CONGRESSMAN MADDEN:—

“Mr. Chairman, ladies and gentlemen:

The most sacred obligation we have today imposed upon the Government is

the proper care of the men who came back from the War less physically

fit than they were when they went away. Provision is being made for

their care to the extent that it is possible to make it. I think it may

be safe to say that no country in all the world has been so generous in

its care of its wounded soldiers, as America.

Hospitalization is one thing that we must provide, and we must provide

every necessary comfort for those who gave to the country in its hour of

direct need. We must not be foolish, however, in what we do. We must

have a care as weal of other things as of the men themselves. I think

the American people would be willing to make any sacrifice for the

comfort of the men who served the nation either in the late war or any

other war; and the best evidence of their willingness to do that and of

the willingness of the Congress to cooperate is the fact that we are

spending out of the public treasury for the allotments, allowances,

hospitalization, vocational training, insurance, and other things for

the comfort of these men, 489 million dollars a year; and it is growing

and, as far as I can see, it will continue to grow.

Now we may be doing some things in connection with this expenditure that

are not for the best interests of the men, and I sometimes have doubt as

to whether we are wise or unwise. I sometimes have doubt as to whether

we are managing this expenditure as it ought to be managed,—whether we

are giving the proper care to the moral situation surrounding the

hospitals where these men are being treated. We have evidence before my

committee in the record testified to by those in charge of hospitals in

which these men are being cared for, to show the most demoralizing

situation as the result of the extravagance and expenditure of money by

the men being hospitalized at the expense of the Government.

I have a suggestion to make in this connection. I have no desire

whatsoever to take away from any man anything that ought to be given to

him in the way of service or care by the Government. On the contrary, no

man will go as far as I will to see that proper care and proper

attention is given to every man that served the nation; but I believe

that in the payments we make to these men who are being hospitalized, we

ought to have some control over where that money goes, while they are in

the hospital. (APPLAUSE).

I would suggest two thoughts, either the thought that while they are in

the hospital they must deposit their money with those in charge, and be

allowed to expend only a limited sum, and thereby prevent the assemblage

in the neighborhood of the institution which the Government of the

United States is maintaining for the care of its patriotic men, from

becoming the nest of demoralization or prostitution. You can’t make it

too strong. The facts disclose the situation. Now, we have an obligation

greater than the obligation to care for the man, and that is to see that

while we are caring for them we do not destroy them. (APPLAUSE). We have

got to have the courage to adopt a plan.

Up to the present moment most men connected with the government service

have been afraid to express an opinion in connection with the ex-service

men, lest somebody might become offended at his attitude. (APPLAUSE) Now

I am not one of these men. I believe the time has come when the man in

public office has got to have the courage of his convictions; there is

nobody in the world that people hate so much as the man in high public

place who has not the courage of his convictions. The man in high public

place has got to have sufficient courage to protect the rank and file of

those who are being protected by the Government from the folly of their

own deeds; and that applies as well to the Legion and all other

organizations connected with the ex-service men, as well as anybody

else, for it can.

Now we have a two-fold obligation,—I may say three-fold. We have the

obligation to the men, to give them proper care. We have the obligation

to the Treasury to see that that care is not conducted at an outrageous

expense; and we have the obligation to the Nation to see that the moral

standpoint of the communities in which these men are being cared for, is

not degraded as a result of our attempt to help the men; and the only

way you can stop that is to prevent the men while in the care of the

Government, from having unlimited right to spend the money allotted to

them out of the Treasury of the United States. It would be far better

for them, far better for the community, for the nation, far better for

the future of all if we could arbitrarily take the money away from them

while they are in our control; place it on deposit, and see that it is

applied for some useful purpose for their families after they leave our

care. We can do it. We have the power. Have we the courage? I think we

have, and if you will join me, we will do it! (APPLAUSE)

I think the men themselves will be happier. Their organizations will be

more pleased. You will have some grumbling, but you will have it anyhow.

Far better to have the grumbling when the men are sober than otherwise.

Far better to have the grumbling when men are likely to be contented

than when they are discontented; and I don’t know of any individual more

happy than he who knows that when we get through with the treatment we

are giving him he can look forward to having a bank account somewhere.

You know we are liable to destroy the usefulness of this man. The

citizenship of the future may depend upon our actions, and we must be

careful. The obligation is ours today; it must be somebody else’s

tomorrow; but the transfer of obligation from one man to another ought

not to make any difference. Any man afraid of the obligation to do this

work ought to be transferred, because he is not fit for his job. Public

office is just an opportunity to serve; that is all. The man who is in

public office, who trims his sails to meet every passing wind is not fit

for the job. He must have courage, integrity, purpose in life; and the

man who cannot do the things that are dictated by conscience and right

in a great public office ought not to be returned to it. The man that

cannot feel the consciousness of his own rectitude, but rather the

political bee buzzing, is not fit for a public office; and the men who

are in the great service in which you men are employed have obligations,

wonderful obligations, wonderful opportunities.

We depend upon you for the outline of the plan that we must follow in

our treatment of this great army of patriotic men that have come back,

eyeless, legless, armless, and sick in many other ways; but we must also

depend upon you to cooperate with us in an effort to prevent the looting

of the public Treasury and the reduction of the moral standpoint of the

nation.

You need not be afraid to suggest. We should like to have your

suggestions. We invite them; we welcome then. You need not be afraid to

criticize; we are glad to have that. But we want you not only to

remember that money is a factor as well as a help, but we want you to

learn how to spend money. Most doctors do not know how, especially Army

doctors. I have discovered that. I don’t blame them. Their minds run

along other lines, but somebody has to watch this side of the case.

Now one thing we ought to remember is that the estimates for the

expenses of the Government of the United States for the fiscal year,

1923, sent to the Congress amount to 167 million dollars more than we

have got; and since these estimates came, 50, 60, 70 million dollars

more have come, adding that much more to that which we have not got. I

just want to say to you, gentlemen, right here that it does not make any

difference how many estimates come, there won’t be a bit appropriated

beyond the revenue, and I don’t care from whom the estimates come.

Our job is to represent the tax-payers. Somebody must visualize the

nation. You men visualize the thing before you; you see the local

picture. We see more than that; we see the whole picture; and our job is

not only to see that the rights of those under our care are protected

and preserved, but that the rights of the people who are not under our

care and under whose care we are, are protected. We represent the

tax-payers of the nation. They have been mighty patriotic; they have

been liberal; they have not grumbled; they have paid the price; they

have paid it with courage; and they have shown their patriotism. They

have shown their unselfish devotion to liberty. They are willing to meet

any expense that may be imposed for the proper care of those who fell

before the bullets of the enemy; but they want and will insist upon

proper supervision of the expenditures.

