while and then she insisted on coming in and she got
in the corner for a little while there and stayed there a little while
and I don't quite remember the time she went over to his body but she
did go over there, and I don't remember how far along the doctors had
been on him when that happened.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to overhear any of the conversations among
the doctors in the emergency room?
Mr. GREER. I don't understand anything that they were discussing at all.
Mr. SPECTER. Did a priest or more than one priest come upon the scene?
Mr. GREER. I believe there were two. To the best of my recollection
there eventually was two.
Mr. SPECTER. How long after President Kennedy arrived at the emergency
room did the priest arrive, if you recollect?
Mr. GREER. No, sir; I wouldn't have any idea, it seemed to me it was
quite a little while in the matter, probably minutes.
Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how long did the priests stay?
Mr. GREER. I don't remember that, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Did they say anything on leaving or in entering?
Mr. GREER. Not that I heard of personally. I was outside the room when
the priest was in there. I wasn't in the emergency room while he was in.
Mr. SPECTER. When did you find that the President had died?
Mr. GREER. When the priest was in to give him the last rites then I
knew that.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any reasonably close estimate on when the
President did die?
Mr. GREER. No, sir; I haven't right off. I would have to look at some
reports.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you do after the President was pronounced dead?
Mr. GREER. We stayed there until everything was settled up. I believe
there was a judge came in there and I think, someone came in and made
the decisions on removing the body and the casket was brought in, and
the body was put in the casket. I had this, his clothing, I kept it in
my hand at all times, all the time. Then I went, when they removed the
casket from the emergency room, I was in front of it going out to make
a path to get it to the ambulance.
So, I helped get it into the ambulance and then I drove a car with some
agents and some people right behind the ambulance to Love Field back to
the airport again and helped to get the casket aboard the airplane.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you present at the swearing in of President Johnson?
Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; I was--we were all asked to come back into the
state room but I wasn't in too close. I was in the main part of the
plane, as close as I could get to it, yes.
Mr. SPECTER. How did you personally return to Washington, D.C.?
Mr. GREER. I returned on Air Force 1 with the President's remains.
Mr. SPECTER. And at approximately what time did you leave Dallas to fly
back?
Mr. GREER. I would have to look in my reports to say exactly. I would
have to go back on the times. Two something but I don't remember.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any idea of the time you arrived in the
Washington area?
Mr. GREER. I believe it was 6 or 6:15. As I say I have it in my reports
but I haven't looked at the times recently.
Mr. SPECTER. Where did you arrive in the Washington area?
Mr. GREER. At Andrews Air Force Base.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you do next in connection with this matter?
Mr. GREER. I helped to get the casket out of the plane, and put it into
a Navy ambulance and then I drove that Navy ambulance to Bethesda Naval
Center.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you do upon arriving at the Bethesda Naval Center?
Mr. GREER. I stayed in, while the autopsy was being performed, I stayed
in the autopsy room with Mr. Kellerman and the doctors and the people
who were in there. I stayed in there and observed what was necessary
that I could do.
Mr. SPECTER. Were any Secret Service Agents present besides you and Mr.
Kellerman?
Mr. GREER. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. At the autopsy?
Mr. GREER. There may have been, Mr. Hill may have come in and out but
he didn't stay there. Mr. Kellerman and I stayed permanently the whole
time there. There may have been, Mr. Hill may have come in there and
have gone back out but he didn't stay in there.
Mr. SPECTER. During the course of the autopsy did you hear any doctor
say anything about the wound on the right side of Mr. Kennedy's back?
Mr. GREER. That was the first time that I had ever seen it, when the
doctors were performing the autopsy, they saw this hole in the right
shoulder or back of the head, and in the back, and that was the first
I had known that he was ever shot there, and they brought it to our
attention or discussed it there a little bit.
Mr. SPECTER. What conversation was there concerning the wound on the
right back?
Mr. GREER. Well, the doctors and people who were performing the
autopsy, when they turned the body apparently over they discovered that
this wound was in the back, and they thought that they probably could
get a bullet out of there, and it took a lot of--then they took more
X-rays, they took a lot of X-rays, we looked at them and couldn't find
the trace of any bullet anywhere in the X-rays at all, nothing showed
on the X-rays where this bullet or lead could have gone.
Mr. SPECTER. Approximately where in the President's back was the bullet
hole?
Mr. GREER. It was, to the best of my recollection it was, back here,
just in the soft part of that shoulder.
Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the upper right shoulder area?
Mr. GREER. Upper right, yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Was there any effort made to probe that wound by any
doctor?
Mr. GREER. I believe, yes, I believe the doctors probed to see if they
could find that there was a bullet there.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know which doctor that was?
Mr. GREER. No, sir; I don't, I don't have their names at this time.
Mr. SPECTER. Did any doctor make any statement about the results of his
probing effort?
