5. Epileptic and hysterical cases.

I might say that out of every fifteen cases sent in with diagnosis of

epilepsy, about twelve or thirteen of them proved, after careful

observation for a period of from two to three months, to be hysterical.

That was about our ratio on cases sent in.

Our procedure was much like Dr. Kolb’s at Waukesha. The man was given

complete physical, neurological, examination first. We had a special

consultant who visited the hospital about once a week. After a man had

his examination, he was checked as needing further examination in eye,

ear, nose and throat, or x-ray,—whatever was indicated in the case, and

that was tabulated on the chart and checked against his examination. At

the end of that time each ward surgeon prepared a summary of the case

and a decision was made as to whether the patient needed a short term of

treatment in our own hospital,—we had there occupational therapy and

other methods of treatment,—and then be discharged and sent back to his

home.

In connection with the in-patient hospital work, we had a committee at

the district supervisor’s office made up of one representative at the

Bureau of War Risk Insurance, one from the Federal Board, the

neuro-psychiatric contact officer and one representative from the Public

Health Service. We tried to place the men in some definite schedule,—the

Federal Board, if possible, after he was discharged from the hospital,

and we would bring our problem cases to this meeting, where they would

be taken up and such arrangements made for their further treatment as

necessary. The contact man visited the station once or twice a week to

familiarize himself with the problems of each man.

The out-patient department was naturally on a different schedule; that

is, certain hours of the day were set aside and definite offices

assigned to the out-patient department; they kept track of their own

patients, who reported in at intervals of two or three times a week,

every two or three weeks, according to the needs of the case. If the man

needed some special treatment, he came into the hospital for that

treatment and at the same time he saw this ward surgeon and talked the

case over with him. Just as soon as that patient was ready for

vocational training, he was put into touch with our contact officer and

a schedule was made out for him.

In regard to the vocational training for epileptics, a great many cases

during the year I was at Chicago, came up to that board for

consideration. We tried the epileptic at various occupations; kept him

away from machinery so as no injury would come to him, and we succeeded

in rehabilitating only two epileptics out of the whole group. These two

were given positions in factories that were owned or governed by some

relative or friend who had taken an interest in then, disregarding the

compensation laws and disregarding the inability of the men to work when

they would have a seizure. In two instances only have we succeeded in

putting men into training where it proved a success.

DR. MCLAKE: I represent the National Sanitorium in Marion, Indiana. Presume

all of you have heard more or less about it. It was organized about a

year ago; opened on the first of January as a sanitorium. During the

past year we have cared for about 1500 patients. The present Census is

800.

Now this institution was opened under a provision that it was to be used

for the hospitalization of reasonably curable cases. In other words, it

was not to be an asylum. It was not a place for merely domiciliary

residence or custodial care. The needs of hospitalization, however, this

year, have been such that we have taken all sorts of cases. As this has

been a matter of discussion for many hospitals and in many districts, I

want to take half a minute to show you that during the past year and at

the present time, I am hospitalizing at Marion nearly every variety of

n.p. case which we have.

Up to the present time we have had no special accommodation whatsoever

for n.p.-t.b. patients. Our institution is built on the cottage plan and

in the preliminary survey and construction no provision was mode for

t.b. patients. However, at the present time I have one ward which is

filled with eleven of these cases. I may say in this connection that we

are expecting to build a t.b.-n.p. unit of eighty beds and will start

construction in about five or six months, which will be gratifying to

you men who have these combined cases and would like to unload them and

as soon as we can take these cases off your hands we will be glad to do

so.

In that connection I want to emphasize one thing: that in your general

hospitals and in your t.b. hospitals you get many cases toward the end

of this t.b. condition, which present n.p. symptoms. Now I know from

experience at Fort Bayard and in other t.b. sanitoriums, especially at

Fort Bayard, where I was associated several years with Colonel Burke,

that these patients become exceedingly troublesome and exceedingly

annoying. However, if you are perfectly frank with yourself and

perfectly frank with the n.p. man, you will admit that these cases are

not primarily n.p. cases, but cases of terminal toxemia. I don’t believe

myself that these cases should be hospitalized as n.p. I believe in your

t.b. hospitals you should set aside a ward or two or three wards where

you can take care of your terminal toxemias whose symptoms are

principally mental; they should not be unloaded on the n.p. hospitals

which are built and equipped for reasonably curable cases of n.p.

disease.

As to what General Sawyer said about many of these n.p. cases living

outside. I want to most heartily indorse that attitude, and I will say

in that connection that during the past year I have turned out between

two and three hundred men because I firmly believe in that view. My

method for turning out these n.p. cases is as follows:

After a final conference on a man after preliminary observation, if we

feel that he has come to the point where he should be given a chance, we

give that man a thirty-day parole. If he has a guardian, his guardian

must report every ten days. If he has not a guardian he is placed in

communication with the Veterans’ Bureau officer, or a Red Cross worker

in the District, in which he is paroled.

In other words, during the first thirty days I get three reports as to

his condition. If after thirty days he is still doing well, I grant an

extension of thirty days. During the second thirty days he reports in

twice. If he is still doing well at the end of sixty days, the parole is

extended to ninety. I believe in the majority of our cases that if a man

makes good for ninety days, it is reasonable to suppose that he is going

to make sufficient adjustment to stay outside of the institution. If, as

I said, his report at the end of ninety days is a good one, he is then

discharged from the Institution, with the privilege, of course, of

returning. Now of all the men I have sent out under that scheme this

year, I have had less than eight per cent of returns, and I consider

that in the first year a fairly good average.

I want to commend that scheme to every man who has charge of an n.p.

hospital and after this conference adjourns, I would like to correspond

with you on that subject. I would like to compare notes because I

believe it is worthy of attention.