They have a right to that. They have a right to relief from the burdens

of taxation to the extent that we can help to give them that relief; and

it is your job and mine and that of every other man in the government

service,—whether he be a dollar-a-year man or whether he be given fifty

thousand dollars a year for the privilege of service,—to do everything

in his power to make the people of America feel that they are not

misrepresented in anything we may do.

The expenses of the Government for 1919 were nineteen billions; for

1920, seven billion, five hundred; for 1921, six billion, five hundred;

for 1922, four billion, thirty-four millions; but a billion, eight

hundred and forty-five millions of that are in three fixed charges,

i.e., nine hundred and seventy-five million dollars a year for interest

on the public debt, which did not exist before the war; three hundred

and eighty-one million dollars a year for the sinking-fund, which did

not exist before the war; four hundred and eighty-nine million dollars a

year for the care of the men that you are here to represent, for their

hospitalization, allotments, allowances, insurance, and so on; so that

we have that fixed charge in these three items that never existed

before. Our Government in the future is bound to cost twice what it ever

cost before, and so we have everybody in the United States watching

every dollar of expenditure.

We have seven million tax-payers now that pay out of their

incomes,—seven million people watching what we do. Before the war we did

not have any of these people. They did not care what you did; how much

money you spent, or where you got it. They did not have to pay it; it

was not being paid directly. Now it is paid direct, and the more

tax-payers you have got paying into the Treasury, the more account you

have got to have of what you do with the government funds.

I am just here today to say to you, gentlemen, that I know you can help

a lot both in effecting economy of expenditure and in creating a better

condition, from the moral standpoint, in all of the surroundings where

our men are being treated and cared for. You can cooperate by suggesting

to our Committee on Appropriations how we can best meet the situation

that will prevent extravagant waste of money by the men who are being

cared for, while they are in the institutions, and how we can preserve

the funds for them and their families; also, how we can preserve the

moral standards of the institutions.

Why, the statements that come to me are appalling about the low moral

standards around some of these institutions. I heard a good deal about

the Army camps during the war, but it was not any worse than now. It is

for you men to say what we shall do to prevent it, and we want you to

cooperate fairly, loyally, actively, unitedly and promptly, because we

must at any hazard and at any cost prevent any condition that will bring

stench to the institution that we are trying to preserve.

We must not under any circumstances allow the fund that is being used to

preserve the health to the limit and build up the men who served us

during the war, to be used for any purpose that will create scandal in

the nation; and it is bound to create scandal if we do not watch out for

the moral standard in every community.

Now, pave the way. Show us how we can tie the fund up, and help us to

help the people of the nation to preserve the men who are the wards of

the nation. We must not demoralize them; we must not make them

mendicants; we must not encourage them to leave their normal, legitimate

employment to become wards of the nation; but we must encourage these

men in every way that we can to become so useful that they will be able

to help themselves and be willing to do it, and not depend upon the

nation.

If I have been able to express a thought at all here that will be of any

value in the long run, I shall feel well repaid for having come. I know

of no more patriotic men than those who confront me, and no more

patriotic women than those who devoted themselves to the service of the

nation during the war. There are no more patriotic men and women than

these anywhere. They made the sacrifice during the darkest hours. Many

of you men could go out and, as far as dollars go, be much better off;

but you prefer to do a service to the nation.

Now, couple with your medical service the two suggestions that I made.

Let me repeat them,—the up-building of the moral standard, and the

maintenance of an economic expenditure of the funds that may be placed

under your charge.

Thank You.”

GENERAL SAWYER: “Fellows, as an expression of your appreciation of the

presence of Congressman Madden this morning, I would ask you to rise to

your feet, that he may know we believe in him and are for him.”

The assembly responded by standing up.

GENERAL SAWYER: I would lose a great opportunity if I did not take advantage

of this particular moment to say to you that I should like—being a

doctor myself—that we relieve ourselves of the charge of not being

business men. Certainly in the administration of year affairs you have

the greatest opportunity that can come to men now to demonstrate that

you have some business sense as well as professional sense, and to me it

is a great pleasure to have this program this morning because it gives

us a new idea of what it means to think in the language of dollars and

cents.

This administration has great ambitions to develop within the Government

a business organization. The President of the United States believes

that the machinery conducting the affairs of the Government of the

United States is about as complete, is about as capable as any machinery

that could possibly be devised, providing it has a perfect system of

organization and business operation of these affairs.

The experiences of the past have shown that we have gone on in our

governmental affairs without due regard to where we were to get out. We

have depended upon deficiency bills to help us in our extravagance or

our over-expenditures. The time has come when that policy is a matter of

the past.

Realizing that it was only possible to carry on the affairs of our

Government along business lines, the President sought what he

regards—and I know this personally because I have heard him express it

many times—one of the biggest and best and most potent business men of

the United States of America to take charge of the direction of the

budget; and I now have great pleasure in introducing to you, follows, my

dearest, closest friend, General Charles G. Dawes, of Chicago, Illinois.

“Mr. Chairman and Members of the Conference:

The trouble with most of the Government meetings is that they do not

assume the nature of a business meeting. We have something that is

entirely different from the atmosphere which surrounds the meeting of

any private business organization.

In my work down here for this year, I look upon the Government simply as

a business organization and unless I get formality out of my mind, I do

not get close to the people with whom I do business. So this morning I

just simply want to explain—because when you can give the reasons for

the imposition of discipline and rules of action, you make these rules

of action doubly effective.

I want to explain, and grasp this opportunity to explain something of

the working of the machinery which has been set in motion by the

President, creating by Executive Order for the first time, a machine for

the imposition of an Executive plan, and a pressure upon Governmental

business. In other words, the President, for the first time, has assumed

his responsibility as business head of the organization. He has

established certain agencies for the imposition of executive policies

and I wanted to explain something about them.

This meeting, itself, is the result of the creation of one of these

coordinating agencies by Executive Order. And what is involved in this

meeting?

Suppose a private corporation was spending, apart from the interest it

paid on its debts, about one-fourth of all its expenditures along one

certain line of activity. That is what this Government is doing through

the Boards represented here,—Army, Navy, Veterans’ Bureau, etc.

Supposing that business had run along for a hundred years and somebody

would come in and say to the head of the business, “How much money are

you spending on this particular activity?”

“Well, so much, one-fourth of all we spend.”

“Have you ever had a meeting of the heads of the agencies for the

expenditure?”

“No.”

“Well, how do you know you are not duplicating facilities? How do you

know there is any coordination between the establishments you are

building in the securing of supplies, in the hiring of men?”

“We don’t know. We never have had, in this business organization, even a

meeting to discuss the question of proper expenditure of money upon the

standpoint of one corporation as distinguished from five separate

departments of a corporation.”

