UNITED STATES, _February_ 28, 1797.
On motion,
"_Resolved_, That to-morrow be assigned for the
reconsideration of the said bill, in the mode prescribed by
the Constitution of the United States."
The question to concur was put and carried--40 to 37.
WEDNESDAY, March 1.
_Military Establishment._
Mr. GALLATIN wished the bill for fixing the Military Establishment,
which had been returned by the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, with his
objections, to be taken up.
Mr. W. SMITH hoped this subject would be taken up, but before it was
entered upon, he wished the Committee of the Whole to be discharged from
the consideration of it, as he found, in a former instance of a similar
kind, the business had been settled in the House. The committee was
accordingly discharged. The House then proceeded to reconsider the bill,
agreeably to the direction of the constitution. The bill was first read,
and then the objections of the PRESIDENT.
The SPEAKER then read the clause in the constitution which directs the
proceedings on such an occasion, and which says, that in case two-thirds
of the House wherein it originated shall be in favor of passing the
bill, it shall be sent to the other, and if two-thirds of that House be
also in favor of it, it shall become a law. The votes of both Houses to
be determined by yeas and nays.
Mr. NICHOLAS said, he meant to vote against the bill, but he did not
wish to stand charged with refusing to pay the men for the time they
were in service. He thought this bill was by no means liable to a charge
of this kind; as it could scarcely be supposed that, at the time they
were making a voluntary gift of $100 to every officer discharged, the
Legislature meant to defraud the men of their pay.
Mr. W. SMITH did not see any necessity for the observations of the
gentleman from Virginia. There was nothing in the Message of the
PRESIDENT which charged that House with an intention to defraud the men
of their pay. Whatever was the design of gentlemen, this was not the
charge. But certain it was that this would be the result of the bill,
and it would be six weeks or two months before they could be notified
that the act was passed. It was the legal opinion of the Attorney
General, therefore, that they would not be entitled to pay during that
time.
Mr. NICHOLAS was sorry that the gentleman from South Carolina and he did
not think alike on the subject; he thought the objections he had made
were necessary, and he had made them for the purpose stated. He thought
the PRESIDENT ought not to have doubted their willingness to have
allowed the pay in question. He was of opinion the House had given some
extraordinary proofs of their liberality this session; amongst other
proofs of this, they had determined to appropriate money for the
building of a thirty-six gun frigate, which he had caused to be built
without authority. But the pay of these men was so much a point of law,
that he believed the men would have been entitled to pay.
Mr. W. SMITH said, their having agreed to give each of the officers
$100, without mentioning the men, rather went against the gentleman's
conclusion; because, if any thing had been intended to have been given
to them, they would also have been mentioned.
Mr. WILLIAMS was sorry that some things had not been more attended to,
when that bill was under consideration; and, although there would be a
difficulty respecting the Brigadier General and Staff, yet he thought
the objections well founded, and would vote against the passing of the
bill, in order that a new one might be brought in to avoid the
objections, from the demands lately made for the protection of the
frontiers of Georgia and Tennessee, which amounted to upwards of
$300,000; he fully agreed with the PRESIDENT that it would be less
expense to keep up the two companies of dragoons than to employ militia
horse.
The yeas and nays were then taken, and stood 55 to 26.
The bill being accordingly lost, Mr. NICHOLAS moved that a committee be
appointed to bring in a new bill, which being agreed to, a new bill was
reported (exactly the same as the former, except an omission of the
parts objected to by the PRESIDENT.) It was ordered to be engrossed for
a third reading, and afterwards passed.
_Case of Hanging Maw._
Mr. BLOUNT called for the order of the day on the report of the
Committee of Claims on the petition of the widow of the late
Scollacuttaw, or Hanging Maw. The House accordingly went into a
committee thereon, when the report was read, as follows:
"That the complaints against the conduct of one John Beard,
and a number of armed men, who, she states, in the year one
thousand seven hundred and ninety-three, contrary to law
and the good faith of Government, attacked the
dwelling-house of the petitioner and husband, killed and
wounded a number of well-disposed Indians; burnt, and
destroyed, and carried away their property, and wounded the
petitioner. She now prays that some provision may be made
for her.
"After examining the statement made by the petitioner, and
the facts upon which she rests her present application, the
committee have found some difficulty in deciding what
measures would be most advisable for the House to adopt.
