MR. HARDY: The prosecution wishes to recall the witness Karl
Hoellenrainer to the witness stand, your Honors.
PRESIDING JUDGE BEALS: The marshal will summon the witness
Hoellenrainer.
(The witness Karl Hoellenrainer took the stand.)
JUDGE SEBRING: You will raise your right hand and be sworn. I swear by
God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and
will withhold and add nothing.
(Witness repeated the oath.)
PRESIDING JUDGE BEALS: Counsel may proceed.
_DIRECT EXAMINATION_
MR. HARDY: Witness, your name again is Karl Hoellenrainer?
WITNESS HOELLENRAINER: Yes.
Q. Witness, at the close of your testimony the other day, you were
proceeding to tell the Tribunal about your activities after your arrival
at the Dachau concentration camp?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, when did you arrive for the first time at the Dachau
concentration camp?
A. That was about the middle of July.
Q. And then you stayed at the camp hospital for a period of 1 or 2 days?
A. In Auschwitz?
Q. No, in Dachau, after your arrival?
A. Yes, yes, in Dachau.
Q. And then you were examined physically and also X-rayed?
A. Yes.
Q. After you had been physically examined and X-rayed, what happened to
you?
A. Then, we came into the so-called surgical department. We were 40 men.
Then a Luftwaffe doctor came and examined us. We had to take our clothes
off and stand in line. Then he said, “Well, you will be given good food,
such as you have never had, and then you won’t get anything to eat at
all, and you will have to drink sea-water.” One of the prisoners whose
name was Rudi Taubmann jumped up and refused. He was in an experiment, a
cold-water experiment, and he didn’t want to be in any more experiments.
The doctor from the Luftwaffe said, “If you are not quiet, and want to
rebel, I will shoot you on the spot.” The doctor from the Luftwaffe
always had a pistol, and then we were all quiet. For about one week we
got cookies, rusks, and brown sugar. There were about 21 little cookies,
and three or four little pieces of dextrose. Otherwise, we got nothing.
The 8 days—
Q. Just a moment. Did you at any time volunteer for these experiments?
A. No.
Q. Were you asked whether or not you wished to volunteer for the
experiments?
A. No.
Q. Were any of the other inmates asked if they would like to volunteer?
A. No.
Q. Was the young Mettbach a volunteer, the youngest Mettbach?
A. I know only one Ernst Mettbach from Fuerth, but I don’t know whether
he volunteered.
Q. Was Ernst Mettbach in the experiments throughout; that is, did he
complete the experiments?
A. No, he was only there a short time, 2 or 3 days maybe. Then, the
doctor from the Luftwaffe put him out, and where he went I don’t know.
Q. Now, did the professor ask anyone for his approval before he was
subjected to the sea-water experiments?
A. No.
Q. Did the professor or any of the other Luftwaffe physicians talk to
the inmates and advise them as to the hazards of the experiment prior to
the commencement of the actual experiments?
A. No.
Q. Now, will you, in detail, tell the Tribunal just what food the
experimental subjects received prior to the experiments, during the
course of the experiments, and after the experiments, and in doing so,
Witness, kindly talk very slowly and distinctly so that the interpreters
will be able to translate you more efficiently.
A. Yes. At first we got potatoes, milk, and then we got these cookies
and dextrose and rusks. That lasted about 1 week. Then we got nothing at
all. Then the doctor from the Luftwaffe said, “Now, you have to drink
sea-water on an empty stomach.” That lasted about 1 or 2 weeks. This
Rudi Taubmann, as I already said, got excited and didn’t want to
participate; and the doctor from the Luftwaffe said, “If you get excited
and mutiny, I will shoot you,” and then we were all quiet. Then we began
to drink sea-water. I drank the worst kind, that was yellowish. We drank
two or three times a day, and then in the evening we drank the yellow
kind. There were three kinds of water, white water, and yellow water
[two kinds]; and I drank the yellow kind. After a few days the people
became raving mad; they foamed at the mouth. The doctor from the
Luftwaffe came with a cynical laugh and said, “Now it is time to make
the liver punctures.” I remember one very well.
Q. Talk more slowly, Witness. Thank you.
A. Yes. The first row on the left when you came in, the second bed, that
was the first one. He went crazy and barked like a dog. He foamed at the
mouth. The doctor from the Luftwaffe took him down on a stretcher with a
white sheet over him, and then he stuck a needle about this long
(indicating) into his right side, and there was a hypodermic needle on
it, and it bled, and it was very painful. We were all quiet and excited.
When that was over, the other inmates took their turn. The people were
crazy from thirst and hunger, we were so hungry—but the doctor had no
pity on us. He was as cold as ice. He didn’t take any interest in us.