There is one other thing brought up in a previous meeting and that was

the question of our constitutional psychopath, and drug addict and the

building of special hospitals for these men. I personally am not in

favor of such a scheme and I will tell you why. I have a considerable

number of these men. I believe that every complete n.p. hospital should

have a department with definite numbers assigned from the staff who are

particularly clever in handling this line of case. I think that they

should be handled in your regular n.p. hospital as a separate unit.

Now there is just one thing in connection with that statement I wish to

emphasize. There are a certain number of these men who do eventually

make an adjustment. For the sake of that percentage alone we should not

place the stigma upon them of being sent to practically a penal

institution, and that is what it means if you set aside a place and

brand it as a place for those of criminal tendencies and drug addicts.

We tried that in New York and you all know from the papers what it

resulted in.

There has been another plea. Dr. Treadway spoke of the shortage of

personnel. It is acute everywhere in every department. Then on top of

that comes the plea from the general hospital men, from the t.b.

hospital men, for neuro-psychiatrists to be assigned to his staff. That

is a physical impossibility. There are not enough n.p. men to go around

and I have a solution of that which I have put up to numerous men and

that is just this. Along with what General Sawyer said today about every

one’s being a well-rounded out man, every man who has charge of a

hospital, every man who is on the staff of a hospital taking care of

ex-service men ought to go down and buy a copy of White’s Outlines and

study it for the next six months. If you will do that you don’t need

specialists on your staff. You can make a near enough diagnosis so you

will be reasonably certain in 95% of your cases as to whether they ought

to be sent to an n.p. hospital or not.

DR. FULLER: I an particularly interested in the question of personnel. The

shortage of neuro-psychiatric trained personnel and physicians is a real

and very acute problem. We have any number of vacancies for such men in

the Public Health Service at the present time. I dare say the same

conditions exist in the Army and Navy. I believe that the only way of

solving the problem that Dr. McLake spoke of is for the Commending

Officers of those hospitals who have one psychiatrist on their

staff,—and practically all the large hospitals have one on their

staff,—to insist that these psychiatrists interest other members of the

staff. The fact that Dr. Treadway brought out, that most young men are

not interested in psychiatry is due to the fact they do not know

anything about it. I was one of the men who visited the schools last

year. I was suddenly confronted by statements made by the deans or their

assistants: “Oh, neuro-psychiatry, I don’t expect you will get much

enthusiasm from any of the schools on that subject, because that is a

post-graduate subject and we don’t make any attempt to teach it during

the under-graduate years.” Any number of young men who will state a

preference for general medicine can be interested in this subject about

which they know nothing. The solution, therefore, depends upon the

commanding officers of these hospitals and upon the psychiatrists on

their staffs; depends upon their willingness to detail one or more young

men to the psychiatrists, who are interested in the subject. I don’t

believe that the problem is going to be solved in any other way because

there are not enough men outside who are willing to come into the

Government service, who are interested.

DR. MILLER: We have a specialist at Oteen who lectures to our entire medical

staff Tuesday and Friday of each week. They are very much interested in

it and we think it is a very great benefit to the institution and the

patients.

COL. EVANS: What are you going to do with the group the doctor describes

that ought to be in a colony? What are you going to do with the mentally

deficient who will never be able to carry on? There is no appropriation

available for that group. If the Soldiers’ Homes are not properly

supplied with means or some other special effort made, every community

will have these individuals as a reproach upon them, and it occurs to me

there is no group of men that would be as able as this group to have the

propaganda go forward that there is a problem to be solved in these

cases.

DR. WHITE: I had this in mind about some of these difficult problems, some

of these border-line cases I didn’t have a chance to speak of the other

morning. I suggested there in just a word that in connection with these

disciplinary measured such as have recently been promulgated in this

order we got this morning, No. 27–A, probably we shall have to come to

some form of disciplinary treatment with a considerable group of these

border-line cases, and the plea I wanted to make was that discipline

should not be used as discipline per se, but that we should seek for all

of the possibilities that are incorporated in disciplinary measures

which can be brought to bear upon the patient for his welfare; In other

words, if we can make out of discipline a therapeutic tool.

Now we are dealing for the most part, in these border-line cases and in

the delinquent group, with types of individuals that are more or less

defective. Almost all of them are defective in some sort of way, not

necessarily intellectually defective but frequently on the affective

side; but there undoubtedly has to be some kind of disciplinary pressure

brought to bear.

I have in mind a fellow who is a high-grade defective, who has passed

through a praecox attack, who has come back to comparative normality. He

is a reasonably useful citizen around the institution but he can’t get

on outside the institution and he has periods of not getting on well in

the institution, because every once in a while he will go out and get

drunk. Now what are you going to do with that sort of fellow? Such an

individual does not always stand discipline very well. A doctor came to

me and talked to me about him the other day and wanted to know what

should we do with this fellow. I said, “Shut him up; take his privileges

away from him and watch him very carefully, because I don’t believe he

will stand shutting up very well. When you have made the maximum

impression upon him from that discipline, let him cut.” You have

constantly to shift between severity and almost lack of discipline with

these people to keep them at their level, and you have to realize all

the time it is a matter of very fine adjustment and that after all you

can very easily do them a great deal of harm. Therefore I am always more

or less disturbed by the constant effort that is being made in bodies

like this to standardize all kinds of rules and regulations, because I

realize that in this class of cases particularly there are individual

problems and they must be left for the individual judgment of the

physician who has charge of them.

I have, for example, a clerk in the office, a man who is probably sixty

odd years of age. When he is sober he is as efficient a clerk as we have

in our office, but he persistently gets drunk and stays drunk for days

at a time. Now the easiest thing on earth is to discharge that man. What

is going to become of him? He can’t take care of himself. He has a

family dependent upon him. That would mean to pauperize him and make him

a public charge. I developed some time ago a method of dealing with him.