"Previous to the attack on the Hanging Maw, the frontier
settlers of Tennessee and the Indians in that quarter had
been guilty of mutual acts of aggression and hostility. A
party of the Indians had killed some settlers; their trail
was discovered, conducting across the Tennessee--this
circumstance induced a belief in their pursuers that the
Hanging Maw had been concerned in that business, and
occasioned his being wounded, and the misfortunes
complained of by his widow. The general opinion, however,
represents the Hanging Maw as having been uniformly
friendly to the settlers; as vigilant to apprise them of
the approach of banditti; and constant in his exertions, on
all occasions, to compose difficulties between them and his
nation; and, withal, as possessing considerable influence
over the Indians. The same disposition is also attributed
to his widow, the present petitioner; who, instead of
exciting her people to acts of retaliation, has abated
nothing in her friendship to the white people.
"All these circumstances seem to countenance, if not to
require for her a pension from the Government, or some
other relief from the Legislature. Such a provision might
also be considered as extending its influence beyond the
particular object; or, as an inciting cause to other
Indians to pursue a similar line of conduct, under
circumstances alike cruel and distressing, should they
happen.
"But, on the other hand, it is to be considered that there
are citizens on the frontiers who have suffered injuries as
cruel, and deprivations as severe by the Indians; and who
have been thereby left in situations of distress that would
equally call for assistance from the Legislature. Questions
arise whether both descriptions of sufferers ought not to
be provided for? Whether the abilities of Government would
be competent to meet all possible claims of this nature?
And whether help can be extended by law to the one, and
consistently refused to the other?
"It may be said that those who settle on the frontiers
voluntarily assume all the risks and dangers attached to
that position; and, therefore can have no just claim upon
the Government for consequences resulting from their
choice; whilst, on the contrary, policy requires that the
minds of the Indians, who may be roused to hostility by
acts of the settlers, should be quieted by small pecuniary
interpositions.
"Under these views of the subject, the committee have
hesitated what report to make; but, upon the whole, as the
authority vested in the Executive Department is competent
to meet this claim; and should the petitioner, from her
sufferings and her attachment to the United States, appear
to the Executive to be entitled to any annual relief, as it
may be afforded out of the appropriations for contingent
expenses in the Indian Department, without any interference
of the Legislature, and as this mode will probably involve
the fewest difficulties, the committee think she should
apply to that department; and that the prayer of her
petition ought not to be granted."[12]
The committee reported their agreement with the resolution reported from
the Committee of Claims.
The question was taken, that the House do agree with the Committee of
the whole House in their agreement to the said report, and resolved in
the affirmative.
THURSDAY, March 2.
The bill for the relief of American seamen was read the third time and
passed.
_Military Appropriations._
On the motion of Mr. W. SMITH, the House went into a committee of the
Whole on the bill making appropriation for the Military Establishment,
when the following items were agreed to without debate:
For the payment of the army, $256,450
For the subsistence of the officers, 47,395
For the subsistence of the non-commissioned
officers and privates, 245,283
For forage, 14,904
For clothing, 83,050
Mr. W. SMITH then proposed to insert a new item, in consequence of the
bill just passed, "For the purchase of horses and the equipment of the
cavalry, $16,085."
Mr. GALLATIN said, the items which had been agreed to were upon the
ground of an increase of 126 dragoons which was not in the former bill.
The item now under consideration went to provide horses and equipments
for an additional company of cavalry. It appeared that this company was
heretofore without either, so that they must have been employed as
dismounted dragoons; and if they now appropriated the sum before them,
they would, in fact, add a company of horse to the establishment. He
believed it to be the general opinion that they had cavalry sufficient
at present; indeed, it was the opinion of a large majority of that House
that none were necessary; but if they did appropriate for any, he
thought they ought not to go beyond the present establishment.
Mr. W. SMITH said, if they refused to make the appropriation under
consideration, they declared that one of the two companies of cavalry
should act as infantry. By the bill passed yesterday, it was left
altogether to the option of the PRESIDENT to employ them either as
cavalry or infantry: but if this appropriation was withheld, he would be
under the necessity of employing them as infantry only, and this House
would now exercise a discretion which only yesterday they had vested in
the Executive.