Then, one gypsy—I don’t know his name any more—ate a little piece of
bread once, or drank some water; I don’t remember just what he did. The
doctor from the Luftwaffe got very angry and mad. He took the gypsy and
tied him to a bed post and sealed his mouth.
Q. Witness, do you mean that he put adhesive tape over this gypsy’s
mouth?
A. Yes.
Q. Go ahead, continue.
A. Then a gypsy, he was lying on the right, a big strong, husky fellow,
he refused to drink the water. He asked the doctor from the Luftwaffe to
let him go. He said he couldn’t stand the water. He was sick. The doctor
from the Luftwaffe had no pity, and he said, “No, you have to drink it.”
The doctor from the Luftwaffe told one of his assistants to go and get a
sun. Naturally, we didn’t know what a sun was. Then one of his
assistants came with a red tube about this long (indicating) and thrust
this tube first into the gypsy’s mouth and then into his stomach.
Q. Just a moment. That tube was how long? How long would that be, a half
a meter long?
A. About this long (indicating).
Q. That will be about a half a meter?
A. Yes, about a half a meter. And then the doctor from the Luftwaffe
took this red tube and put it in the gypsy’s mouth and into his stomach.
And then he pumped water down the tube. The gypsy kneeled in front of
him and beseeched him for mercy but that doctor had none.
Q. Witness, during the experiments was your temperature taken?
A. Yes.
Q. Who took your temperatures?
A. There were two Frenchmen, one tall thin and one short blond one; and
they took the temperatures and the doctor from the Luftwaffe took the
temperatures, too.
Q. When you say “the doctor from the Luftwaffe” you mean the man you
referred to as the “professor.” The professor and the doctor from the
Luftwaffe are the same or are they two different people?
A. Yes.
Q. I see. Thank you. Now, who performed the liver punctures?
A. The doctor from the Luftwaffe carried out the liver punctures
himself. Some people were given liver punctures and at the same time a
puncture in the spinal cord. The doctor from the Luftwaffe did that
himself. It was very painful. Something ran out at the same time at the
back. It was water or something—I don’t know what it was.
Q. Well, did you receive a liver puncture?
A. Yes.
Q. Did the professor tell you for what reason he gave you that liver
puncture?
A. The doctor from the Luftwaffe came to me and said, “Now,
Hoellenrainer, it’s your turn.” I was lying on the bed. I was very weak
from this water and from not having anything to eat. He said, “Now, lie
on your left side and take the clothes off your right side.” I held on
to the bedstead on top of me and the doctor from the Luftwaffe sat down
next to me and pushed a long needle into me. It was very painful. I
said, “Doctor, what are you doing?” The doctor said, “I have to make a
liver puncture so that the salt comes out of your liver.”
Q. Now, Witness, can you tell us whether or not the subjects used in the
experiments were gypsies of purely German nationality or were there some
Polish gypsies, some Russian gypsies, Czechoslovak gypsies, and so
forth?
A. Yes, there were about seven or eight Germans and the rest of them
were all Poles and Czechs, Czech gypsies and Polish gypsies.
Q. Were any of the experimental subjects ever taken out of the station
room to the yard outside the experimental barracks?
A. Yes, at the end when the experiments were all finished; and three
people were carried out with white sheets over them on a stretcher. They
were covered with sheets but I don’t know whether they were dead or not.
But we, my colleagues and I, talked about it. We never saw these three
again, neither at work nor anywhere in the camp. We often talked about
it and wondered where they were. We never saw them again. We thought
that they were dead.
Q. Do you know where they were taken?
A. No, I don’t know.
Q. Well, during the course of the experiments were you weighed every
day?
A. Yes. We were weighed, too.
Q. Was that every day or every other day?
A. I don’t remember exactly.
Q. Well, now, after the completion of the experiments in early September
what happened to you?
A. When we had finished the experiments?
Q. Yes.
A. I told you that already. We were sent to the hospital and the doctor
from the Luftwaffe came and said we were to take our clothes off and we
lined up and were divided into three groups. The doctor from the
Luftwaffe said, “Now you will be given good food. You have never had
such good food.” We were given potatoes, dextrose, cookies, milk—
Q. Just a minute, Witness. I am referring to the end of the experiments,
after the experiments were all completed. Could you tell us what date
your experiments were completed and you were transferred from the
experimental station?
A. The experiment lasted, maybe, 4 or 5 weeks altogether. I don’t know
the date.
Q. Well, then, they were completed in early September. Is that correct?
You arrived—
A. Yes.
Q. Now, after the experiments were completed did you then return to the
camp proper or to the camp hospital?