I penalized him every time he got drunk by taking away a certain amount

of his pay. It was hard punishment. He does not get much pay. The result

was I pushed him to the limit, because it cost him too much to drink.

The result was he had longer periods of sobriety than he ever had

before, but he did break down once in a while, and when he did we had to

forgive him.

Now we have to deal with that sort of problem among our employees and

patients, and we are put to it constantly to devise out of our ingenuity

how best to meet it; and one of the agencies at our command is the

disciplinary measure, which, if wisely enforced, can be used to push the

patient to the highest possibility of his adjustment.

Then, in that connection, as to our friends, the morons and epileptics.

I am fond of saying that practically everybody, no matter how defective

he may be, has a certain capacity for usefulness. There is almost nobody

who is, under proper arrangements, a total loss socially. A Moron, of

six or seven years of age, may be ten per cent efficient. He may be ten

per cent efficient under one set at social conditions, maybe fifteen per

cent efficient under another set. He may be total loss under other sets

of conditions.

Now a lot of these people, like the young fellow I spoke of a while ago,

are very useful citizens in the hospital community. They would be a

total liability outside that community. We have always had these people

in the community and we always shall have them probably. It is perhaps a

worth-while endeavor to try to get the community, through these various

social agencies, to appreciate them for certain values. One of the

medical officers of the Army was discussing with me, a while ago, this

problem in the South, in the cotton mill districts, where there is a

large number of mentally deficient people. They do not do much of

anything, except perhaps, drink whiskey, breed and make trouble. They go

into the mills and either get injured or discharged. A lot of that

material is really capable of utilization. The mental defectives, as a

whole, are fairly good natured and tractable. There were lots of mental

defectives in the Army, enlisted men, who carried on and made good

soldiers. Some young fellows went into the Army from the School of

Feeble Minded, in Massachusetts, and had excellent records. The

Superintendent there kept track of his feeble-minded boys in the Army,

and they made excellent records because they belong to that type of

individual which has a very strong leaning upon persons in authority and

will follow his officer like a Newfoundland dog his master, will obey

orders to the letter and they make most valuable persons. So this

officer suggested to me that these feeble-minded groups running around

might be assembled into industrial units. They could be worked in

factories. In order to avoid the possibility of exploiting that type of

labor they could be employed under proper social conditions and placed

under the eye of a neuro-psychiatrist; and where there was an immense

shortage of labor, perhaps factory owners would be pleased to get these

men.

In other words there is a lot of this defective material which exists in

our society today which has absolutely lost motion, which could be put

to a great deal of use if we were wise enough to do it, if public

sentiment would support us and assist. It is easy to talk of that here.

It is another thing to get public sentiment to help us. There is no

longer hospitals organization than this in the world and perhaps the

hundred hospitals represented here might do something to bring about

that public sentiment. So I am disposed to look at people not from a

strictly diagnostic point of view to look at them from the social point

of view as to the possibility of their becoming useful to a certain

degree as social units and the possibility of society metabolizing them.

Just one more word. There has been an enormous amount said the last few

years on heredity, and there is a great deal of feeling that there is a

great deal due to heredity. The study is very interesting,

scientifically very important, but the only attitude we should assume is

to practically throw out of consideration the whole question of

inheritance. If you are going to say this fellow has got a certain

disease, and you are going to conclude it is inherited, that is a

fatalistic diagnosis and the tendency of the diagnosis is to hamstring

any effort that may be made in his behalf. The only way we can find out

the percentage of salvageable material is to endeavor to make the

adjustment. If we put them down as hereditary, our inclination will be

to throw them out of the possibility of consideration. We should rather

stress the possibilities to the utmost and find some solution or partial

solution of a great many of these problems.

DR. CHRONQUEST (U.S.P.H.S.): So much has been said that I shall not go on

with the problem. I would mention the Compensation side. I have been

wondering for some time, especially among the neuroses, if by our

present system of compensation we are not tending to make crystallized

neuroses. I do not pretend to answer the question. Take, for example, a

chap who has been in the service, who has done good work, whose social

scale has not been high, whose life prior to service has been, as you

might say, from hand to mouth. He has come out of the service with a

definite, known disability acquired by service. By being hospitalized he

has been compensated justly by the Government; he has received the

treatment to which he is entitled; but during the days of his treatment

he has found that he is able to get along more easily under these

conditions than he did prior to service, and decides that one of the

best ways he can make a living is by Compensation. I do not say that

that is true with all, but it is with some of the cases.

I have wondered whether or not our present system of compensation to

that type of individual was the best, or whether the system of Canada or

England would be better. In other words, they do not put a premium on a

man to go to a hospital. If I am correct, a man gets less money when he

goes into a hospital than when he is out. It is my meagre opinion that

in that type of neurosis, he would tend to fight harder as an individual

to put himself back into a financial, gainful pursuit; and with the

advantages the Government offers him now, especially through

rehabilitation, I feel he could be put on a much better adjustment than

he was before.

Another point which has recently come to the attention of us locally is

the question of guardianship; and I am going to ask Dr. Guthrie if it is

a known fact that two men in the same hospital, with the same

disease—that one will draw his compensation without a guardian, the

other is required to have one.

DR. GUTHRIE: It was our understanding that a man who is a psychotic by

reason of service should at least have a guardian. If that is not true,

I suggest to the Hospital Committee that it is a point for

consideration, as it puts the man in the field between the devil and the

deep, blue sea.

DR. W. A. WHITE: I think the man who has a guardian has one usually because

his people have applied for such. I believe the Bureau never

relinquishes the right to control of the funds, and is not obliged to

pay the funds to the guardian. Legally the patient can be paid if he is

competent.

