Mr. WHEELER. Will the witness state his name, please?
Mr. JOHNSTON. Harold Johnston.
Mr. WHEELER. Are you represented by counsel? Will counsel
identify himself for the record?
Mr. SYKES. Jay G. Sykes, Seattle.
Mr. WHEELER. When and where were you born, Mr. Johnston?
Mr. JOHNSTON. 1907, Yakima, Wash.
Mr. WHEELER. And what is your educational background?
Mr. JOHNSTON. Very little, less than grammar; didn’t finish
grammar school.
Mr. WHEELER. How long have you lived in the Seattle district?
Mr. JOHNSTON. By Seattle district you mean King County?
Mr. WHEELER. Yes; or the periphery.
Mr. JOHNSTON. I don’t live in Seattle.
Mr. WHEELER. I understand that.
Mr. JOHNSTON. I have been there 15 years.
Mr. WHEELER. What is your employment record?
Mr. JOHNSTON. For the last 10 years it’s been machinist.
Mr. WHEELER. And prior to that?
Mr. JOHNSTON. Oh, odd jobs.
Mr. WHEELER. Are you presently employed?
Mr. JOHNSTON. Yes, I am.
Mr. WHEELER. Where are you presently employed?
Mr. JOHNSTON. Mr. Chairman, the subpena was served on me.
First, they went to my home and my wife told them where I worked. And
they went to the shop and were very courteous and called up my foreman,
and I went out and they served me. And I am sure the committee has
a record. And I don’t feel that it would do myself any good or the
company to make it a part of the official record as to where I work.
And I would like to not answer this question on that basis.
Mr. MOULDER. Do you decline to answer the question?
Mr. JOHNSTON. No. I definitely--I would like to be excused
from answering it. I am not taking a position that I--but inasmuch as
the deputy sheriff served me on the job, very courteous about it--met
me at the gate and did not come in; told me he would be there--and I
went out and looked him up--the committee knows where I work and I
don’t feel it should become a record here of the company I work for.
Mr. MOULDER. Do you mean that answering the question as to
where you are employed would reflect unfavorably upon the company which
employs you?
Mr. JOHNSTON. It is possible with publicity in the paper. No
use to bring unnecessary publicity on it. I feel that the committee
should take that into consideration. They know where I work. Their man
served a subpena on me. I would not like to answer that question.
Mr. VELDE. Mr. Chairman, I feel I must insist that the witness
answer the question as to where he is employed.
Throughout the history of this committee every witness who has appeared
before the committee has been required to give his place of residence
and his place of employment, or take refuge under the fifth amendment.
It would be grossly unfair to all the witnesses who have previously
appeared before this committee to allow you to escape answering that
question.
Mr. JOHNSTON. Inasmuch as you already know----But I will
answer then if you insist that I answer. I work at Lake Union Shipyards
as of today--I don’t know about tomorrow.
Mr. WHEELER. What type of work do you do for the Lake Union
Shipyards?
Mr. JOHNSTON. Machinist.
Mr. WHEELER. Is that company engaged upon classified matters,
security work for the United States Government?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. JOHNSTON. Well, we do a lot of fishing boat work. We do
work on all types of ships. It is a small yard. So it is small boats we
have there. We don’t have large ones like other yards do. It is mostly
small boats. There is some Government work there, naturally.
Mr. WHEELER. Do you have a security clearance?
Mr. JOHNSTON. No, I do not.
Mr. WHEELER. Have you ever requested one?
Mr. JOHNSTON. No, I haven’t.
Mr. WHEELER. Have you ever been denied one?
Mr. JOHNSTON. No, I haven’t.
Mr. WHEELER. Are you acquainted with Mrs. Barbara Hartle?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. JOHNSTON. Because the answer is liable to have a tendency
to incriminate me, at this time I invoke the fifth amendment and
decline to answer that question.
Mr. MOULDER. In future replies along that line, do I
understand you decline to answer on the grounds of the fifth amendment
for the reason that your answers might tend to incriminate you?
Mr. JOHNSTON. That is right, sir.
Mr. WHEELER. Being a machinist, are you a member of any union?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. JOHNSTON. Well, I will have to decline on the same reason,
of the fifth amendment.
Mr. VELDE. I suggest that the Chair instruct the witness to
answer the question.
Mr. MOULDER. The Chair directs you to answer the question.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. JOHNSTON. I respectfully decline to answer that on the
grounds that it will tend to incriminate me, and ask the privilege.
Mr. WHEELER. Are you a member of the International Association
of Machinists, A. F. of L.?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. JOHNSTON. For the same reason, again I invoke the fifth
amendment.
