_DIRECT EXAMINATION_
DR. WEISGERBER: During the subsequent period you came in contact with
the cold experiments of Dr. Rascher?
DEFENDANT SIEVERS: I once went to Dachau in order to participate in
administrative conferences at the time when Dr. Rascher, Professor
Holzloehner, and Dr. Finke were concluding a cold experiment. That is to
say, the experimental subject had just been placed into a room, but I
didn’t see anything else of this experiment.
Q. On the occasion of this experiment, or on the occasion of a
discussion which perhaps followed, did you hear anything more in detail
about Rascher concerning these experiments?
A. These three men were very busy reading the apparatus used in
connection with that experiment. I was told that it was necessary to
apply the warm covers as quickly as possible. Professor Holzloehner
stated that they had almost concluded their experiments and that further
experiments hardly seemed necessary. No scientific questions were
discussed at that time.
Q. Did you see any report or did you receive reports from Rascher about
these cold experiments?
A. No. These reports also went directly to Himmler from Rascher, as
becomes evident from the documents which have been submitted here.
Q. In Document 1611-PS (_Pros. Ex. 85_), you find a letter sent by the
Reich Leader SS to Dr. Rascher, dated 22 September 1942. In the second
paragraph it states that it was sent to SS Obersturmbannfuehrer Sievers
for information. Paragraph 1 mentions the interim report on the cold
experiments by Dr. Rascher at the Dachau concentration camp. One could
conclude therefrom that you received this interim report.
A. This interim report went directly from Rascher to Himmler, otherwise
Himmler wouldn’t have answered Rascher direct. I don’t think, however,
that it is out of the question that Rascher had told Hitler in this
interim report, or in some other way, that when I heard of these cold
experiments I considered them to be perverse. I assume that by sending
me that report Himmler’s opinion on that subject was to be transmitted
to me, and that is why I received a copy of that letter for my
information.
Q. Now, would you be good enough to turn over one page, and you will
find there Dr. Rascher’s letter dated 3 October 1942. (_NO-285, Pros.
Ex. 86._) This letter is obviously directed to Dr. Rudolf Brandt. It
becomes evident from that letter that Rascher applied to you in a number
of matters, is that correct?
A. Yes, I shall revert to that briefly, first of all concerning the
low-pressure chamber. He says here that he turned to me in order to take
steps regarding the low-pressure chamber. I didn’t do anything about
that, at least not on the basis of this request by Rascher, only later
when Himmler arrived at Munich and when he himself ordered me to send
him this draft letter which was previously discussed. He further says
that he turned to me regarding a teletype which requested the furnishing
of women for these experiments. Since Himmler had already issued orders
regarding the furnishing of experimental subjects, there was nothing
left for me to do.
Q. Didn’t you participate in a second cold experiment?
A. Yes, together with Dr. Hirt, whom I had to accompany by order of
Himmler, as he had been included in Rascher’s experiments with Himmler’s
approval. Himmler probably had realized in the meantime that Rascher
alone would not be sufficient in order to clarify these scientifically
very extensive and difficult questions. Hirt could only come to Munich
for one day because of his state of health and for that reason asked
that everything be prepared beforehand, so that he could gain insight
into all the work results which had been obtained so far. I told Rascher
to prepare everything according to Hirt’s desire. A professional
criminal was presented for the purpose of this experiment.
Q. Was that a professional criminal who had already been condemned to
death, and how did you know whether it was such a criminal?
A. Before the experiment started Hirt wanted to look at the files
because there was a possibility that this experiment would end fatally.
The sentence was furnished by the Criminal Police Department of the Camp
Administration. We saw that this was a sentence which had been passed by
a regular court, and it became evident therefrom that this man had more
than 10 years’ penitentiary behind him, and had been recently, sentenced
to death because of murder and theft. Hirt furthermore asked the man
whether he knew that this experiment might end fatally, whereupon the
man answered that he was well aware of it. He said that he would have to
die anyway for he was a confirmed criminal, and he just could not stop
his criminal activity; therefore he deserved death.
Q. Did you convince yourself of that by asking the experimental subject
whether he was actually a volunteer?
A. After Hirt’s questioning I personally asked the man whether he agreed
to that experiment. He thereupon said that he was in full agreement,
providing it didn’t hurt him. This assurance could be given to him
because the experiment was carried out under complete anaesthesia. I
didn’t participate in the entire experiment, but I saw that this man was
given an anaesthetic.
Q. You yourself saw the files from the criminal police?
A. Yes, I read through them, together with Hirt.
Q. Well, I guess there can be no doubt that this was a professional
criminal sentenced to death by a regular court?
A. This was a very regular sentence. All previous sentences were listed
in the files, and I remember in addition to the death sentence, he had
already had 10 years’ penitentiary.
* * * * *
Q. Now, would you please be good enough to turn to page 86 of the
document book before you? This is a report about a so-called “Cold
Conference” dated 26 and 27 October 1942. Did you receive this report in
the Ahnenerbe?