DR. CHRONQUEST: In looking over histories of cases that come to West Roxbury

and information received, I believe that a point that would be of help

to the service as a whole is the getting of accurate histories. We find

patients being transferred to N.P. hospitals, who have a diagnosis which

is not correct according to the past histories taken, due to the fact

that careful search has not been made in gathering the facts of the

men’s disabilities. At times it may be the fault of the examining

physician. It may be the fault of the social service department. Again,

it may be the fault of the individual, or of the family itself in trying

to protect the patient in question. I believe that those errors, which

are seen every once in a while, should be overcome; and I feel that all

of us, whether Neuro-psychiatrists or not, who have anything to do with

either neuroses or psychoses, should be extremely careful of the

histories and get them complete, detailed and accurate.

COLONEL MATTISON: (acting for General Geo. Wood) The Tuberculosis Section

has to deal with a group of patients,—the largest group that the

Veterans’ Bureau has to handle. I am sure that we have many men here who

are interested in this subject, and I hope we shall have a very free

discussion of the subject. We shall begin by having each subject opened,

and then the program will be given to general discussion. We shall ask

Dr. Stites to open the session on “The Segregation of Cases”.

SURGEON T. H. A. STITES (R) U.S.P.H.S.: This question of segregation of

Tubercular cases is one that has been vexing all of us for a long while.

To understand it at all we have got to review the history of T.B.,—from

the ancient times when T.B. was looked upon as a sort of visitation from

Heaven, and looked upon as a disgrace to the family, on down to the

period when Koch, with his great discovery, found the disease to be

infectious. During that time there came on an organized propaganda for

the control of T.B. upon the ground that any infectious disease is a

preventable disease. This propaganda, as is true of all propaganda, ran

to an extreme. It was so hard for those interested in proving that T.B.

was an infectious disease to impress it upon the public and to compel

them to accept the proposition of its infectiousness, that we went to

the extreme of leading everybody to the idea that it was a virulent

infection; that it was as contagious possibly as some of the acute

infections like scarlatina.

There were those who believed that every case should be sent to a T.B.

hospital, absolutely isolated from his family and the world in general.

Then the pendulum began to swing back, and we came to a sensible

conclusion,—that while T.B. is an infectious disease, it is only

slightly so to the adult; and if virulent at all, it is so only among

children and the adolescent. This being so, we had to change from the

separate and isolated hospital for T.B. It has been accepted that every

general hospital should receive its quota of T.B. patients, T.B. being

one of the most common forms of illness, and that in sending out

patients to a strictly T.B. hospital; they should be sent only after the

presence of the disease has been fully well proven.

The control of T.B. is after all the big problem before all of us in

T.B. work today. I have often heard it said that any benefit that comes

to the individual is necessarily more or less incidental, and that the

big object we are laboring for is the control of the disease and the

care of the general public health. Be that as it may, the problem that

faces us in the care of the veteran of the World War is the actual care

of the sick.

The question of prevention of T. B. must be dealt with, first, upon

educational grounds,—to educate the public and the individual to the

point where we can more or less limit the spread of the infection;

secondly, and perhaps more important,—by a campaign for the improved

living conditions of our people in general, especially in childhood.

As a matter of fact, when you get right down to it, T.B. is a social

disease; it is a social problem even more than it is a medical problem.

We know that when the good Lord made us, he put into us a certain amount

of quality which, for lack of a better term, we have called natural

resistance. If we can keep that natural resistance at a high

point,—build it up,—the infection, though it may strike us, will not

produce the clinical disease, T.B.

In the second place, we come to the actual treatment of the sick. This,

too, is largely a hygienic measure. Since time immemorial, those

interested in T.B. have been searching, have been praying for a specific

cure. Every now and then somebody bobs up with a story of how he is

going to cure T.B. overnight by this or that injection, treatment, etc.

In each of these cases there is a grain of fundamental truth. We have

got to put these things together; and when we get down to the final

conclusion we can not get away from the fact that the treatment of T.B.

is the building up, the bringing back to normal, and in fact if you can,

the reaction to the point beyond the normal, of that quality I spoke of,

natural resistance.

In order to accomplish this, I believe one of the most important points

lies in the word, morale; and to encourage your morale, it is wise to

get your classes classified, and to get your T.B. patients working

together in classes in sufficiently large numbers so that you get that

inspiration that comes from what my friend used to speak of as “the

psychology of the crowd.” The thing the soldiers know as the touch of

the elbow; there is a certain magic in it. It is easier to get farther

when you know that somebody besides yourself is going through the same

thing. I think we men in charge of hospitals feel that. That is one of

the inspirations that comes to me from meeting with such a crowd of my

fellows here. Away off there in the swamps of Louisiana there comes a

sort of feeling, “We are here alone; it is hopeless”. When we are all

here together exchanging experiences, there comes the inspiration, “We

are not alone”.

In your general hospitals you have T.B. beds; have them in sections by

themselves,—not because you are afraid of the spreading of the disease,

not because the T.B. patient is an outcast,—but because you can do more

successful work for the patient, not by segregation, but by classes.

In your T.B. sections, have your sub-divisions; have your places to

which you are going to send your ambulatory cases, your far advanced,

etc. Keep them far apart. Use the class system, but be sure that your

personnel is sufficient, so as not to get away from the personal touch.

Perhaps a little outline of the organization of at least two of the

hospitals with which I am familiar will illustrate my point.

The first essential thing when a patient enters a hospital is a complete

examination. Do not let that examination be routine because it is a T.B.

patient. Do not be satisfied with punching the man in the chest and

sticking your ear to his heart. Have somebody who understands

neurological conditions, test his nerve reactions; have someone to test

his mental reactions, as well as the surgical and general medical. Have

your examination ward in which this can be done.