A. No, to the camp, into Block 22. We couldn’t walk. We all had to
support each other. We were exhausted. I forgot to tell you one thing.
Before we began the experiments and we had this good food for about one
week, the doctor took us out into the courtyard near the hospital. The
doctor from the Luftwaffe came. He had a little bottle in his hand and
we all had to line up. There was some liquid in the bottle and he put a
number on our chest. I had number “23.” It burned a lot. Then we went
back into the block. On every bed there was a number, the same number we
had on our chests. One man—but I don’t remember who it was—one of the
inmates, said: “That is what they call the death number.” I was pretty
scared and the inmates said, “Yes, that is the death number so that the
doctor of the Luftwaffe will know right away who is dead.”
We didn’t want to go on with the experiments but what choice did we
have? We were just poor prisoners. Nobody bothered about us. We had to
let them do with us what they wanted. We couldn’t resist. I haven’t got
the power to relate everything as it—
Q. All right. Just a moment. Was your bed number “23”?
A. Yes.
Q. Then you were considered to be experimental subject number 23?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you sick during the course of the experiments, Witness?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, Witness, after the completion of the experiments in early
September were you then called in and weighed to determine your weight
about 2 weeks later?
A. No, not after 2 weeks.
Q. Were you called in and weighed 1 week after you had completed the
experiments? Do you remember?
A. I don’t remember. But we were weighed.
Q. You were weighed every day during the experiments?
A. Yes.
Q. What I want to know is, were you weighed after the completion of the
experiments? For instance, you were weighed every day during the
experiments; then the experiments were completed; then you were not
weighed again for a period of 1 or 2 weeks. Did you get weighed 1 or 2
weeks after the completion of the experiments?
A. When the experiment was all finished? No.
Q. Well, now after you left the experimental block and went to the camp
how long was it before you were able to resume work?
A. A few days. Then we were sent in a detachment to a farm in
Feldmochingen. We had to work hard and the food was better than in the
camp but, you know, if you are a prisoner, what did the farmers give
you? A little bread, some soup—but, in any case it was better than in
the camp; and then every evening we came back to our block and then we
got the regular camp food.
* * * * *
_CROSS-EXAMINATION_
* * * * *
DR. STEINBAUER: When you were examined the first time you said that you
had no previous convictions. Do you maintain this assertion?
WITNESS HOELLENRAINER: No, I have been convicted.
Q. Then why did you lie?
A. I did not lie. I meant from the experiments.
Q. The question was whether before you came to the Gestapo you had ever
been convicted and punished by the police. Nothing was mentioned about
experiments at that time. That’s an excuse. Do you admit that you lied?
It’s much better for you.
A. No. I did not lie.
Q. Well, you have been convicted?
A. Yes.
Q. For theft?
A. Yes.
Q. For fraud?
A. Yes.
Q. For assault?
A. Yes.
Q. For blackmail?
A. What do you mean by that?
Q. Well, coercion.
A. No.
Q. For using a false name?
A. No. I never used a false name.
Q. You have to speak more slowly. We will come back to that. You were
arrested then for desertion?
A. Yes.
Q. You were prosecuted for desertion?
A. Yes.
Q. You refused to obey your draft order?
A. Yes.
Q. Isn’t that why you were sent to the concentration camp?
A. No, I was sent to the concentration camp merely because I am a gypsy.
My brothers were in the war and they came back from Russia and were sent
to Sachsenhausen and were murdered there, because there weren’t supposed
to be any more gypsies in the German Army.
Q. What kind of a badge did you wear in the camp?
A. A black one.
Q. You and your wife, too, have stated that you participated in malaria,
phlegmon, typhoid, and sea-water experiments?
A. No, only this one experiment, no malaria.
Q. Do you admit that you lied to the young doctor who talked to you?
A. No, I didn’t lie to the doctor. I just told him the exact truth. My
wife and I weren’t allowed to marry. My wife had a child from me and it
was cremated in Birkenau. My sister was cremated and both her children.
Q. Don’t get excited. I asked you whether you told the young doctor that
you were in four different experiments. All you have to say is yes or
no.
A. I told the doctor I drank salt water.
Q. Listen, Herr Hoellenrainer, don’t be evasive as gypsies usually are.
Give me a clear answer as a witness under oath. Did you tell the doctor
that you participated in other experiments, yes or no?
A. No. I just drank salt water.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, the testimony of this doctor is not in evidence
before this Tribunal. I don’t understand what Dr. Steinbauer is
referring to.
* * * * *
DR. STEINBAUER: You said you were in Auschwitz?