Now what a ridiculous situation that is and yet that is what has

pertained from the beginning of Government. We have forty-one

independent governmental departments and establishments and each of them

has been going on its own way and the result has been chaos in business,

absolute chaos. It is a remarkable thing that here for the first time in

the history of the Government you have got together the elements to

determine the proper administration of this most important matter of the

care of the sick and the disabled among the veterans of the war. For the

first time it is possible, by this juxtaposition, to properly consider

policies to prevent duplication, to devise ways and means and it is a

comment upon the terrible conditions under which the business of this

Government has been transacted, and that is the first instance where you

could get them all together to discuss a coordinated policy. That has

been so with everything. The meeting never would have gotten together,

you never could have gotten together physically in connection with this

thing unless you had been ordered together by the use of the Executive

power of the President of the United States. Now don’t get that out of

your head,—that underneath this reorganization of government, which is

not to be effected, but which has been effected in this routine

business, there is the idea of force, and if the idea of force was not

there we would not have gotten anywhere in connection with the securing

of these results, which small as they are, represent an immense advance

upon the old situation. I speak now from the standpoint of the

accomplishment of these coordinating boards,—not as predicting something

that is going to be done, but of the result of that which has been done

during the last six months through coordinating agencies such as your

Federal Board, established by the President of the United States through

the use of his authority and running the routine business of the

Government for the first time upon a business basis.

I make this distinction (for Mr. Burke, for instance) as some

misapprehension may be had in connection with this matter of policy. The

Budget Bureau, is not concerned with policy save that of economy and

efficiency. We are concerned with the routine expenditure of money, of

proper conduct of routine business. It is our business to see that when

money is appropriated by Congress along a certain line or policy with

which we have nothing to do, that that money is spent as economically

and as judiciously and carefully as possible in order to secure the

greatest results along the line of the policy imposed by Congress.

If Congress as a matter of policy should pass a law to put garbage on

the White House steps, it becomes our duty, regrettable as it might be,

to advise Congress and the Executive as to how the largest amount of

garbage may be most expeditiously and economically spread on the White

House steps. And that is why we are safe in demanding what is absolutely

necessary, in every business, in routine matters,—a centralized

authority. There is no democracy in a properly organized business so far

as routine business is concerned. It is a monarchy, and if the sense of

responsibility on the part of the agent to the man at the head of the

corporation, who is responsible for the policy, is lost, the business

goes to pieces, and, if a private business, you go into the hands of the

sheriff.

The trouble is that in the past the Presidents of the United States have

not done their full duty and assumed the control of the routine business

organization of Government. The result is, as is always the case, with a

private or public organization, that when the money is spent by parties

interested alone in spending the money, the plan of the unit over which

the spending head presides takes precedence over the plan of the

organization as a whole.

Now that has been exactly the situation in the United States up to this

time, and in dollars and cents, to say nothing of the matter of the use

of facilities, there has been a waste that is incalculable in the past.

Now, for instance, take this. All this is preliminary but it is very

important. Let me talk about human nature in connection with this matter

of taking order,—this matter of jealousy of prerogative. I sometimes

think we ought all to take a course of study in human nature. I

sometimes think that while in the A. E. F. charged by the

Commander-in-Chief with this same job of coordinating separated

services, the independent services of the Army in connection with the

unified business plan of the A. E. F., and afterwards in trying to

couple up the allies in the same line of endeavor, I had a better chance

than most people to see in its full majesty,—if you choose to look at it

that way—that desire for absolute independence,—that willingness to

subordinate practically everything on earth to hold power which is

characteristic of human nature.

When you have to approach independent power, to induce voluntary

surrender, I have found you might as well give it up in advance. There

is nothing a man holds to like this right to exercise power, and the

best illustration of that is shown by the fact that the greatest war of

all ages was fought for four years without a central command. Napoleon’s

44th maxim in war was that nothing is more important in war than a

unified command, under one chief. Everybody knew it, but it was not

until the unnecessary loss of hundreds of thousands of lives and

billions of dollars worth of material that Great Britain bent its pride

and accepted that plain, common-sense provision of unified command of

the allies under Foch. Not until the fourth year of the war when the

allied cause faced annihilation was such a plain, common-sense provision

as that for central command possible to be made for the allies, and the

certainty of annihilation alone made it possible.

Now do you think it is any different in connection with the independent

jurisdiction of these Government Departments, from the independent

services of the Army?

They talked in the past about Interdepartmental Boards, to correct this

old chaos, when they had no Executive leadership. An effort was made

from time to time by Interdepartmental Boards, acting as a committee

without relinquishment of the independent authority represented to

undertake some of these reforms, the necessity of which everybody saw.

Nothing was ever done to amount to anything. Why? They would meet

together and talk and outline the situation and necessity for action

until some question came up where somebody was going to lose control of

something or a part of his jurisdiction by some coordinated action for

the benefit of the whole Government. Then immediately the whole thing

died out and nothing was accomplished practically by any

Interdepartmental Board, where anything vital had to be given up by one

of the independent members of it, whose jurisdiction and power would be

cut down in the interest of the common plan of the Government.

When the President of the United States assumed this central control of

routine business, he did what any man would do in connection with a

private corporation; he called together in conference the business

administration,—everybody connected with the business of the Government

as head of department or independent establishment—Cabinet Officers

correspond to Vice Presidents in a business corporation. Of necessity

they had allowed this disgraceful system of chaos and extravagance to go

on. It was not their fault any more than it is the fault of you

gentlemen, who have been running along independent lines, because you

were not joined together in a system operating under a central

authority. We all were properly subject to the indictment of loose

business methods because the President of the United States had not

imposed a unified plan and system over us nor had he created the

machinery by which this plan would be carried into effect, as he has

since done.

In connection with surplus supplies, every department formerly was

selling its supplies in the open-market, and other departments were

buying the same kind of supplies in open market. In a number of cases

speculators would come and buy our public sales material from one

department to sell it to another department at two or three times the

price. Real estate was being leased in cities right along from private

owners, when the Government had vacant property to rent. This was the

custom also in connection with motor transport. If any Department wanted

something moved and did not have motor transport, it would go out and

hire motor transportation. There was no machinery by which the empty

motor trucks and idle men of the other departments could be used.

When goods were to be shipped, everybody would route them as they

pleased. There was no unified central authority which could deal with

the services as a whole as regards the classification of freight and the

whole transportation question.

The same thing existed in the making of contracts.

The same thing existed in Government purchasing. There was competition

between the Departments, the Departments themselves not being

coordinated. In the Treasury Department alone we found 18 separate

points of purchasing activity. Everything was run in Government business

as if it was composed of 41 separate corporations. How were things

changed for the better? It is all simple enough. It all depended on the

President because he alone had the authority to impose the methods of

coordinating and controlling this great general business, just as he is

coordinating these great activities here today through this Board,

presided over by his appointee, General Sawyer, a co-ordinator.