Next is your general medical and, possibly, observation ward. I don’t

care how you try to keep observation cases out of T.B. hospitals,—they

are going to get in. If a patient, after being in a month, is found to

be a T.B. case, he is apt to say, “I caught it here”. Put him where you

can answer, “You did not get it here. You have not been in sufficiently

close contact with the disease to catch it.”

Have your surgical ward; and then your strictly T.B. section.

Have first your infirmary or hospital.

The T.B. man needs special treatment, nursing care and dietetic care.

One of the chief things to give to a T.B. infirmary is good dietetic

care;—place the food before your patient in an appetizing manner; too

much will disgust him.

Then have your ambulant section and sub-divide it into the section in

which there is clinical activity of the disease, and into the section in

which the clinical condition of the disease is quiescent. By doing this

you can give your people graduated exercises, whatever diets they may

need, periods of rest, and occupational therapy; and you can do it in an

organized, scientific way, and get away from the everlasting complaint,

“You let the fellow in the next bed do it; why won’t you let me do it?”

You have got to study the psychology of your patient. It may be a little

out of the line of segregation of cases. We have heard the talk here of

cases, of hospital management, and all that; but be sure in dealing with

the ex-service man, or any other case, that you do not treat him merely

as a case; that you do not segregate the medical officer in charge. I

find there in the South that one of my life-savers is the fact that my

office door is open to any patient. When I first got to be understood

there was a line-up. I gave an hour every day. Now, since the patients

know that everyone can come to me, I have possibly three or four in a

day. And I don’t do it either by reversing the decisions of my ward

surgeon and my executive officer; I back them up.

* * * * *

DR. KLAUTZ (N.H.D.V.S., Johnson City, Tenn.):

The subject of occupation in connection with T.B., is not only an

extremely important one but an extremely difficult one to administer,

particularly in the large government institution, and especially in

connection with the psychology of the ex-service man, which has been

referred to a number of times. He is apt to misunderstand and to be

resentful toward any application of work; and yet at the same time, if

we are going to measure the results of the sanitarium treatment of T.B.

by the functional restoration to activity and usefulness, we still find

that it results in a great many failures. That has been one of the

complaints on the part of T.B. workers not only in government but in

civil institutions as well.

We still find relapses occurring after the patient has been discharged

from the sanitarium or T.B. hospital. Men go into training, and in a

short time undergo another course of treatment, and so on. The reason

for that is that they have not been given the necessary physical

rehabilitation while still in the sanitarium, while under institutional

protection and medical supervision.

The question of occupation is so broad that it is impossible to take it

up extensively here today. We can point out one or two of the basic

principles in connection with its application in the treatment of T.B.

One very important feature brought out this morning is the

psychotherapeutic object,—the point of view of relaxation or recreation,

that is, giving the man something to occupy his mind and improve his

morale, helping him to forget his home anxieties and anxiety about

compensation.

The second point, or 2 A, deals with muscular reconstruction,—conversion

of recently acquired adipose tissue into working force by rebuilding

flabby muscular tissue which has resulted from the long period of rest.

2 A is the acquiring of a tolerance for T.B, toxins. This is important.

We do know that in the recently toxic stage, exercise or work does

produce a reaction which is shown by a rise in pulse rate. We know that

if exercise is begun in small doses and gradually increased, the time

will come when the patient can be made to take a fairly large amount of

exercise continuing over a fairly long period of time, without

manifesting the symptoms of reaction. Formerly we gave Tuberculin in

gradual doses until we reached the point where the man could take an

injection which surely would have killed him at the beginning of the

course. The main point is if a man leaves the sanitarium before he

reaches this toxin tolerance, he is more likely to break down. This is

the reason for the man’s frequently returning to the sanitarium for

treatment.

The third point deals with applying occupation as a means of training or

retraining the man for some new occupation or modification of his former

occupation; and here is where a great deal of judgment and study of the

individual case becomes necessary. It is very difficult to find out just

what is the best kind of work for the man from a physical and mental

point of view; but the important thing is to have the man try it out and

test it, and begin this physical reconstruction and rehabilitation if we

are to get permanent results from sanitarium treatment. I don’t believe

we have solved the problem completely, and I believe other agencies will

have to be called in.

In this connection the question of dispensary work and social and

nursing follow-up work is going to be extremely important. The man who

leaves an institution ought to be followed up very carefully, and effort

should be made to bring him back to some medical unit for re-examination

at least every two months in order to see if there is any relapse of the

former activity.

SENIOR SURGEON R. H. STANLEY, USPHS (R): It is always interesting of course,

to be told what we ought to do and how to do it, but it seems to me it

would be a great deal more interesting to take the little time we have

this afternoon and discuss some of our real problems, and I mean by that

problems that we as commanding officers of the hospitals have to contend

with every day. I know and you know there are thousands of little things

come up upon which we would like to have advice. There are many problems

I might be able to solve readily; there are others you would be able to

solve. I believe it would be worth more to tell how to get rid of some

of these problems.

I believe that the success of running a hospital rests entirely upon the

confidence that your patients have in you. If you are sincere they know

it, and when they know that they will do anything for you. If you are

not sincere they are going to know it mighty quick and you are going to

have trouble. If you tell the men you are with them, that you are going

to be 50–50 with them, if you call them in and talk to them as you would

to a son, and if you let them see you are not doing it because of a

matter of necessity, you can get by without writing petitions into

Washington.

I found the other day a petition had gone to Washington from my

hospital. It was necessary to discharge two men for drinking. It was

their first offense. They came to me and said, “You have not treated us

fair because it is our first offense.” Just before I left my station I

received a letter which was addressed to these men by Colonel Forbes. In

that letter he said “I have received your petition signed by 27 patients

and asking that the hospital be investigated on account of a few

patients being discharged for drinking. I wish to state for your benefit

that I have given the matter consideration and I am standing right

behind the medical officer in charge.” Leaving out the names, I had

copies made of those letters and placed one of them on the bulletin

board of the hospital.

