_DIRECT EXAMINATION_
* * * * *
MR. MCHANEY: What is your name, please?
WITNESS KAROLEWSKA: Karolewska.
Q. And that is spelled K-a-r-o-l-e-w-s-k-a?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you born on 15 March 1909 at Yeroman?
A. I was born on 15 March 1909 in Yeroman.
Q. You are a citizen of Poland?
A. Yes, I am a Polish citizen.
Q. And have you come here as a voluntary witness?
A. Yes, I came here as a voluntary witness.
Q. What is your home address?
A. Warsaw, Inzynierska Street, No. 9, Flat No. 25.
Q. Are you married?
A. No.
Q. Are your parents living?
A. No, my parents are dead.
Q. Will you tell the Tribunal what education you have received?
A. I finished elementary school, and completed the training school for
teachers in 1928.
Q. And what did you do between 1928 and the beginning of the war in
1939?
A. I worked as a teacher in a children’s school in Grudenz.
Q. And when did you leave that post?
A. I finished my work in June 1939 and went on holiday.
Q. And did you go back to this position after your holiday?
A. No, I did not go back because the war broke out and I stayed in
Lublin.
Q. And what did you do while you were in Lublin?
A. I lived with my sister and did not work at all.
Q. Were you a member of the Polish Resistance Movement?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. And what did you do in the Polish Resistance Movement?
A. I was a messenger.
Q. And were you ever arrested for your activity in the Resistance
Movement?
A. I was arrested on the 13th of February 1941 by the Gestapo.
Q. Was your sister arrested with you?
A. Two sisters and two brothers-in-law were arrested with me on the same
day.
Q. What happened to you after you were arrested?
A. I was taken to the Gestapo.
Q. And what did the Gestapo do with you?
A. The first day the Gestapo took down my personal data and sent me to
the prison in Lublin.
Q. And then what happened? Just go on and tell the complete story about
what the Gestapo did with you and where you went.
A. I stayed 2 weeks in the prison in Lublin and then I was taken again
to the Gestapo. There I was interrogated and they wanted to force me to
confess what kind of work I used to do in the Resistance Movement. The
Gestapo wanted me to give them the names of persons with whom I worked.
I did not want to tell them the names and, therefore, I was beaten. I
was beaten by one Gestapo man, with brief intervals, for a very long
time. Then I was taken to a cell. Two days later, at night, I was taken
again to the Gestapo for interrogation. There I was beaten again. I
stayed in the Gestapo office one week and then I was taken back into the
prison in Lublin. I stayed in the prison till 21 September 1941. Then I
was transported with other prisoners to the concentration camp
Ravensbrueck, where I arrived on the 23d of September 1941.
Q. Now, Witness, before you continue, will you tell the Tribunal whether
you were ever tried by any court for the crime of being a member of the
Resistance Movement?
A. I was only interrogated by the Gestapo and I think that the sentence
must have been passed in my absence because no sentence was ever read
out to me.
Q. All right. Will you tell the Tribunal what happened to you at
Ravensbrueck?
A. At Ravensbrueck our dresses were taken away from us and we received
the regular prison dress. Then I was sent to the block and I stayed in
quarantine for 3 weeks. After 3 weeks we were taken to work. The work
was hard physical work. In the spring I was given other work and I was
transferred to the workshop, which was called in German “Betrieb.” The
work I did there was also very hard, and one week I had to work in the
daytime and the next week at night. In the spring the living conditions
in the camp grew worse and worse, and hunger began to reign in the camp.
The food portions were smaller. We were undernourished, very exhausted,
and we had no strength to work. In the spring of the same year, shoes
and stockings were taken away from us and we had to walk barefoot. The
gravel in the camp hurt our feet. The most tiring was the so-called
“roll calls”, which we had to stand several hours, sometimes even 4
hours. If a prisoner tried to put a piece of paper underneath her feet,
she was beaten and ill-treated in an inhuman way. We had to stand at
attention at the roll call place and we were not allowed to move our
lips, because then we were supposed to be praying and we were not
allowed to pray.