The plan which the President adopted was simple enough,—just what would

be done in any business organization—without asking for any additional

legislation for additional employees, but by simply taking from the body

of the employees, officials of the United States, those men especially

qualified by knowledge and experience to act as his agents, and then

creating the machinery through which they could transmit his policy and

plan of unified business to the general organization.

It is the simplest thing in the world, and the only possible objection I

have ever heard was urged the other day where it was said that the

detail of Army and Navy Officers for this central work by the President

might not result in giving him the benefit of absolute impartiality of

judgment because of their former connection with the War and Navy

departments. That nonsense!

For instance, in my bank,—supposing I wanted to take a man from the

Discount Department, from the Foreign Exchange Department, or the Real

Estate Department,—what folly to say that I would be justly afraid that

he would not be my loyal and faithful agent in the imposition of a plan

for the interest of the institution as a whole because of his former

connection with those departments of the bank. What folly to say that

the President of the United States with all his power over personnel can

not receive from men detailed for co-ordinating work the same loyalty as

he would receive from men appointed from the outside to come into this

complex machine. And I say now that the plan must stand or fall upon

that proposition. Regarding Colonel Smither, the Chief Coordinator, or

Commander Stanley, or any of these men who have been connected with the

Army or Navy,—so far as this work is concerned, as agents for the

President of the United States, they are as independent as if they had

never been in the Army or Navy. If anybody thinks they are not, let us

give him an example. We have not found anything but cooperation from the

heads of these departments and the heads of these services because their

personal interests lie parallel now with the unified plan of the

government since the President of the United States to whom they are

responsible, is behind that plan.

If the President becomes indifferent,—if he loses his eyes, and ears and

fingers in matters of routine business in the shape of the Chief

Coordinators of the Boards,—if he lets them drift, immediately there

will come the effort from you and everybody else to pull to pieces this

coordinating machinery which alone is able to impose a unified plan upon

the governmental business.

Now why is it necessary for you to accept, without mental reservation,

the necessity of the existence of this coordinating board under which

you act and the authority of the Chief Coordinator of that board as

representing the President? Let me say in connection with this that the

rights of the independent departments and establishments are jealously

regarded under these executive orders.

What I want to impress upon the minds of all is the necessity of these

co-ordinating boards to enable you to do your work properly.

Take it in ships. In coordinating shipping transportation, you have got

to have Mr. Weeks, Mr. Denby and Mr. Lasker in contact in connection

with a decision involving the economical use of ships. How can anybody

get them together without the authority of the President? Suppose I was

expected to call them together without the authority of the President. I

would go to Mr. Weeks for example and wait until the Senators were

through seeing him, and then perhaps because of his personal friendship

persuade him to go over with me to see Mr. Denby. When we had seen Denby

how could we get the two together with Lasker? You could not get

anywhere in this co-ordinating work without a delegated authority from

the President to compel contact between high officials.

In connection with this great work of yours in which you spent last year

three-fourths of a billion dollars, you cannot have it run right without

the existence of this co-ordinating Board,—without that authority to

make a bird’s-eye view of the whole situation,—without that authority to

say why this building, for example, is unnecessary, because there exists

a superfluity of this sort of building in another department. What’s the

use of endeavoring to catalogue those activities in which there is

duplication, in which you have got to have the bird’s-eye view, and

would never get proper action taken, unless you have in existence this

Board created by the authority of the President!

In connection with the rights of your department, for instance, there is

preserved for you at all times in connection with the coordinating order

of the Federal Board of Hospitalization, a right of appeal to the

President of the United States. If this Coordinating Board interferes to

such an extent with the plans of your unit that you think the

disadvantage so great that it counterbalances the beneficial effect to

the government as a whole, the right of appeal to the President is with

you. But for the first time in the government, as you know, there will

be presented to the President by the Chief Coordinator the interests of

the government treated from the standpoint of the Coordinating Board, so

that the President of the United States in making his decision on your

matter has the strongest possible statement of the needs of the unit

from you, and the strongest possible statement of the needs of the

government as a whole from the President of the Board. But the final

authority, of course, is in the President of the United States and he

will exercise it. In all of these orders the right of the head of the

independent unit to a proper examination, by the supreme authority, of

his plan is preserved, and it has been so in connection with all of

these coordinating agencies and with the Director of the Budget.

Let me tell you something as to the spirit of cooperation shown. I have

never had a contest before the President with a cabinet officer or head

of a department in connection with a coordinating action. I have never

had one for this reason. Take in connection with the transfer of

ships,—we have independent agencies for the examination of conditions.

We have the right, as agents of the President, of obtaining information

from any bureau chief or head of a department.

We have, through Colonel Smither’s wonderful organization of course, the

means for securing essential knowledge about these things.

Regarding ships,—we asked the Navy the other day for a couple of mine

sweepers for the Coast and Geodetic Survey. They refused. That was

always the case in the old days. Of course, everybody looks out for the

interest of his own department. Well I called over one of the Assistant

Secretaries of the Navy, and gave him a bird’s-eye view of the

situation.

They had 49 mine sweepers; and they were going out of commission. If

they went to the Coast and Geodetic Survey, they would be kept in

commission and would not deteriorate so rapidly. What is more, if they

didn’t go to the Geodetic Survey, the United States would have to ask

for a million dollars to build new ships.

That matter was taken back and proper attention given to it with this

knowledge of the whole situation and the Secretary of the Navy joined in

the request that the ships be transferred.

It was not the Secretary of the Navy who had really been responsible for

the first decision. It was some fellow along down the line, without the

bird’s-eye view, who has been safe for a hundred years from the eye of a

central authority, thinking in terms of the whole government—doing what

he believed his duty, I admit, in directing things for the best

interests of his unit, but who, without the bird’s-eye view would have

thrown the Government into an unnecessary expense of a million dollars.

It then developed when the Coast and Geodetic Survey people went to get

the mine sweepers, that they were in process of repair; that the engines

were disassembled. Now the Coast and Geodetic Survey had no

appropriation available for repairing work and so the Navy said, “We

won’t spend our money on those ships.”

“Why?”

“Because the President of the United States told us to be economical.”

Now supposing there had not been in existence an agency acting under the

President, such as the one here presided over by General Sawyer which

could see what was really involved in that action on the part of the

head of that subordinate unit of the Navy. Because the Navy wanted to

save a repair bill of $10,240.00 the Government would have spent

unnecessarily $1,000,000 for new ships. Do not think that was an unusual

case! It was almost always so in the old days.

Now nobody has been more anxious than the Secretary of the Navy to

cooperate in those matters but he must have information,—and you must

have the information,—to enable one to cooperate. All that was necessary

for me to do was to write to the Secretary of the Navy, that unless

these ships were repaired out of the Navy appropriation at a cost of

$10,240 we would have had to ask for a million dollars appropriation for

new ships. But what if that information had not been given?