WITNESS HOELLENRAINER: Yes.
Q. Were you in the Birkenau extermination camp?
A. Yes.
Q. Were the gypsies in a big camp there?
A. Yes.
Q. Were there women and children there?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you have a wife there?
A. Yes, my fiancee, Ida Schmidt. She was gassed. She was burned to
death. I never saw her again.
Q. Didn’t you once beat your wife until the blood spurted out on to the
wall?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever beat her?
A. No.
* * * * *
Q. I asked you whether what I have just read to you is true, that you
were divided up and your numbers were called out, etc.?
A. We weren’t asked at all. Forty of us were collected together and we
were sent to Dachau.
Q. Now, I have to tell you that your countryman—he is from Fuerth too,
called Mettbach—said that he talked to you and particularly said that
he wanted to go to Dachau because it was nearer Fuerth than Buchenwald;
is that true?
A. That might be. I didn’t mind going to Dachau either because my
brother lived in Munich.
Q. Then you did go voluntarily?
A. No, I did not.
Q. How does it happen that Laubinger said something else? Laubinger said
you were deceived, that is why you volunteered?
A. No, I never volunteered. I certainly wouldn’t volunteer for these
death experiments.
Q. Well, you went to Dachau?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know the old Herzberg?
A. No.
Q. You don’t remember the gypsy from Bratislava?
A. No.
Q. Who was the oldest gypsy?
A. I don’t remember.
Q. You were with your comrades for weeks and don’t know their names?
A. No.
Q. It is possible that Mettbach did not know all the names then, isn’t
it?
A. How should I know? I did not have time to ask everybody what his name
was.
Q. When the experiments were to begin, did the professor explain the
purpose? That it was for rescuing people from shipwrecks, and that it
was a sea-water experiment?
A. Yes, of course.
Q. Did he explain that you would be very thirsty?
A. Yes, he did first.
Q. And that thirst was very unpleasant?
A. Yes.
* * * * *
Q. Witness, the thirst dried out the mouth?
A. Yes.
Q. How can you explain that these people foamed at the mouth?
A. They had fits and foamed at the mouth, they had fits of raving
madness.
Q. I am just asking you how there can be foam on a mouth which is
completely dried out?
A. I don’t know.
Q. You don’t know. Then some became mad?
A. Yes.
Q. You gypsies stick together, don’t you?
A. Yes, of course.
Q. Then you must be able to tell me who became mad?
A. I don’t remember.
Q. You must know. If a friend of mine—I was a soldier twice—and if a
friend of mine had gone mad then I would have noticed it.
A. It was a tall man who was in the first row. He was the first one to
start. He became raving mad and had fits and thrashed around with his
hands and feet. He was a tall slim gypsy.
Q. You said that you were weighed?
A. Yes.
Q. Isn’t it possible that after the experiment, when you received good
food again and plenty of water, you were re-weighed?
A. No.
Q. But then they had a chart showing where you were weighed every day?
A. I don’t know.
Q. Were you weighed standing up or lying down?
A. Standing up.
Q. Were some of the people weighed lying down?
A. I don’t remember.
Q. Were the scales ones on which people could be weighed lying down?
A. I don’t know.
Q. What did these scales look like?
A. Well, they were big scales. You had to stand on it. There was an
indicator which showed the weight.
Q. The man who had his mouth sealed, did he have a tube in his stomach
too?
A. I don’t remember.
Q. Your liver was punctured?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you have a scar?
A. A scar? I don’t know.
Q. Don’t you ever look at your body?
A. Yes. You want to see it?
Q. No. I am just asking you if you have a scar?
A. You mean a little mark?
Q. Have you a little round scar there?
A. I did not look as carefully as that.
Q. Well, do you think you have one or not?
A. I don’t know. I didn’t bother with these camp matters any more,
otherwise I would go crazy. I don’t want to hear anything more about the
camp. We suffered long enough.
Q. Witness, do you think you are mad or mentally retarded?
A. No. I don’t think I am mad. I said, I’d very soon go mad if I thought
about these things at the camp.
Q. Do you think there is something wrong with you mentally?
A. No.
Q. You say you are going crazy?
A. Well, if I keep thinking of that camp.
MR. HARDY: I object to this line of questioning, your Honor.
DR. STEINBAUER: Well, your liver was punctured?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know whether you have a scar, yes or no?
A. I don’t know.
Q. What was the nationality of the people in the camp who were
experimental subjects?
A. Poles and Czechs.
Q. How many Germans were there?
A. Seven or eight, who spoke German.
Q. Were there some Hungarians and Burgenlaender?
A. No. I don’t know.
* * * * *