Mr. GREER. I questioned one of the doctors in there about that, and
when we found out that they had found a bullet in Dallas, I questioned
the doctor about it and he said if they were using pressure on the
chest that it could very well have been, come back out, where it went
in at, that is what they said at the time.
(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)
Mr. SPECTER. Was anything said about any channel being present in the
body for the bullet to have gone on through the back?
Mr. GREER. No, sir; I hadn't heard anything like that, any trace of it
going on through.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you just mention, Mr. Greer, a hole in the President's
head in addition to the large area of the skull which was shot away?
Mr. GREER. No. I had just seen that, you know, the head was damaged in
all this part of it but I believe looking at the X-rays, I looked at
the X-rays when they were taken in the autopsy room, and the person who
does that type work showed us the trace of it because there would be
little specks of lead where the bullet had come from here and it came
to the--they showed where it didn't come on through. It came to a sinus
cavity or something they said, over the eye.
Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the right eye.
Mr. GREER. I may be wrong.
Mr. SPECTER. You don't know which eye?
Mr. GREER. I don't know which eye, I may be wrong. But they showed us
the trace of it coming through but there were very little small specks
on the X-rays that these professionals knew what course that the bullet
had taken, the lead.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe in very general terms what injury you
observed as to the President's head during the course of the autopsy?
Mr. GREER. I would--to the best of my recollection it was in this part
of the head right here.
Mr. SPECTER. Upper right?
Mr. GREER. Upper right side.
Mr. SPECTER. Upper right side, going toward the rear.
And what was the condition of the skull at that point?
Mr. GREER. The skull was completely--this part was completely gone.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, aside from that opening which you have described and
you have indicated a circle with a diameter of approximately 5 inches,
would you say that is about what you have indicated there?
Mr. GREER. Approximately I would say 5 inches; yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any other opening or hole of any sort in
the head itself?
Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't. No other one.
Mr. SPECTER. Specifically did you observe a hole which would be below
the large area of skull which was absent?
Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to look in the back of the head
immediately below where the skull was missing?
Mr. GREER. No; I can't remember even examining the head that close at
that time.
Mr. SPECTER. When President Kennedy was being treated in the emergency
room at Parkland Hospital, were any pictures or X-rays taken of him
there?
Mr. GREER. No, sir; not that I know of. I didn't see any being taken.
Mr. SPECTER. Was he ever turned over that you observed while being
treated at Parkland Hospital?
Mr. GREER. No, sir. I can't recollect him ever being turned over.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any recollection that he was in fact not
turned over?
Mr. GREER. No, sir; I couldn't even say. I didn't see them turn him
over in any way in my vision, although my back was to him quite often
and because I was attending to the door and they could have done it.
Mr. SPECTER. Was he on a stretcher at the time he was being worked on
at Parkland Hospital?
Mr. GREER. I can't remember whether they changed him from a stretcher
to a table. I am not sure on that.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Greer, as to the return of the President's automobile
to Washington, do you know how that was accomplished?
Mr. GREER. It was driven to Love Field, and put aboard the same C-130
it was taken out on and flown back to Andrews Air Force Base.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know when it was returned from Dallas to the
Washington area?
Mr. GREER. I believe it was returned shortly after, it left shortly
after, the President's plane left, was flown back.
Mr. SPECTER. I hand you two photographs marked Commission Exhibit No.
352 and Commission Exhibit No. 353.
Do those photographs represent the condition of the back seat of the
President's car at some time?
Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; they do.
Mr. SPECTER. And at what time do those pictures look just as the back
seat of the President's car looked?
Mr. GREER. It looked like that when it came back from Dallas.
Mr. SPECTER. Did it look like that immediately after President Kennedy
was removed from the back seat?
Mr. GREER. I wasn't there any more, sir. I was with the President after
they lifted him out. I didn't see the car after he had been removed.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe the back seat of the car at any time
from the time you arrived at Parkland Hospital until you observed the
automobile in Washington?
Mr. GREER. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. On November 23?
Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. SPECTER. By the way, Mr. Greer, how much, approximately, does or
did the President's automobile weigh?
Mr. GREER. It weighed between--well, for flight reason we said 8,000,
but it wasn't that much. It probably was 7,500. We had extra weight on
it.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to tell the Commission the dimensions of the
automobile, indicating its length?
Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. It is 21 feet 8 inches long.
Mr. SPECTER. And how wide?
Mr. GREER. I would have to go back for the width on it. I have it all
in black and white in the office, but I haven't got it with me in my
head right now; I am sorry.
Mr. SPECTER. Could three people sit comfortably in the front seat of
the automobile?
Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; it was wide enough for three. We many times had an
aide in there; many times, an aide rode in the front.
Mr. SPECTER. Was it as wide or wider than, say, a Cadillac automobile?
Mr. GREER. No, sir; it would be probably the same width.