The existence of these agencies is necessary to enable this Government

to be run on a business basis. I have given you a simple illustration in

connection with the ships. We transferred thirteen ships with the

acquiescence of the heads of the departments concerned by simply

developing the bird’s-eye view of the situation without ever taking the

matter up with the President, except for the issuance of the Executive

order by agreement.

The patriotic head of a unit really welcomes this system by which he is

given the information which enables him to run the activities of his

particular institution in the interest of the Government as a whole.

I repeat you must have that bird’s-eye view of the necessities of the

Government as a whole, which alone you can secure through the authority

of the President as exercised through the Coordinator of the Board you

have here. It is absolutely necessary that there should be no

withholding of the spirit of cooperation and loyalty to your

Coordinator. There should be no feeling that your independent

jurisdiction is going to be unnecessarily curtailed and interfered with.

There is the right of appeal, and it is just as important to the proper

functioning of the whole governmental business machine that you have

courageous defense of the department unit as you have courageous defense

of the policies of coordination.

There is no proper room for friction; and so far as the Budget Bureau is

concerned and the coordinating agencies headed by Colonel Smithers, we

have had a minimum of friction with the departments. There have been

transferred over $112,000,000 dollars worth of property between these

departments within the last six months. $100,000 per year is being saved

in the comparatively small thing right here in the District of Motor

transportation.

Anybody who stands against the principle of this thing is a man, in the

first place, who is not intelligent. He is a man in the second place who

is not loyal; and he is a man, in the third place, who is in danger, in

view of the accomplishments of this coordinating work. What excuses are

there for anyone not to give his loyal cooperation to the President of

the United States, who, for the first time, has undertaken to be

responsible for a correct system of routine business?

One other thing in connection with the spirit of economy:—the President

of the United States has asked it. He asked it here in the first meeting

of the Govt. business organization last June at which some of you were

present. That request of his has received response. I find over the

country that for the first time in government, economy has become

fashionable, and extravagance dangerous; and all over the country, in

the post office service, the Army service—in all Govt. activities. There

is the spirit of loyal cooperation under the leadership of the President

in the matter of economy.

We know, too, what you have been trying to do in that way in your own

service is resulting in an immense saving to the Government.

What we need are men in authority to help us find out where savings can

be made. We have only scratched the surface, but it is possible now, as

we get the business of the Government in the proper, organized shape, to

determine where the limit of economy is. We do not know yet, because our

reorganization of routine business methods has not gone on long enough.

We have only been in operation four or five months. It will be a year or

two possibly before the extent of economies can be determined.

But in directing the prevention of duplication, etc., in the general

attitude of being desirous to save, as opposed to the old attitude of

being desirous to spend,—all that means that the Government of the

United States can be run more economically than at present provided the

President of the United States gives his attention to the business

organization and he will.”

General Dawes concluded his remarks, and as he walked from the stage

General Ireland made a suggestion that he say something in connection

with coordination within the limits of a department itself. General

Dawes then said:

“General Ireland asks that I speak about a most important matter. We

cannot get general coordination among the departments unless each

department is coordinated within itself. For instance, we found that in

the Treasury Department there were about eighteen separate points of

purchasing activity. No one man was in touch with all these agencies.

The representative of the Treasury department on the coordinating board,

therefore, could not speak for the eighteen agencies. Therefore, each

institution must coordinate within itself in order that its

representative can properly speak for it on the coordinating board, to

say nothing about the desirability of coordination from the standpoint

of the business of that particular department. Therefore, get your units

coordinated.

In connection with this whole matter of hospitalization, the eyes of the

country are on you, who are charged with this great responsibility. No

body of men in Government service has more complexing situations to meet

than you have. You are surrounded by every embarrassment. In these days,

when the pinhead demagogues are flourishing; when the mere politician is

willing to capitalize anything, even a wounded soldier, to catch votes,

you know that you are liable to have your constructive work unjustly

attacked. To get into the lime-light many men will sacrifice right

principles, and it is distressing to see the antics of the puny men in

public life seeking to ingratiate themselves in public favor in

connection with soldier relief. The demagogue has no hesitation in

attacking those things which are right only provided they happen to be

unpopular. His mind, unlike yours, is not on the real good of the

soldier. He is thinking what the newspapers may say about him.

You must be courageous; you must work for the real good of the soldier;

you must work for the real good of the Government; and I will tell you

something. There is no privilege so great, which comes with public life,

as to courageously stand for that which is right, and in so doing take

castigation from demagogues for doing one’s duty. It all comes out right

in the long run.

In the midst of your discouraging embarrassments, when carefully thought

out measures of sane relief for wounded veterans are often attacked by

unscrupulous men, who thereby can advertise for a little time their

insignificant personalities; if you sometimes are tempted to take the

easy way and join the yelping pack of destructive critics, be comforted

in the thought of that everlasting truth that in the long run the man

who fearlessly does right in public place survives, and the man who

weakly takes the wrong way because it is easy receives only ignominy.”

GEN. SAWYER: It seems unnecessary for me to say, still it is only fair to

General Dawes, that he has injected into the affairs of Government the

greatest enthusiasm and the most interest that has been known in

Government affairs in all the history of the Republic.

His idea of coordination, which came to him out of the trying experience

of the war on the other side has certainly served him a wonderful

purpose in the effects that he has brought about in this new plan of

conducting the affairs of the Administration on a business basis, and I

certainly hope that each of you, as you go back to your fields of

activity, will carry with you the idea that you have a most responsible

position. No matter how small your institution, the responsibilities,

the liabilities and the needs are all the same.

It may interest you to know that in the few weeks this present Board has

existed, we have been able to turn over to the various hospitals of the

country in which we have been particularly and necessarily interested,

in a hurry, several million dollars worth of property. Arrangements are

now in operation whereby in caring and preparing for nearly 11,000 new

beds, we have in mind to avail ourselves of the great resources of the

Army and Navy in supplying these needs; and I must say out of fairness

to the heads of those Departments, as represented by the medical

departments, that more hearty cooperation could not be obtained. To give

you an evidence of something of the difference of today and yesterday,

early last summer an appeal came to me to provide some cots for one of

your institutions. It was impossible for me to locate cots that I could

make accessible for the purpose, and one day one of our own

representatives from this Board looking about found 80 car-loads of

these cots at Des Moines, Iowa. Now when we are in need of cots, we know

where to find them and know how to get possession of them; and this is

true of all the things that are really necessary in the conduct of your

affairs.

I am here to say to you without any fear of contradiction that this

Hospitalization Board has already accomplished some very helpful things,

and we have many more things in mind. One thing we do not assume, and

that is authority. We have no idea or desire of being autocratic in our

administration but we have a firm determination that regardless of any

sentiment or any emotion which may be brought to influence the affairs

of this Board, we will go on with what we believe to be the best thing

for the men we are trying to serve.