When I went out to Whipple Barracks there had been some little

disturbance there among the men. They were dissatisfied in various ways

and it seemed like a big problem how to handle these men. When I once

had their confidence I handled them.

I have found this in my experience, that I have never been able to have

a satisfied personnel unless I give them the best I can. So long as you

feed them well you will not have much trouble, because that will keep up

the morale better than any other one thing I know. If you will feed

them, be honest with them, be fair, you will have very little trouble in

running the hospital.

SURGEON J. F. WALLACE, USPHS (R): The subject of entertainment probably

would cover the subject of recreation at hospitals. It is rather hard

for me to describe what recreation should be given at a tuberculous

hospital because it depends on the location of the hospital. At the

hospital at Fort Stanton where I am located we do not have any

entertainment. If any social workers come down there I will be glad to

entertain them, because we have only three visitors a year down there.

That is one of the things in which I would compare our institution with

some of these other institutions.

For many years I have been connected with a large sanitorium where we

had strict discipline and little entertainment. The patients were

satisfied. Our average stay of patients is six months. In looking over

your sanitoriums you don’t find many patients staying six months.

When I was in the Army I was in one of the largest t.b. sanitoriums of

the country. They sent back hundreds of men to this hospital and people

came out and entertained them. They were entertained every night by the

Red Cross with moving pictures, they were entertained in the afternoons

by a local organization; they were entertained to death. These men

afterwards got out and were not satisfied unless they were placed in an

institution which was a social center. After I went out I was Chief of

the Eleventh t. b. district of Denver. I noticed that the men who were

treated at Fort Lyon were a better class to handle because they were not

so much entertained. Once in a while I would talk to some of these men

and ask them if they wanted to get well, as I could tell them a place to

go and frequently I used to send them to Fort Stanton where they could

not be entertained and they could get well.

If you have ever lived in an isolated place, you can appreciate it. My

wife and I had pioneered this sanitorium together for quite a while.

Once in a while we used to go to Denver and we could enjoy any show they

had in Denver, even the 10–cent and 20–cent ones. I have heard men

criticize entertainments at Fitzsimmons; they would swear and walk out

while Madame Schumann-Heinck was singing, because they were

dissatisfied; they were saturated with entertainment. I am against

entertainment for tuberculous patients only in a very mild degree. We

have one picture show a week and they enjoy that picture show. We have

only Sunday School Sunday morning. The minister will bring in a few

amateur singers and the boys think they are wonderful; they are

wonderful; and they will all sing.

I have some fifty War Risk patients at my Sanitorium. I have known them

for three years. I know them all by name. They were kicked out from

Sanitorium to Sanitorium. They came down to Stanton. I went there on the

first of July and no man has asked for his transfer or discharge. I

suppose there is less turn-over of t.b. patients at any place than at

Fort Stanton, where there is no entertainment. These men can go

anywhere. We have a 30,000 or 40,000 acre farm. We try to get these men

interested in the different things in the Sanitorium. On Christmas we

let the men arrange the Christmas trees. They amuse themselves down

there. The men trap quite a number of wild animals, bob cats, etc. and

they are interested in the place we have, which is close to nature. You

would be surprised how little amusement you need for entertainment if

you get away from it. You have got to control these men and direct them

every minute in the day. You have got to give them a task. Have their

hours for rest; their hours for exercise. It is up to you who are

running Sanitoriums to entertain your men. You might lecture to them;

that is entertainment; but don’t have them twice a week or three times a

week. Once in a great while the men are interested in the study of their

disease. Don’t speak to them in scientific terms, let them understand

the disease. They say in the curing of tuberculosis it depends more upon

what a man has from his neck up than what he has from the neck down.

Impress upon them that they have got to live a careful life. Keep people

out who want to entertain them. Your men will be just as well and better

satisfied with little entertainment if you keep them busy all day long.

DR. SMITH, U.S.P.H.S.: I wanted to discuss this afternoon a matter which is

of great concern to all branches of the service, and that is Order 59 as

applied to transfers from hospital to hospital. Order 59 is going to be

watched rather carefully by the Veterans’ Bureau. Order 59 lists

hospitals and gives a certain number of hospitals to each district. A

district manager in New York may take a tuberculous patient and send him

to a local hospital or he may send him away to a certain designated

hospital to which he has blanket authority to send him, Oteen or

Fitzsimmons; but according to Order 59, once they send a man to a local

hospital, the district manager may not remove the man from that hospital

and send the man to Fitzsimmons Hospital in Denver. In other words, it

is worth watching to see whether Order 59 will not rather tempt the

district managers to make a snap diagnosis on the ground and send away

to the hospital to which he has blanket authorization to make transfers,

on the one hand, a man whose disease is so far advanced, that it might

be unwise to send him; or, on the other hand, men with questionable

diagnosis. It will be worth watching. I am sure the Veterans’ Bureau

will desire information on the subject as to whether you who are out in

the tuberculous hospitals will receive classes of patients who are

unsuitable in the usual sense of the word for transfer.

Here is another thing we shall all need to watch and concerning which

the Veterans’ Bureau will I know desire information. Will the practice

of sending patients to the local general hospitals result in a piling up

of patients who need to be transferred and whose transfers will be

delayed. We all know that a transfer is indicated not only for the

purpose of providing a climatic change and we all know that in certain

sections of the country there are provided beds for tuberculous patients

and it is necessary to keep these beds filled.