Representative BOGGS. Was that car specially made for the President?
Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; it was a specially built car.
Representative BOGGS. Was it a Lincoln Continental?
Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; a Lincoln Continental.
Representative BOGGS. How did it differ from the ordinary Lincoln?
Mr. GREER. Well, Lincoln doesn't make a seven-passenger car, and this
was a seven-passenger car. The back seat on this car would raise 8
inches. It was electric, and you could lift, you could raise, the seat
up 8 inches from the ground, from the floorboards. It had a little step
that went with it. The President could raise it up and down himself. He
had a button alongside that would cause it to go up and down when the
top wasn't down. It wouldn't go up and down when the top was down. But
when it was off he could raise it up or down, and it would be above the
other seat.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether the seat was actually raised at the
time of the assassination?
Mr. GREER. No, sir; I couldn't say right off. I don't believe it was,
but I wouldn't know.
Mr. SPECTER. Going back to the shots themselves, Mr. Greer, do you have
any reaction as to the direction from which the shots came?
Mr. GREER. They sounded like they were behind me, to the right rear of
me.
Mr. SPECTER. Would that be as to all three shots?
Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. They sounded, everything sounded, behind me, to
me. That was my thought, train of thought, that they were behind me.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever had any reaction or thought at any time
since the assassination that the shots came from the front of the car?
Mr. GREER. No, sir; I had never even the least thought that they could
come. There was no thought in my mind other than that they were behind
me.
Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Boggs, are there any questions you would like
to ask the agent?
Representative BOGGS. I don't think so, Mr. Chairman.
The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Ford.
Representative FORD. Did you ever have any thought there were more than
three shots?
Mr. GREER. No, sir; I never did.
Representative FORD. Did you positively identify the fact that there
were one, two, three, or was there one, and then a delay, and then a
flurry?
Mr. GREER. To the best of my recollection, Congressman, was that the
last two were closer together than the first one. It seemed like the
first one, and then there was, you know, bang, bang, just right behind
it almost. The two seemed, the last two seemed, closer to me than the
other.
Representative BOGGS. Did you speed up after you heard the first shot?
Mr. GREER. After I heard the second. The first one didn't sink into me,
didn't give me the thought that it was a shot. I thought it was the
backfire of a motorcycle. But when I heard the second one and glanced
over my shoulder, I knew something was wrong then. I didn't know how
bad anyone was injured or anything, but I knew there was something
wrong, and right away after the second one I accelerated as fast as I
could.
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Craig, would you like to ask any questions?
Mr. CRAIG. Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice.
With respect to the position of the President's car that you were
driving as it approached the underpass, you state now that you couldn't
fix any specific distance. But would you say it was less than a mile
that the President's car was from the overpass?
Mr. GREER. Oh, definitely. I couldn't say in feet or yards, but it was
within--it was feet. I would say probably a hundred or 200 feet. It
could be within that; it was definitely right up close to me, but I----
Mr. CRAIG. With respect to your vision, was it unobstructed down the
roadway, looking at the overpass?
Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; there were no obstructions in the road that I
could see.
Mr. CRAIG. As I recall your testimony, you were actually observing the
overpass to see if there was any person there.
Mr. GREER. People up there at that time I would be doubtful of going
underneath.
Mr. CRAIG. Yes, sir. And you say now you do not recollect that you saw
anyone there?
Mr. GREER. Yes, sir.
Mr. CRAIG. You said also, I believe, that it was some time now since
you made that observation. Did you make any report of any kind with
respect to anyone being on the overpass immediately after this incident?
Mr. GREER. No, sir.
Mr. CRAIG. You made no written report to anybody as to whether or not
there were people on the overpass or were not people?
Mr. GREER. No, sir; I haven't.
Mr. CRAIG. Do you believe if you had observed people on the overpass at
that time you would now remember it?
Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; I believe I would; yes, sir.
Mr. CRAIG. If you had observed people on the overpass as you proceeded
toward it, and they were other than a policeman or policemen or some
other law-enforcement agent, what would you have done?
Mr. GREER. Well, I try never to go underneath a bridge if there
are people up over it, if there are people who I don't know as law
enforcement. I try not to go underneath them. I will probably veer to
one side of them at any time. That is a matter of our training, that
we try not to go underneath anyone with an open car where anyone could
drop something.
Mr. CRAIG. Would you ever stop, if necessary, if you thought there were
people up there that you couldn't veer around?
Mr. GREER. If there was any danger there I would have to either change
my way of traveling. I have never had it happen, and never had any
reason to, but we try, I try, not to go underneath a group of people
standing on any overpass at any time. I try to move over, if the
condition permits me to. Sometimes, when the road is too narrow, I
couldn't. But that is part of our procedure, I think, to see that no
one is on an overpass.
Mr. CRAIG. That is all.