I believe that the service we should render and that we must render, and

the only service that is worth while to the veteran, is to make him well

if possible, and, if not, to make him as nearly well as he can be and as

resourceful as he can be and put him back into life again with

confidence in himself, with respect to his Government and with ambition

to make America the leading Government of all the governments of the

world.

I am here to say to you that while you are talking to your patients

about the affairs that arise with you each day, do not forget as a part

of your responsibility and your duty that you help to create a spirit

and a determination on the part of the man you are serving to get back

into life again. Discourage in every way you possibly can the idea of

his becoming a barnacle upon this great Ship of State. Encourage him to

believe that the responsibility of the debts that are incurred here now

are debts his children and his grandchildren will have to pay; and so,

while we are talking economy to you, I would impress upon you this one

thought: that economy is only the assurance to yourself that every

hundred cents buys a dollar’s worth. We do not mean by the economy we

are trying to preach here economy that might be regarded as

penuriousness. We want you to have all you need in the best way that it

can be provided for you, but we want you to have concern enough in the

property that is turned over to you to see that it is worth what you pay

for it and that it is used to the best advantage possible.

Yesterday, we decided, I believe, that we would devote an hour this

morning to the answering of some miscellaneous interrogations. Dr.

White, have you received any?

DR. WHITE: No.

SURGEON W. H. SANFORD (R): Having spent the last year and a half in the

Inspection Division, the subject of this excessive amount of money in

the hands of the sick soldier has impressed itself on me more and more

as I inspected the hospitals. It was the cause of great trouble, and is

in my opinion doing more to hinder the patient than any one factor.

Without this $80.00 or $157.50 a month, the vice and crime and drinking

around the institutions could not exist, and therefore I believe that

one of the greatest things that could be accomplished at this Conference

would be for the Committee to promulgate some way of preventing these

men from using that money in the way it is being used today.

I have inspected Ft. Bayard, Ft. Stanton and other large institutions in

the West, and I know these men in charge will agree with me when I say

that the thing that hampers the recovery of the patients is their right

to expend the money the way they want. If they didn’t have it, the

rum-runner and the other vices that come would not be there. I think it

is one of the most important subjects we could settle, and suggest that

it would be well if the Committee would recommend that we give these

men, say, $15.00 a month, and take care of the rest of their money until

they are ready to go back to their homes.

SURGEON J. E. MILLER (R): At our hospital we have a canteen. I suppose most

hospitals have canteens. We have had $3,000 paid into the

hospital—$3,000 a year profit on sales to soldiers. I think such money

could be turned in for the benefit of the soldiers, for entertainments,

Christmas dinners, etc., as that seems the proper place for it.

MR. M. SANGER (St. Elizabeths Hospital): With reference to those funds of

the beneficiaries who are in hospitals, a similar condition

existed for a while with reference to those drawing pensions. That

proposition had to be met. Congress passed a law whereby those people

receiving pensions, who entered soldiers’ homes or hospitals had to pay

that money either to the superintendent of the hospital, the President

of the Soldiers’ Home, or the Governor of the Home, to be cared for the

benefit of the pensioner. Those who had beneficiaries at home received

the benefit of their portion of the pension under supervision of the

Pension Office, the Pension Office having machinery to find out what

beneficiaries had dependents, etc., and what proportion of the pension

should be paid to them.

The only thing in connection with these funds paid to the hospitals

which led to complaint was the money paid to heads of hospitals or

Soldiers’ Homes for deposit in the Treasury, but which was not drawing

interest. This needs corrective legislation. Precedents are at hand.

Moneys paid into the Treasury by beneficiaries or enlisted men of the

Army or Navy are drawing interest. The money from these pensioners

should be drawing interest. These funds, whether from the pensioners or

beneficiaries of the War Risk Bureau should be used as a sinking-fund

possibly to retire the debt of the Government and in that manner to draw

interest. It would help the Government in becoming part of the

sinking-fund; it would help the veteran in that it would permit the

money received to be deposited for his benefit, and would give an

opportunity for regulations to be made to safeguard him; to prevent

these people from coming around the institutions by preventing his

having excessive money to spend. Then when the man is discharged, he

would have an estate with which to begin life and to provide for the

future.

I think this organization should give some consideration to this matter.

I refer to Acts of February 20, 1905 and February 7, 1909, and similar

acts in regard to Soldiers’ Homes. I think the one thing to be

considered is a means of investing these funds for drawing interest.

MAJOR GENERAL M. W. IRELAND: The question of patients having money while in

the hospital is one of the most demoralizing things that can happen. It

has been recognized in the Army for many years.

In the Philippines we had a sympathetic commanding officer and we

received permission to with-hold a certain portion of the funds. Then we

received word from the Secretary of War that it was contrary to law;

that the money was earned by the soldier, and had to be paid to him.

I think you are going to find the same is true of compensation. If you

are going to hold the compensation of the man while he is in the

hospital, you will have to get an Act of Congress. I think, therefore,

that you should consider the amount of compensation the man should get

while in the hospital; consider the proposition of maybe reducing his

compensation while in the hospital, being cared for by the Government.

SENIOR SURGEON J. E. DEDMAN (R): I am glad this subject came up. A year and

a half ago, a committee of T. B. experts came to our hospital and we

discussed that question. I made the statement that many of the men in

our hospitals were getting too much money. It was immediately taken up

by the American Legion, and they said all kinds of unkind things about

me. I said that men who never had any money in their lives single boys,

etc., were getting $80.00 a month and that this was too much money.

I cited the instance of where a lady came into my office, weeping. She

said she had been dependent upon her son; that he had gotten that day a

check for $1200; had bought an automobile for $1500; and had gone $300

in debt.

The greatest set of vultures we have to contend with are the automobile

salesmen. For instance, they come and sell to our boys for $700 cars

which would sell for $400. If the boy has $500, they charge him $750 in

order to get notes and keep him in debt.

I am in favor of getting an Act of Congress to put the man’s money at

interest, so that when he is rehabilitated he will have something to

take care of himself. As it is now the boys are spending their money for

hootch, automobiles, etc., and instead of rehabilitating them we are

ruining them.

MR. M. SANGER, St. Elizabeths’ Hospital: In regard to the question of

General Ireland, the pension regulations include a provision that one

part of the pension shall be devoted to reimbursing the hospital for

part of the care. I think that would serve in a way to admit of those in

hospital getting less while there than when outside.