A. I certainly didn’t receive it and I don’t remember having seen it
anywhere.
Q. Didn’t Curator Wuest receive that report?
A. I do not believe so. The scientific work in connection with Rascher,
which only concerned Himmler personally, was always dealt with directly
by Rascher and Himmler. These matters were only sent to Wuest if Himmler
actually sent them himself. I don’t believe that has happened in this
particular case. At any rate, Wuest never told me anything about it.
These reports and the research assignments just discussed lay completely
outside the interests and sphere of Wuest.
Q. What do you know about the so-called dry-cold experiments of Dr.
Rascher?
A. I only know about these experiments on the basis of Himmler’s order
which was sent by Himmler to Pohl and Grawitz because of the furnishing
of the equipment. I don’t know whether these experiments were actually
carried out. At any rate, I only found out about that here in this
courtroom. As a prerequisite for the execution Rascher said that it was
necessary for them to be performed in the mountains. Himmler had also
ordered that these experiments be carried out in the grounds of the
mountain villa at Sudelfeld. I was to see to it that accommodation was
available there. Investigations, however, proved that the terrain at
Sudelfeld was not suitable for that purpose. At the same time I had
heard that there were a sufficient number of cases of freezing to be
found in hospitals at the front. I therefore asked Rascher why it was
necessary for him to carry out any further experiments. He evaded my
question and merely declared categorically that he would have to abide
by Himmler’s order.
Q. Which year was that?
A. That was at the end of 1942.
Q. The order was at the end of 1942?
A. The end of 1942. The conversation with Rascher about the
accommodation took place afterwards.
Q. And that was intended for the winter of 1943-44?
A. No, for 1942-43. Since the terrain at Sudelfeld was not suitable,
some other place had to be found and I handled this matter in a very
dilatory manner. Rascher pressed me on the matter and Himmler was rather
indignant, but after all I couldn’t create a house by myself. Himmler
subsequently ordered that preparations be made for these experiments to
be carried out at least in the next winter. I think I made a mistake, I
think it must have been the winter of 1943-44. I’m sure it was 1943-44,
and I think that afterwards Himmler said that preparations were to be
made for 1944-45. These experiments, however, were never carried out
because Rascher was already arrested in the spring of 1944.
Q. In that case you are saying that these dry-cold experiments were not
carried out in the mountains in the winter of 1943-44. You assisted in
preventing these experiments from being carried out by delaying the
finding of suitable accommodation?
A. Yes.
Q. I will now briefly summarize your testimony with reference to the
count concerning cold experiments.
MR. HARDY: If it please your Honor, the defense counsel has put
questions to the witness and the witness has testified to these
questions. I really think summations after each experiment are
unnecessary here. That can take place in his closing statement.
PRESIDING JUDGE BEALS: A short summation on the part of defense counsel
might be in order, as long as it does not contain too much repetition.
DR. WEISGERBER: Yes, your Honor. You accidentally attended the
completion of a cold experiment by Dr. Rascher at Dachau. You had seen
no reports about Dr. Rascher’s experiments and received no knowledge
about them in any other way. The furnishing of the experimental subjects
for the rewarming experiments were not your business, and you actually
had nothing to do with it. You attended a further experiment under the
circumstances which you have previously described. You know nothing
about any dry-cold experiments being carried out in Dachau itself. You
succeeded in delaying and finally completely frustrating the dry-cold
experiments in the mountains. Is that correct?
DEFENDANT SIEVERS: Yes, that is correct.
Q. After searching your mind, did you do anything in that connection
which went beyond the orders given you by Himmler?
A. No, in no way at all.
* * * * *
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[28] Figure 14, headed “Mean Values from Group of Four Experiments each
at 4° C. [39.2° F.] to 4.5° C. [40.1° F.] Water Temperature,” is a chart
showing the skin temperature and the rectal temperature of four
experimental subjects each of whom respectively in a sober state, was
given 100 cubic centimeters of alcohol one hour before the start of the
experiment, and was given 100 grams of pure dextrose one hour before
start of the experiment. The three curves indicating skin temperature
show drops to 16° C. and below after 60 to 80 minutes; the three curves
showing rectal temperature show a low of 22.3° C. and 21.3° C. after 70,
100, and 110 minutes respectively, and then an increase to 31.3° C.
after 130, 200, and 230 minutes respectively.
[29] 1616-PS, Pros. Ex. 105, see p. 249.
[30] Complete testimony is recorded in mimeographed transcript, 17-18
December 1946, pp. 595-695.
[31] Complete testimony is recorded in mimeographed transcript, 11, 12,
13, and 18 February 1947, pp. 2815-3104.
[32] Complete testimony is recorded in mimeographed transcript, 25, 26,
27 February 1947, pp. 3470-3700.
[33] Complete testimony is recorded in mimeographed transcript, 9, 10,
11, 14 April 1947, pp. 5656-5869.