Mr. MOULDER. You are directed to answer the question. I think
it is a very unfair reflection upon that union, a legitimate, highly
respected labor organization, and you should answer that question.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. JOHNSTON. There is a very particular problem on that in
my case, and for that reason I don’t want to waive any rights under
the fifth amendment. So I respectfully again have to invoke the fifth
amendment.
Mr. MOULDER. Proceed.
Mr. WHEELER. Have you held any position in any union?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. JOHNSTON. The same--the fifth amendment. I will have to
invoke the fifth amendment again on that question.
Mr. WHEELER. Is it not a fact that you at one time were
business agent for the International Association of Machinists, A. F.
of L.?
Mr. JOHNSTON. Again I will have to invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. WHEELER. To refer to the testimony of Barbara Hartle, page
6094, part 2 of the hearings held in June 1954:
The business agent for several years of the machinists union
during this time was Harold Johnston, who was a member also of the
district committee of the Communist Party of which I was a member.
Was Mrs. Hartle correct in making that statement?
Mr. JOHNSTON. I will have to again invoke the fifth amendment
in that it is liable to incriminate me.
Mr. WHEELER. Were you ever at any time a member of the
district committee of the Communist Party of King County?
Mr. JOHNSTON. I will again have to invoke the fifth amendment
on the grounds it will possibly incriminate me.
Mr. WHEELER. Were you a member of the district committee
of the Communist Party of King County while business agent for the
machinists union?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. JOHNSTON. I will again have to invoke the fifth amendment
on the ground possibly to incriminate me.
Mr. WHEELER. Is it not a fact that there was a group of
machinists of 8 or 10 who were members of the Communist Party within
that union?
Mr. JOHNSTON. Again will I have to invoke the fifth amendment
for the same reason.
Mr. MOULDER. Let me understand that question, Mr. Wheeler.
Mr. WHEELER. I will repeat it.
Is it not a fact that there was a branch or cell of the Communist Party
within the machinists union of which you were a member?
Mr. MOULDER. Can you specify the date?
Mr. WHEELER. The date, sir, runs during the war years and
before, a continuing date.
Mr. MOULDER. Do you have any knowledge or information
concerning the question propounded to you by Mr. Wheeler?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. JOHNSTON. I didn’t get that complete. I am a little bit
hard of hearing. Would you read it over again?
Mr. MOULDER. My question is, Do you have any knowledge or
information concerning a Communist cell in the machinists union?
Mr. JOHNSTON. On the question of knowledge, it is liable to
incriminate me. So again I have to invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. WHEELER. Mr. Johnston, do you believe the Communist Party
has a place in organized labor?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. JOHNSTON. Well, I couldn’t answer that yes or no. I am no
expert. You have experts here, and I am not one. I am sorry I couldn’t
give you an intelligent answer on that.
Mr. MOULDER. You can express your approval or disapproval
of it. That is, in the form of the question you could express your
approval or disapproval of it.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. JOHNSTON. I just can’t; I can’t formulate any answer for
that one way or the other. So I just couldn’t answer that question one
way or the other. I can’t understand what exactly, what kind of an
answer would have to be on that. I am not clear. My education is very
little.
Mr. MOULDER. Do you mean to say you haven’t made up your mind
about it?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. JOHNSTON. I have never thought about it before.
Mr. MOULDER. Well, give it some thought now and answer the
question as to whether or not you approve or disapprove of Communist
Party domination of a labor union.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. JOHNSTON. On that one I will give it some thought, and
before the committee leaves town I will give you a statement of my
thinking on that.
Mr. MOULDER. All right; we will keep you under subpena and
give you an opportunity to think that out and answer that question some
time before we adjourn.
Proceed with the next question.
Mr. WHEELER. Are you a member of the Communist Party today?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. JOHNSTON. I will again, as in the past, have to invoke the
fifth amendment for the same reason. The answer will incriminate me.
Mr. WHEELER. Mr. Chairman, I have no further questions.
Mr. VELDE. I have no questions.
Mr. MOULDER. The witness is not excused.
You will be kept under subpena. You may attend the hearings and give
the thought you said you would give to answering the question. When you
are ready, notify Mr. Wheeler, and we will recall you to the stand.
Mr. Counsel, proceed with the next witness.
Mr. WHEELER. John Lawrie, Jr.
Mr. MOULDER. Do you solemnly swear the testimony which you are
about to give before this committee will be the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. LAWRIE. I do.
I also want to say that I am here under protest and that all answers I
give will be--I will invoke the first and fifth amendment.
Mr. MOULDER. You haven’t been asked any questions yet.
Proceed, Mr. Wheeler.
Mr. LAWRIE. I also have a written statement I would like to
read before this committee.
Mr. MOULDER. We will file the statement. Hand it to Mr.
Wheeler.