SENIOR SURGEON G. B. YOUNG, U.S.P.H.S. While on the subject I offer the

suggestion that something might be done along this line in connection

with the disciplinary regulations, which provide that when a man is

discharged for disciplinary reasons his compensation will be withheld

for a certain period. We all know that we sometimes will have to

discharge people for disciplinary reasons, and it may happen that the

offense is of such a character and the man of such a character as to

make you feel that the sentence you have to impose upon him as compared

to that which you have to impose upon a flagrant offender is lacking in

elasticity. It seems to me that it would be well in this connection to

consider whether the regulations could provide for the with-holding of

compensation by the Veterans’ Bureau for a greater period as an

incentive to better conduct, so that the man might be returned to the

hospital with the incentive that if he behaves satisfactorily that this

money which had been withheld would be restored. As it is a man has to

be discharged and he goes out penniless, because he hasn’t anything

coming to him for several months. If he could look forward to a

suspended sentence, I think that would save some of the better element

among these possible unintentional offenders and get them back into a

line of good behavior.

COLONEL JAMES A. MATTISON, N.H.D.V.S. This question which was brought up by

Congressman Madden, General Ireland and others is a very pertinent one.

This method of handling the funds of men of former wars has been in

effect in the National Home service for many years. The matter just

spoken of in regard to handling this money in a disciplinary way has

also been a feature. In regard to the men who have been offenders, who

have been continually guilty of getting drunk, the commanding officer of

each hospital had the authority to with-hold, as a disciplinary measure,

any part or the whole of a man’s pension until such time as he saw fit

to turn the money over to the man or a part of it. Of course the matter

of with-holding pension money in the case of men of former wars is of

much less importance. Formerly, these men were getting $10, $20 and $25

a month, and when Congress passed a pension law providing $30 a month,

they saved money. That does not compare with the pensions our soldiers

of the recent war are receiving, $80, $100 and $150 a month, and, as has

been stated by several men already, it has been and is going to continue

to be one of the greatest factors in preventing these men from being

restored to an active state in life again.

In the matter of the corrupt conditions which have been described as

existing around these hospitals, it is something that cannot be

prevented. Every effort has been made. The civil authorities have been

appealed to and in most cases they have given undivided co-operation.

Personally, I feel that it is an exceedingly important matter.

SURGEON J. B. ANDERSON (R): If I have interpreted the regulations correctly,

we are not permitted to have a canteen around the hospital. If I am in

error, I should like to know it.

LIEUT. COL. W. H. MONCRIEF, U.S.A.: Contrary to the impression given here

yesterday afternoon, revelry does not maintain at Fitzsimmons Hospital.

I think we have a well-ordered institution. The matter of compensation

does give us some concern.

We have four classes of patients,—Army, Navy, beneficiaries of Soldiers’

Homes and of the Veterans’ Bureau. On the day I left, we had a total of

980 patients, 719 of which were Veterans’ Bureau beneficiaries. These

are officers, ex-nurses and ex-enlisted men. I will say that the

behavior of these people during my tour of duty at the hospital compares

favorably with that of any other institution. We have our troubles; if

we didn’t have them, I don’t suppose the institution would need a

commanding officer.

But the question of compensation is one that is not easily adjusted

unless it is adjusted at the source. It is impossible to give you an

idea—unless you have charge of one of these institutions—of how much

trouble the commanding officer is going to have if the responsibility of

withholding this compensation is put on him.

We are near a large city—not too near and not too far—but we are

surrounded by people who want to offer at all times every inducement to

the enlisted men to spend this amount of compensation in the most

advantageous manner. This class ranges from the peddler of tin toys to

the most reliable banking firms in the city of Denver. Those bank

representatives wait on us. Since I have been there, I have had to

pursue the policy of excluding from the reservation all solicitation

whatsoever, my argument being that it was my duty, to protect the T. B.

patients; that if one solicitor were allowed, others must be allowed;

and that I had no time nor inclination to pass upon the merits of the

various propositions offered. I have not had a great deal of trouble;

and since I have been able to get the representative people to

understand this situation—and I take particular pains to inform all my

personnel that reputable firms and others are aware of this

prohibition—it is assumed that anyone soliciting on the reservation is

not reputable.

I think a great deal can be done in regard to taking care of this matter

by the social service work in the hospitals. The good people of Denver

have been very kind in every way.

DR. BUTLER: In view of the fact that economy seems to be the order of the

day, and to have economy the bird’s-eye view has been pointed out to

organizations this morning, I suggest that as a fitting slogan for this

body, the words. “Cultivate a bird’s-eye view” be adopted.

GENERAL SAWYER: I don’t know just what authority you gentlemen have in

regard to the matter of solicitors, but at White Oaks Farm if

interruptions such as these attempted to exist, somebody would get hurt.

I would not tolerate the existence of such affairs. There is no reason

why you should, and if there is any reason why you shouldn’t, this Board

can help you to bring about some regulation or some rule whereby it will

be possible for you to protect yourselves and your people against such

imposition as this. Be assured that this Board is going to provide it;

but I really think that if you will exercise your authority as

commanding officers and not allow these people to intrude upon you, you

will be able to cure a lot of your difficulties at home.

SURGEON J. M. WHEATE (R), U.S.P.H.S.: A year ago we were swarmed with

agents, and I sent out a hospital regulation prohibiting that. It is

easy to issue regulations, but hard to put them into effect, so I have

made it a rule to make my regulations as few as possible. This, however,

I found to be a necessary regulation, and I prohibited agents of all

kinds from access to the hospital.

We have a hundred-acre field, which is approachable in a hundred

different ways, and there is no way of keeping such agents out of the

reservation. I had my Captain of the Watch made a Deputy United States

Marshal. I had my head orderly made a constable for the county. They

helped me to maintain order outside the reservation.

The matter of compensation has been a big problem with all of us. I

recall that about the first time I got “in bad” with my patients was

early in the game. I was waited on by a delegation of patients in my

office one morning, who asked if I were properly quoted in the morning

paper. I had not seen the paper.

A day or two before, a committee of Legion men called at my office (we

had most happy relations with the local Legion heads). One of this

Committee was the editor of a local paper. Among the general things we

discussed was the abuse of compensation. I said I wished we had some law

like Canada, whereby all but one-fourth of the compensation could be

withheld, as I believed that ten dollars a month was enough for a sick

man in the hospital. This was discussed and it sounded reasonable.

The next day, to my surprise, the editor of the local paper printed the

story of my recommendation; and the young chap, thinking I suppose to

give me the credit for the thought, quoted me freely.

The soldiers appointed a committee to wait on me. They wanted to know if

I thought it fair to the United States soldier. They said it was their

money and that they proposed to spend it as they saw fit.

Out of this controversy grow consideration by the Legion; and in course

of time that Legion Post sent a committee man to Washington, who had a

long conference with Mr. Sweet; and indirectly I may be much to be

condemned or praised for introducing into the Sweet Bill the measure of

withholding compensation. Our committee man who went up there stated

that it was a rather new thought to Mr. Sweet and that he waved it aside

at first, but that later he showed interest and finally said he was

going to rewrite his bill, incorporating that idea.

