_CROSS-EXAMINATION_
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DR. SERVATIUS: What kind of directives were given at that time about the
execution of the Euthanasia Program?
WITNESS SCHMIDT: Well, the same directives as were finally carried
out—to move the invalids from lunatic asylum to the euthanasia
institution. I personally received subsequently the orders from the
Reich committee which had already been discussed during that meeting.
Q. Did you at that time consider that an order for murder?
A. In no way at all. The jurists in Berlin told us that this was a legal
matter, that it was a Hitler decree or a law which had been duly
approved; also that the jurists had discussed whether Hitler was
authorized to issue such a decree and decided in the affirmative, and we
were told that this was a matter which was a quite legal—
Q. Witness, a little slower.
A. That it was a legal task of the State which had already been planned
in 1932 and which was also being planned in other countries and that we
would not incriminate ourselves in any way, on the contrary, a sabotage
of this order would be a criminal offense. The question of secrecy was
also discussed in detail and it was stated that this was a kind of law
now; that the patients were not to have knowledge of such a measure
beforehand because otherwise they would be excited, and that was
probably the main reason why this law could not be published. In
addition at that time we were at war and those kinds of measures should
be kept secret in the interior.
Q. Who were the people to be concerned by the Euthanasia Program?
A. The incurably sick. However, it was not quite clear to me where the
limit was to be drawn. For me personally, such a measure could only be
considered in the cases of persons who were dying anyhow.
Q. Was there any mention made at that time of “useless eaters” and other
economic points of view?
A. I never actually heard the words “useless eaters” at all during the
war.
Q. Was it mentioned at the time that the institution had to be kept free
for other purposes, and that that was the reason?
A. The reason for this measure was only touched upon briefly. We were
told that these were tasks of the state which had become urgent because
of the war and, yes, of a eugenic nature.
Q. How about the children?
A. At the time there was always talk about the last medical aid.
Q. Well, if I understood you correctly, the decisive viewpoint was the
medical one?
A. Yes. I only observed it from the medical point of view.
Q. Now was the procedure actually carried out from this point of view?
Or didn’t this so-called program actually go far beyond its limits in
its execution?
A. The limits of the program were certainly exceeded to a great extent.
I personally did not see it myself, but on the basis of the reports I
received, I must say that excesses certainly took place.
Q. Witness, how was it in your institution with reference to excesses?
A. In my institution procedure was taken only on the basis authorized by
law. We also had a therapy station. Of course, I must say, it was not
very nice to watch these transports.
Q. Now, you said that later on Eastern workers were picked up?
A. Yes.
Q. Wasn’t that in excess of the original order which you received?
A. I cannot say that. I don’t know.
Q. Do you know where the order came from to transport these people away?
A. From the Ministry of the Interior. It was given to us by the superior
office of the Ministry of the Interior.
Q. You mean the Reich Minister of the Interior?
A. Yes.
Q. You further mentioned that the action was concluded in August 1941,
that it was stopped. Do you know the reason for this?
A. Yes. I do not know the official reason, but I heard of it
unofficially. I heard that Herr von Galen protested, and that was
probably why the whole procedure was stopped. I emphasize that I don’t
know for certain, but anyway for me it was a reason.
Q. Well was this procedure actually stopped everywhere in the end?
A. No. When Hadamar was closed I immediately assumed that some other
institution would continue this task or that the procedure would be
followed up in some other way. That is also what Mr. von Hegener said
when he was there.
Q. You said that these Eastern workers were collected by the same busses
as before?
A. Yes. The busses were the same. They were big black busses, and we
knew the drivers because they came frequently.
Q. To whom did the busses belong? To the Gauleiter’s office?
A. These busses were owned by the transport company. The Sick Transport
Company in Berlin. Some of the personnel remained in Hadamar.
Q. Was there no medical personnel?
A. No. There was no medical personnel.
Q. You said something about the excesses with reference to the program.
A. One must differentiate between how things were until the action was
stopped in 1941, and how it was later on.
Q. What excesses do you know of before the action was stopped in 1941?
A. You mean individually?
Q. Yes, in your institution.
A. There were none at all in our institution. The people were
transported away.
Q. You acted according to directives?
A. Yes. I personally was not in charge of this action. My chief was in
charge. But as far as I know no excesses were committed by the nursing
personnel. Of course, some of the obstinate patients refused to enter
the busses. That is natural.
Q. Were these all extreme cases which were sent for under this
Euthanasia Program?
A. Of course, it depends where the limit is drawn. One can maintain the
view that a large part of the patients, perhaps, might have undergone a
certain change through modern shock treatment or some other modern
method of treatment. But with those cases there in which the mental
disease was in a very advanced stage, in my opinion, most of the
patients no longer had any chance to enjoy life.