Mr. KELLERMAN. Between the second and third shot.
Senator COOPER. Might I ask a question there?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes.
Senator COOPER. A few minutes ago you said in response to a question
that when you spoke to the driver the car leaped forward from an
acceleration immediately. Did that acceleration occur before the second
shot was fired?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. Just about the time that it came in.
Senator COOPER. About the time it came in?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.
Senator COOPER. Not before?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No.
Senator COOPER. One other question: You said the flurry of shots came
in the car. You were leaning forward talking to the driver after the
first shot. What made you aware of a flurry of shots?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Senator, between all the matter that was--between all
the matter that was blown off from an injured person, this stuff all
came over.
Senator COOPER. What was that?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Body matter; flesh.
Senator COOPER. When you were speaking of a flurry of shots, was
there a longer interval between the first shot and the second shot as
compared to the interval between the second shot and the third shot?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. When did you first notice the substance which you have
described as body matter?
Mr. KELLERMAN. When I got to the hospital, sir, it was all over my coat.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice it flying past you at any time prior to
your arrival at the hospital?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; I know there was something in the air.
Mr. SPECTER. When, in relation to the shots, Mr. Kellerman, did you
notice the substance in the air?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Fine. When I have given the orders to Mr. Lawson, this
is when it all came between the driver and myself.
Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe what it was in a little more detail as it
appeared to you at that time?
Mr. KELLERMAN. This is a rather poor comparison, but let's say you take
a little handful of matter--I am going to use sawdust for want of a
better item--and just throw it.
Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe the sound of the flurry of shots by way
of distinction with the way you have described the sound of the first
shot?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Well, having heard all types of guns fired, most of
them, rather, if I recall correctly these were two sharp reports, sir.
Again, I am going to refer to it as like a plane going through a sound
barrier; bang, bang.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, you are referring to the flurry?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right.
Mr. SPECTER. Did it sound differently from the first noise you have
described as being a firecracker?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; definitely; very much so.
Representative FORD. Was there any other noise going on at the time of
the second and third shots different from the noise of the crowd or
otherwise at the time of the first shot?
Mr. KELLERMAN. We had no crowd, sir. There was nothing there.
Representative FORD. So the external noise was identical as far as
the----
Mr. KELLERMAN. Very much.
Representative FORD. First or second or the third shot?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. We are in an open-field area, so to speak, and
everything was just clear.
Representative FORD. So there was no other sound that would have
disturbed your hearing capability from the first through the third shot?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right; no other shot.
Representative FORD. Your only problem would be your personal activity
after the first shot.
Mr. KELLERMAN. Correct.
Representative FORD. Your activity of speaking to Greer and talking to
Lawson?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is correct, sir; yes, sir.
Representative FORD. Was there any crowd reaction?
Mr. KELLERMAN. There was no crowd.
Representative FORD. There were a few stragglers?
Mr. KELLERMAN. A handful, and I didn't view any reaction, sir.
Representative FORD. All right.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, you said earlier that there were at least
two additional shots. Is there any area in your mind or possibility, as
you recollect that situation, that there could have been more than two
shots, or are you able to say with any certainty?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I am going to say that I have, from the firecracker
report and the two other shots that I know, those were three shots.
But, Mr. Specter, if President Kennedy had from all reports four
wounds, Governor Connally three, there have got to be more than three
shots, gentlemen.
Senator COOPER. What is that answer? What did he say?
Mr. SPECTER. Will you repeat that, Mr. Kellerman?
Mr. KELLERMAN. President Kennedy had four wounds, two in the head and
shoulder and the neck. Governor Connally, from our reports, had three.
There have got to be more than three shots.