Q. Now, Witness, were you operated on while you were in the Ravensbrueck
concentration camp?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. When did that happen?
A. On 22 July 1942, 75 prisoners from our transport that come from
Lublin were summoned to the chief of the camp. We stood outside the camp
office, and present were Kogel, Mandel, and one person whom I later
recognized as Dr. Fischer. We were afterwards sent back to the block and
we were told to wait for further instructions. On the 25th of July, all
the women from the transport of Lublin were summoned by Mandel, who told
us that we were not allowed to work outside the camp. Also, five women
from the transport that came from Warsaw were summoned with us at the
same time. We were not allowed to work outside the camp. The next day 75
women were summoned again and we had to stand in front of the hospital
in the camp. Present were Schiedlausky, Oberheuser, Rosenthal, Kogel,
and the man whom I afterwards recognized as Dr. Fischer.
Q. Now, Witness, do you see Oberheuser in the defendants’ dock here?
INTERPRETER: The witness asks for permission to go near to the dock to
be able to see them.
MR. MCHANEY: Please do.
(Witness walks to dock and points to Dr. Oberheuser.)
MR. MCHANEY: And Fischer?
(Witness points to Dr. Fischer.)
MR. MCHANEY: I will ask that the record show that the witness properly
identified the defendants, Oberheuser and Fischer.
PRESIDING JUDGE BEALS: The record will show that the witness correctly
identified the defendants Oberheuser and Fischer.
MR. MCHANEY: Witness, you have told the Tribunal that in July 1942, some
75 Polish girls, who were in the transport from Lublin, were called
before the camp doctors in Ravensbrueck.
WITNESS KAROLEWSKA: Yes.
Q. Now, were any of these girls selected for an operation?
A. On this day we did not know why we were called before the camp
doctors and on the same day 10 out of 25 girls were taken to the
hospital, but we did not know why. Four of them came back and six stayed
in the hospital. On the same day six of them came back to the block
after having received some injection, but we did not know what kind of
injection. On the 1st of August, those six girls were called to the
hospital again; those girls who received injections were kept in the
hospital, but we could not get in touch with them to hear from them why
they were put in the hospital. A few days later, one of my comrades
succeeded in getting close to the hospital and learned from one of the
prisoners that all were in bed and that their legs were in casts. On the
14th of August, the same year, I was called to the hospital and my name
was written on a piece of paper. I did not know why. Besides me, eight
other girls were called to the hospital. We were called at a time when
executions usually took place and I thought I was going to be executed
because some girls had been shot down before. In the hospital we were
put to bed and the ward in which we stayed was locked. We were not told
what we were to do in the hospital and when one of my comrades put the
question she got no answer but an ironical smile. Then a German nurse
arrived and gave me an injection in my leg. After this injection I
vomited and I was weak. Then I was put on a hospital cot and they
brought me to the operating room. There, Dr. Schiedlausky and Rosenthal
gave me the second intravenous injection in my arm. A while before, I
noticed Dr. Fischer, who left the operating theater and had operating
gloves on. Then I lost consciousness and when I revived I noticed that I
was in a proper hospital ward. I recovered consciousness for a while and
I felt severe pain in my leg. Then I lost consciousness again. I
regained consciousness in the morning, and then I noticed that my leg
was in a cast from the ankle up to the knee and I felt very great pain
in this leg and had a high temperature. I noticed also that my leg was
swollen from the toes up to the groin. The pain was increasing and the
temperature, too, and the next day I noticed that some liquid was
flowing from my leg. The third day I was put on a hospital trolley and
taken to the dressing room. Then I saw Dr. Fischer again. He had on an
operating gown and rubber gloves on his hands. A blanket was put over my
eyes and I did not know what was done with my leg but I felt great pain
and I had the impression that something must have been cut out of my
leg. Those present were Schiedlausky, Rosenthal, and Oberheuser. After
the dressing was changed I was again put in the regular hospital ward.