According to the present practice and strict interpretation of order 59,

if the medical officer in charge of the Naval Hospital in New York has a

tuberculous patient and wants to effect his discharge to Fitzsimmons, he

first asks the district manager for permission to transfer the patient.

The district manager in turn asks the Director of the Veterans’ Bureau;

the Director of the Veterans’ Bureau advises the district manager, who

in turn advises the officer in charge of the Navy Hospital. Now it will

be necessary to watch and see whether this effects an undesirable delay

in making the transfers. The Veterans’ Bureau will desire to be informed

if such is the case.

There is another thing. A patient under treatment at Fort Bayard, New

Mexico, and fit for discharge cannot, according to a strict

interpretation of Order 59 be discharged without invoking the same

authorities who sent him there. In other words, he must take it up with

the district manager, who then advises the man in charge of the

hospital.

Order 59 is magnificent in this, if it works out: that no man will be

transferred from one hospital to another except upon the recommendation

of the medical officer in charge, and you who have had experience in

this matter will know what that means. It means that it is not the man

with the longest and strongest pull who will be transferred but the man

whose transfer is recommended by the officer in charge of the hospital.

We are prepared to assist in every possible way in carrying out that

order but it is necessary for us to watch the effect from the field and

get advices from all hospitals concerned, as to whether this order will

not need modification.

SURGEON F. H. MCKEON, USPHS: Some have stated that they were in ignorance of

the existence of G. O. 27. At Hospital # 64, upon the receipt of that

order we immediately had about one hundred copies made and the entire

hospital personnel was supplied therewith. After that every man upon

admission was furnished with a copy, together with a copy of the rules

of the hospital, for which he signed a receipt. I offer that as a

suggestion.

On Tuesday the statement was made here that a man who is able to take

five or six hours prevocational training at a hospital has no place in a

hospital and should be in training. I think that statement should be

qualified somewhat. It may easily happen that a man who can safely take

five or six hours prevocational training in a hospital would soon break

down under vocational training, for the reason that while he is in

hospital his entire life is supervised; he must take a rest hour; he

must turn in at a given time at night; he is assured of three or

possibly more proper meals a day. Those conditions do not obtain when

that man becomes a trainee and I sincerely hope that the follow-up

nursing system which the Veterans’ Bureau is putting into effect now

will result in a more careful supervision of the trainee’s life, so that

when it is found he is living not wisely but too well he may be given

proper advice and be returned to the hospital before the breakdown

occurs.

This afternoon the subject of hospitalizing the tuberculous veteran in

n. p. hospitals was discussed. I rather think it a somewhat sweeping

assertion to say that every tuberculous individual with mental symptoms

should be hospitalized in a t. b. sanitorium. We will all grant that men

with signs and symptoms of an active tuberculosis disease should be

hospitalized in an institution for the treatment of tuberculous. But to

my mind that does not hold where the disability is clearly a mental

disorder; that man is ambulant. The other man gives no trouble whatever

because he is bed-ridden. I have no doubt that every t. b. hospital

commander here today has had such cases. Your ambulant case, with few if

any indications of active tuberculosis but who notwithstanding is

tubercular, when he develops mental symptoms is not only a source of

annoyance in the tuberculosis hospital but is destructive of morale. His

place is clearly in a hospital for the treatment of mental cases.

DR. M. C. GUTHRIE, U. S. VETERANS’ BUREAU: This matter affects us

administratively from a different angle. Many of the general hospitals

have wards for the cure of tuberculosis. We presume that the turn-over

must be fairly rapid. When men have accumulated in sufficient number and

their disposition is determined as to whether they should go to a

tuberculous institution, and they refuse to go, shall we turn them out

or shall we let them stay?

SURGEON L. M. WILBUR, USPHS: If the transfer is suggested in the interest of

the physical welfare of the patient and he refuses to accept that

transfer, he is interfering with treatment. The regulations provide for

that.

SENIOR SURGEON T. R. PAYNE, USPHS: I don’t agree with some of the t. b. men.

I think a man can make a fight if he is dissatisfied and does not want

to go and I think you will do harm in transferring him. If a man is

home-sick and will not improve, I think he will do very much better to

stay just where he is and you ought not force that man to go somewhere

where he will not be satisfied. A sanatorium is a school to teach men

how to live. In a general hospital you will have trouble in enforcing a

rest hour because there are a great many other men in the institution

who are not compelled to do so. The pass privilege is another thing.

Some patients have but one pass a week and other patients get passes

frequently. It serves to dissatisfy the t. b. men as they felt they were

not on an equal footing. That is the only objection I can see.

SENIOR SURGEON J. E. DEDMAN, USPHS (R): There are several things that occur

to me. In the first place there is the question of food. Of course that

is the vital thing in every hospital. In our hospital, as I said before,

we have a large number of negroes and what you give to the white boys in

the north is not satisfactory to the colored patient. I think it is an

important thing to try to give the men what they want in the way of

food.

When I went to Greenville it was the custom to give the men breakfast at

about seven o’clock; luncheon at 10:30; noon meal at 12 o’clock; at noon

the men were not hungry and were generally dissatisfied with the food;

at 3 o’clock, after the rest hour, they would have another nourishment;

supper was served at five o’clock and as a rule they did not care much

for that. Then we would send over to the wards large quantities of milk

and eggs and bread and butter. They did not need any base balls. They

played ball with apples.

It occurred to me that that was a bad system. We omitted the morning

nourishment and the afternoon nourishment and I substituted an evening

cafeteria luncheon thinking that it was a long gap from the supper at

five o’clock to breakfast at 7. We thereby saved a great deal of money

and since we did that we find the patients think the food is fine. We

also find that they sleep better by taking this light luncheon just

before they retire. I mention that for what it is worth.