But it did not go nearly as far as I recommended; that is, the adoption

of the Canadian form of withholding all but one-fourth. There is no need

to discuss that. Mr. Sweet said it was illegal; that compensation is a

wage; but he compromised by saying we could fine the men.

Regarding my drastic order, I might add that I do allow the agents of

the banks to come in, and I am proud to say that we do handle much of

our trouble by depositing money either for checking accounts or savings.

I think that about forty per cent of our men are carrying savings

accounts in the local banks.

We have at least 160 N. P. cases in my hospital, although it is

officially a T. B. hospital. As you know, the regulation provides that

if a man is not capable of handling his money, his compensation check

will be sent to the Commanding Officer, who is held responsible for the

money. I put the money in the bank, giving to the man, after conferring

with the Chief of the N. P. Section, such funds as he may need.

SURGEON M. J. WHITE: Early in 1919, when I first opened Palo Alto, I made

recommendation for the amendment of the Act, so that the Compensation of

a patient might be held until he had completely recovered, and I see no

reason why there is a legal bar to it. I think Congress can say that

Compensation is payable when a man has completely recovered and is

discharged from the hospital. We cannot undertake to protect the

patients from sharks. For instance, we give a man a pass; he goes down

town and spends his money. As long as he has money in his pocket, he

will spend it. I think it would be legal for Congress to say that

Compensation will be payable when the man has reached maximum hospital

treatment or when he is properly discharged. Otherwise, if a patient has

accumulated, say, $160, he starts a disturbance and you have to give him

the money.

CAPTAIN F. W. Wieber, U.S.N.:—I am glad to say that we have had very little

trouble with our Veterans’ Bureau patients. We have, however, had

trouble occasionally, but I have always been able to attend to these

matters myself, for I have a good understanding with a U. S. Attorney,

who helps me out.

Regarding money, it would be the best thing if most of the Compensation

to the men could be withheld. They may have dependent families, so no

uniform rule could guide us in our action. I do not think it should be

left to the Commanding Officer, for in the first place, we do not know

how much money the men should receive.

With regard to the matter of smuggling into the reservation, I sent a

request to the Surgeon General to be allowed to put up a fence but I

have never heard from it. I am going to recommend to my successor that

he call attention to that matter again. The reservation at Fort Lyon

covers 1100 acres, and a portion should be enclosed with a fence. There

has been much stealing there, and we have often found the stolen

articles in houses around the reservation. The building of a fence would

be expensive, but it would counter-balance the loss of government

property.

For the benefit of the gentlemen who may succeed at Fort Lyon soon, I

might say that when I was ordered to Fort Lyon I was very much grieved;

I knew it was in a desert, and everybody who had been there gave such a

discouraging report. My sentiment in that matter has changed to such an

extent that if the place had remained in the hands of the Navy, I should

have liked to have remained there. We are a happy family of about

fourteen commissioned officers and we have formed a little community of

ourselves, being independent of the outside world to a large extent. We

have our power house, ice plant, community house, social meetings, and

in fact we are as independent as can be.

During the flood, we were able, for about two weeks to attend to our own

things, and after that we were able to help the outsiders. So, to those

gentlemen I want to say that they need not be disconsolate upon

receiving orders to go to Fort Lyon.

I think it is ideal for the T. B. patients. We have the dry climate,

constant sun-shiny days, cool nights, and everything conducive to the

proper treatment of T. B. Everything is complete, and the people are

greatly benefited by their stay in our vicinity, as can be attested by

the fact that many former Navy People, who had been in the institution,

are now living there and are as strong as any person in the East.

I might say that the people who have had T. B. and who are doing well

out west had better make up their minds to stay our there for fear that

change of conditions might bring about activity again in their cases.

Regarding a uniform system of treatment as suggested, I do not believe

any strict rules should be set. We can have a sort of general system,

but no uniform method as to the hours of rest, food, etc. At Fort Lyon,

rest is now being enforced, and every patient gets two rest periods, i.

e., from 9 to 11 A.M. and from 1 to 3 P.M. Liberty is allowed only once

a week; and overnight, once a month. Those who would be discontented

anywhere have left, and those who have stayed feel they have our

sympathy and support and are doing well.

GENERAL SAWYER asked for resolutions from the Resolutions Committee.

GENERAL IRELAND: “Your committee has gone over the resolutions that have

been presented, and we find all of them in order, with the exception of

one submitted by Colonel Bratton with reference to transportation home.

We would inform you that there will have to be legislation to carry out

that resolution. We have changed the resolution to read as follows:

‘That the Director of the U.S. Veterans’ Bureau be requested to

secure legislation so that the expenses of the patient’s

transportation to his bona fide home, when he has been discharged

for disciplinary reasons, be deducted from his compensation, when

compensation is being given, or may be given thereafter.’

As changed, I recommend that the resolution be adopted by the meeting as

read.”

This _Motion_ was seconded, and carried.

CAPTAIN N. J. BLACKWOOD, U. S. N.:—The Committee on Forms has held two

meetings at which the general subject of this work was discussed and

plans agreed upon. This work is so great that your Committee finds it

impossible to report more than progress at present. The whole matter

must be gone into carefully and thoroughly in order to avoid mistakes

and duplications of the past. The work, to be a success, will require

frequent meetings, careful study and cooperation. Therefore, it seems

wise that all members of the Committee be officers on duty in

Washington, and I recommend that the present chairman, Captain

Blackwood, be relieved, and that his place be filled by Captain M. S.

Elliott, Commanding Officer of the Naval Hospital; also, that all

Commanding Officers here present shall, as soon as possible after

returning to their respective commands, take up the subject of forms and

paper work regarding Veterans’ Bureau patients, and as soon thereafter

as possible submit to the Veterans’ Bureau, Washington, recommendations

and suggestions for the elimination, provision and simplification both

of the forms themselves and their numbers.

Upon receipt of these letters, your Committee will then take up the

whole subject in a more comprehensive way and will, as soon as possible,

submit its recommendations for your consideration and approval.

The _MOTION_ was seconded and carried.

Meeting adjourned at 12:30 P. M.

_Eighth Session_ Friday, January 20, 1922.

Honorable Charles H. Burke presiding.

The roll was called by Dr. W. A. White.

MR. BURKE: “We will proceed with the afternoon program. The first subject is

“Foreign Relations of the U.S. Veterans’ Bureau in care of ex-soldiers

of the former allied countries.” It will be discussed by Dr. F. D.

Hester of the Veterans’ Bureau”.

DR. HESTER: read as follows:

“FOREIGN RELATIONS OF THE U.S. VETERANS’ BUREAU

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