Three days later I was again taken to the dressing room, and the
dressing was changed by Doctor Fischer with the assistance of the same
doctors, and I was also blindfolded. I was then sent back to the regular
hospital ward. The next dressings were made by the camp doctors. Two
weeks later we were all taken to the operating theater again, and put on
the operating tables. The bandage was removed, and that was the first
time I saw my leg. The incision went so deep that I could see the bone.
We were told then that there was a doctor from Hohenlychen, Doctor
Gebhardt, who would come and examine us. We were waiting for his arrival
for 3 hours, lying on our tables. When he came, a sheet was put over our
eyes, but they removed the sheet and I saw him for a short moment. Then
we were taken back to our regular wards. On 8 September I went back to
the block. I couldn’t walk. The pus was draining from my leg; the leg
was swollen up and I could not walk. In the block, I stayed in bed for
one week; then I was called to the hospital again. I could not walk and
I was carried by my comrades. In the hospital I met some of my comrades
who were there after the operation. This time I was sure I was going to
be executed because I saw an ambulance standing outside the office,
which was used by the Germans to transport people intended for
execution. Then we were taken to the dressing room where Doctor
Oberheuser and Doctor Schiedlausky examined our legs. We were put to bed
again, and on the same day, in the afternoon, I was taken to the
operating theater and the second operation was performed on my leg. I
was put to sleep in the same way as before, having received an
injection. This time I again saw Doctor Fischer. I woke up in the
regular hospital ward, and I felt a much greater pain and had a higher
temperature.
The symptoms were the same. The leg was swollen and the pus flowed from
my leg. After this operation, the dressings were changed by Dr. Fischer
every 3 days. More than 10 days afterwards, we were again taken to the
operating theater and put on the table; and we were told that Dr.
Gebhardt was going to come to examine our legs. We waited for a long
time. Then he arrived and examined our legs while we were blindfolded.
This time other people arrived with Dr. Gebhardt, but I don’t know their
names, and I don’t remember their faces. Then we were carried on
hospital cots back to our rooms. After this operation I felt still
worse, and I could not move. While I was in the hospital, Dr. Oberheuser
treated me cruelly.
When I was in my room I remarked to fellow prisoners that we were
operated on in very bad conditions and left here in this room and that
we were not even given a chance to recover. This remark must have been
heard by a German nurse who was sitting in the corridor, because the
door of our room leading to the corridor was opened. The German nurse
entered the room and told us to get up and dress. We answered that we
could not follow her order because we had great pains in our legs and we
could not walk. Then the German nurse came into our room with Dr.
Oberheuser. Dr. Oberheuser told us to dress and come to the dressing
room. We put on our dresses; and, being unable to walk, we had to hop on
one leg into the operating theater. After one hop we had to rest. Dr.
Oberheuser did not allow anybody to help us. When we arrived at the
operating theater, quite exhausted, Dr. Oberheuser appeared and told us
to go back, because the change of dressing would not take place that
day. I could not walk, but somebody, a prisoner whose name I don’t
remember, helped me back to the room.
Q. Witness, you have told the Tribunal that you were operated on the
second time on the 16th of September 1942? Is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. When did you leave the hospital after this second operation?
A. After the second operation I left the hospital on 6 October.
Q. Was your leg healed at that time?
A. My leg was swollen up, caused me great pain, and the pus drained from
my leg.
Q. Were you able to work?
A. I was unable to work, and I had to stay in bed because I could not
walk.
Q. Do you remember when you got up out of bed and were able to walk?
A. I stayed in bed several weeks, and then I got up and tried to walk.
Q. How long was it until your leg was healed?
A. The pus was flowing from my leg till June 1943; and at that time my
wound was healed.
Q. Were you operated on again?
A. Yes, I was operated on again in the bunker.
Q. In the bunker? That is not in the hospital?
A. Not in the hospital but in the bunker.
Q. Will you explain to the Tribunal how that happened?
A. May I ask permission to tell something which happened in March 1943,
March or February 1943?
Q. All right.
A. At the end of February 1943, Dr. Oberheuser called us and said,
“Those girls are new guinea pigs”; and we were very well known under
this name in the camp. Then we understood that we were persons intended
for experiments, and we decided to protest against the performance of
those operations on healthy people.