The rest hour is important in tuberculosis. That is why hospitalization

is so essential, because men will not take proper rest. We have a

morning rest from 9 to 10, afternoon rest from 1 to 3 and evening rest

from 6 to 6:45. The last period is not universal, and we wonder how you

can get an accurate record of a man’s condition when you do not get his

evening temperature. We find that it has been a great help to us. When I

instituted this rest period from 6 to 6:45 I told the men it was for

their good and although they objected at first, it appealed to their

reason, after they were told why it was done, and we have had no

trouble.

Another thing we have inaugurated along this line. I talked with Dr.

Smith last spring. He agreed to send to our hospital a school for

chiefs. I think this was a most helpful thing, because we had chiefs of

medical staffs come to us and take a course that would tend to make for

uniformity in administrative medical work in our tuberculous hospitals.

I have talked since that time with several of the men who came down to

take that course and I believe every one of them expressed the opinion

that it was very helpful to him to have an opportunity to exchange ideas

and to have the same methods for carrying of medical staff work which

required tact and executive ability.

There is one thing I could not pass by because it is of such great

importance to the Federal Employees Compensation Commission. We have

sometimes employees engaged along various lines, and shortly after I

arrived at the station I found one or two who said they had

tuberculosis. I think it is most essential to see that not only one man

but a board of medical officers examine every employee when he comes

into a tuberculous hospital to make sure that he does not show activity

in tuberculosis so that later he will not have a claim against the

Federal Employees Compensation Commission by saying that he was working

in a tuberculosis hospital and contracted tuberculosis while in the

hospital.

There are many things I would like to speak of. I was very much

impressed with what the doctor said about entertainment. I believe it

helps the morale and is the most wonderful thing in the world. We can

spend sleepless nights building up morale in a hospital and one man can

disturb the entire morale.

In closing I want to say, after all is said and done, the big thing with

us is the backing we get from the heads of our department and from the

Surgeon General. I have known times I felt like throwing up the sponge.

All of us have gone through these moments. The main and only thing that

keeps us up is the encouragement we get from the heads of the department

and I want to take this opportunity to express my appreciation.

GEN. SAWYER: This meeting was called for the week of the 20th, with the

understanding of the Budget Director, General Dawes, that on tomorrow

the Chiefs of the various Departments of the Government were to hold

their semi-annual session and we thought that you would enjoy that

occasion. It has been found impossible in the compilation of the facts

and figures necessary to hold that meeting tomorrow. Therefore it

becomes necessary for us to change our program and I am happy to

announce to you that I feel sure you will have quite as interesting a

program as you would have otherwise, for tomorrow we will have as the

first speaker of the morning, Congressman Madden, the head of the

Appropriations Committee. If you have not heard him I am sure you will

be very much interested both in what he has to say and in the way he

says it. We are then to have as the next speaker of the morning, General

Dawes. General Dawes is remaining over tomorrow that he may have the

pleasure of meeting you personally, and I predict that you will agree,

after you have heard General Dawes, that if you have had no other excuse

or no other compensation in coming to this meeting, you will have it in

hearing General Dawes. For the balance of the program of tomorrow

forenoon, it comes to my mind that possibly it would be most interesting

to you all if we were to take up some of the questions that come to your

mind that have not been presented in this program. This was suggested to

me by one of the gentlemen here who I noticed does not talk much but who

evidently thinks a lot, that it would be to the interest of a good many

if they might bring up some subject that they are particularly

interested in. So we are going to have in the morning a question box,

and if any of you have questions in which you are particularly

interested and will present them at the desk of the Secretary, we shall

try to have them taken up for discussion at this round-table hour

tomorrow forenoon.

President Harding will not be here in the morning. When I spoke to

President Harding to come over and address this meeting, he said to me,

“General, you know Mrs. Harding and I are to receive this body tomorrow

evening.” I am sure that you are going to have in that reception, in the

personal contact with the President and Mrs. Harding, a joy such as you

have not contemplated.

_Seventh Session_ Friday, January 20, 1922.

GENERAL SAWYER: Fellows of the conference, as I told you yesterday we had

expected this morning to be here with the Chiefs of the Bureaus. I

explained to you why that program was changed. I told you also that you

would not be disappointed in today’s program, and now I am going to

prove it.

America produces many things. It is wonderful in agriculture, in

industry, in commerce, but one of the greatest products of America is

its men, and, strange as it may seem if you will stop to study it from

that aspect, you will find that each State of the Union has its record

for producing certain kinds of men. For instance, from Wyoming we get

our stock men; from Iowa, our farmers; from Indiana, our authors,

particularly our fiction writers; from Ohio, of course, we get our

presidents; from Illinois, a thousand miles from Wall Street, we get the

greatest of financiers. It is true that Illinois has produced more

financiers than any other State, and men who have been at the head of

the greatest banking institutions of the United States have come from

this great corn-raising, middle-western State.

I should like to remind you, before I introduce this speaker, that this

Federal Board of Hospitalization represented last year an expenditure,

in all of their various lines of work, of $750,000,000.00. We have in

our employ this morning something like 42,000 individuals, for which it

is costing us something like $42,000,000. Today we are providing 132,000

meals for the people in the government hospitals and the employees that

are necessary to take care of them. Tonight, if this northern blizzard

continues, it will require 132,000 blankets to cover them; and in the

most economical way in which we can provide for the needs of these sick

men it will cost us—it does cost us—in round numbers, a hundred thousand

dollars each day, with institutions operated as economically as they can

be.

I only relate this that all of you may know and may carry this message

to the country—that Uncle Sam is certainly not stingy; that Uncle Sam is

really putting forth every energy he possibly can to carry out the idea

of the best treatment of the World War Veteran.

This is my story in brief.

I have pleasure now in introducing to you Congressman Madden, Chairman

of the Appropriations Committee of the House.

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