We drew up a protest in writing and we went to the camp commandant. Not
only those girls who had been operated on before but other girls who
were called to the hospital came to the office. The girls who had been
operated on used crutches and they went without any help.
I would like to tell you the contents of the petition made by us. “We,
the undersigned, Polish political prisoners, ask the commandant whether
he knows that since the year 1942 experimental operations have taken
place in the camp hospital, under the name guinea pigs, explaining the
meaning of those operations. We ask whether we were operated on as a
result of sentences passed on us because, as far as we know,
international law forbids the performance of operations even on
political prisoners.”
We did not get any answer; and we were not allowed to talk to the
commandant. On 15 August 1943, a policewoman came and read off the names
of 10 new prisoners. She told us to follow her to the hospital. We
refused to go to the hospital, because we thought that we were intended
for a new operation. The policewoman told us that we were probably going
to be sent to the factory for work outside the camp. We wanted to make
sure whether the labor office was open because it was Sunday. The
policewoman told us that we had to go to the hospital to be examined by
a doctor before we went to the factory. We refused to go then because we
were sure that we would be kept in the hospital and operated on again.
All prisoners in the camp were told to stay in the blocks. All of the
women who lived in the same block where I was were told to leave the
block and stand in line in front of Block 10 at a certain time. Then the
Overseer Binz appeared and called out 10 names, and my name was among
them.
We went out of the line and stood before Block 9 in line. Then Binz
said: “Why do you stand in line as if you were to be executed?” We told
her that operations were worse for us than executions and that we would
prefer to be executed rather than to be operated on again. Binz told us
that she might give us work; there was no question of our being operated
on, but we were going to be sent for work outside the camp. We told her
that she must know that prisoners belonging to our group were not
allowed to leave the camp and go outside. Then she told us to follow her
into her office, that she would show us a paper proving that we were
going to be sent for work to the factory outside the camp. We followed
her and we stood before her office. She was in her office for a while
and then went out and went to the canteen where the camp commandant was.
She had a conference with him probably asking him what to do with us. We
stood in front of the office for half an hour. In the meantime one
fellow prisoner who used to work in the canteen walked past. She told us
that Binz had asked for help from SS men to take us to the hospital by
force. We stood for a while and then Binz came out of the canteen
accompanied by the camp commandant. We stood for a while near the camp
gate. We were afraid that SS men would come to take us, so we ran away
and mixed with other people standing in front of the block. Then Binz
and the camp police appeared. They drove us out from the lines by force.
She told us that she was putting us into the bunker as punishment for
not following her orders. Five prisoners were put into each cell
although one cell was only intended for one person. The cells were quite
dark, without lights. We stayed in the bunker the whole night long and
the next day. We slept on the floor because there was only one couch in
the cell. The next day we were given a breakfast consisting of black
coffee and a piece of dark bread. Then we were locked in again. People
were walking up and down the corridor of the bunker the whole time. The
same day in the afternoon we learned our fate. The woman guard of the
bunker unlocked our cell and took me out. I thought that I was to be
interrogated or beaten. She took me down the corridor. She opened one
door and behind the door stood SS man Dr. Trommel. He told me to follow
him upstairs. Following Dr. Trommel I noticed there were other cells,
with beds and bedding. He put me in one of the cells. Then he asked me
whether I would agree to a small operation. I told him that I did not
agree to it because I had already undergone two operations. He told me
that this was going to be a very small operation and that it would not
harm me. I told him that I was a political prisoner and that operations
could not be performed on political prisoners without their consent. He
told me to lie down on the bed; I refused to do so. He repeated it
twice. Then he went out of the cell and I followed him. He went quickly
downstairs and locked the door. Standing in front of the cell I noticed
a cell on the opposite side of the staircase, and I also noticed some
men in operating gowns. There was also one German nurse ready to give an
injection. Near the staircase stood a stretcher. That made it clear to
me that I was going to be operated on again in the bunker. I decided to
defend myself to the last. In a moment Trommel came back with two SS
men. One of these SS men told me to enter the cell. I refused to do it,
so he forced me into the cell and threw me on the bed.
Dr. Trommel took me by the left wrist and pulled my arm back. With his
other hand he tried to gag me, putting a piece of rag into my mouth,
because I shouted. The second SS man took my right hand and stretched
it. Two other SS men held me by my feet. Immobilized, I felt somebody
giving me an injection. I defended myself for a long time, but then I
grew weaker. The injection had its effect; I felt sleepy. I heard
Trommel saying, “That is all.”
I regained consciousness again, but I don’t know when. Then I noticed
that a German nurse was taking off my dress, I then lost consciousness
again; I regained it in the morning. Then I noticed that both my legs
were in iron splints and were bandaged from the toes up to the groin. I
felt a severe pain in my feet, and had a temperature.
On the afternoon of the same day, a German nurse came and gave me an
injection, in spite of my protests; she gave me this injection in my
thigh and told me that she had to do it.
Four days after this operation a doctor from Hohenlychen arrived, again
I was given an injection to put me to sleep, and as I protested he told
me that he would change the dressing; I felt a higher temperature and a
greater pain in my legs.
* * * * *
Q. How many times did you see Gebhardt?
A. Twice.
Q. I will ask you to step down and walk over to the defendants’ dock and
see whether or not you find the man Gebhardt sitting in the dock.
(The witness complied and pointed to the defendant Gebhardt.)
Thank you. Sit down.
I will ask that the record show that the witness properly identified the
defendant Gebhardt.
PRESIDING JUDGE BEALS: The record will show that the witness identified
the defendant Gebhardt in the dock.
MR. MCHANEY: I have no further questions at this time.
PRESIDING JUDGE BEALS: Will Dr. Alexander again be put on the stand in
connection with the examination of this witness?
MR. MCHANEY: Yes, but if there is any cross-examination we can probably
finish that before lunch.
PRESIDING JUDGE BEALS: Do any of the defense counsel desire to
cross-examine this witness?
DR. SEIDL (counsel for the defendants Gebhardt, Oberheuser, and
Fischer): I do not intend to cross-examine this witness, but this does
not mean that my clients admit the correctness of all statements made by
this witness.
PRESIDING JUDGE BEALS: Does any other of the defense counsel desire to
examine the witness?
(No response.)
EXTRACT FROM THE TESTIMONY OF THE PROSECUTION EXPERT WITNESS DR. LEO
ALEXANDER[46]
_DIRECT EXAMINATION_
MR. MCHANEY: Doctor, can you express any opinion as to the purpose of
the type of operation to which she [Karolewska] was subjected, that is
the bone removal?
DR. ALEXANDER: I think it must have been one of the experiments which
aimed at the question of regeneration of bone or possible
transplantation of bone. Chances are that this tibial graft was either
implanted in another person or that grafts had been exchanged. Of course
today, 3 years after the experiment, no trace of transplantation is left
in this individual. Or if the object was, as alleged in some statements
I have seen, that tibial grafts were exchanged between the two legs, one
must conclude that the experiment was negative because there is no
evidence that a graft took. All we see now are the consequences of
removal of a graft, and the graft had included the entire compact part
of the bone, otherwise the repair would have been better. If some part
of the compact had remained, the periosteum would have probably
regenerated and today, 3 years after the operation, no X-ray would have
shown the defect. So I feel that rather deep grafts were taken which
went down into the spongiosa. Whether anything was replaced that later
was destroyed, I do not know, except the patient stated that there was a
purulent discharge, indicating that the wound had become infected, and
her statement of a subsequent operation, in fact, if I am not mistaken,
two subsequent operations, indicates the probability that the grafts did
not take and that they were removed after infection had become obvious.
-----
[43] Final plea is recorded in mimeographed transcript, 15 July 1947,
pp. 10874-10910.
[44] Dr. Maczka appeared as witness before the Tribunal, 10 January
1947, Tr. pp. 1430-1462.
[45] Complete testimony is recorded in mimeographed transcript, 20 Dec.
1946, pp. 815-832.
[46] This testimony is recorded in mimeographed transcript, 20 Dec.
1946, pp. 832-838.