It would be observed, that, in the message of the PRESIDENT, he had
fully stated the reasons why dragoons would be requisite. The business
upon which one of the companies was at present employed was to escort
the Commissioners employed in running the boundary lines betwixt the
territory of the United States and the Indians; the other was
indispensable for the protection of the frontiers.
What, Mr. S. asked, would be the consequence of refusing this
appropriation? One of the companies of dragoons would be obliged to act
as infantry, and Government would be compelled to employ militia-horse
at a great expense. If this was economy, he was mistaken in his ideas of
economy. The sum was conformable to the estimate which he had received
from the War Office.
Mr. HARTLEY was in favor of the appropriation, that the PRESIDENT might
be at full liberty to employ the troops on foot or on horse-back,
according as the service might require.
Mr. NICHOLAS thought, while they were making appropriations, this
subject might as well be included. If these men were to be kept, they
ought to be properly equipped. He said it was the opinion of the
PRESIDENT and the Secretary of War that cavalry was necessary, and
therefore he had concluded it would be proper, and wished them to be
kept up, so as to be called into service whenever necessary.
Mr. MILLEDGE thought there was great need of cavalry; it would be an
object of policy, as, by information he had received from the Governor
of Georgia, (which he had in his hand, and which was corroborated by a
late Governor,) horse were absolutely necessary--he thought three
companies--on the frontier. He therefore was in favor of the
appropriation.
Mr. VARNUM had no doubt but the gentleman from Georgia, and every
gentleman in the House, would be glad to have horse and infantry too
kept up in their State: every part would be glad to have the public
money expended upon it. He could not see why a body of cavalry should be
kept up in a time of peace. He thought the Legislature had as good a
right to judge as any person, notwithstanding the authorities produced
to sanction the appropriation. Mr. V. had no doubt, if this was granted,
that application would soon be made again for a similar purpose. He
hoped this appropriation would not take place; it would be a small
saving, and might as well be made, as there was so much want of it. He
could have wished the troops reduced to two regiments, which he thought
quite sufficient for a Peace Establishment. He hoped the PRESIDENT's
ideas on the subject would not obtain to govern the decisions of the
House, as we have the power, said he, to withhold appropriations; and
what gentlemen who were locally concerned should say, he could not be
guided by; as soldiers would consume their produce and spend money
amongst them, consequently they were interested.
Mr. CRAIK really lamented that the gentleman had not been in the House
yesterday, at the time the subject was more under consideration: he
might then have inveighed against the PRESIDENT. The observations might
have come with more propriety, if they had been made before the bill
passed, and when under discussion; but, after a law has passed the
proper authorities--after it has been resolved to have these troops of
horse--to say, we will not appropriate money to carry it into effect, is
strange conduct. If the determination of the gentleman was to oppose the
bill, he should have used every means to that purpose, and if not
effectual, at least to suffer others to enjoy their will--especially a
majority. For the sake of consistency, he hoped the gentleman would
withdraw his opposition, and not in this side-way try to defeat the
operation of a bill which has passed. The cavalry were voted because
they were supposed to be necessary, and now a gentleman comes forward,
endeavoring to excite the jealousy of the House on the Executive's
meddling with the Military Establishment. Mr. C. said he was pleased
that the PRESIDENT had refused it, if it was only to convince some
gentlemen that he had power to refuse that or any other bill. [Here Mr.
DENT asked the gentleman if he was in order.] Mr. CRAIK said he only
wished to prove the inconsistency of the member's conduct. He thought
the House should not betray a want of consistency. He believed, from the
statement of the member from Georgia, and the reasons of the PRESIDENT,
that horse were necessary, and he therefore should wish the
appropriation to be passed.
Mr. KITCHELL said, gentlemen seemed to be mistaken; they were
continually alluding to the law passed yesterday. There was not a word
about two troops of horse yesterday. All we then said, was, that we
would not say there should not be two troops of horse; the Message of
the PRESIDENT did not say that two troops should be mounted, nor do I
say, said Mr. K., that horse are not necessary; I think some are
necessary; but the inquiry seemed to be, now, whether the House were to
vote for more.
Mr. W. SMITH said, the gentleman's observations were very extraordinary;
he surely could not have attended to the subject, to say that the House
had not passed the law authorizing two troops of horse. We have a law in
force, said he, to ascertain and fix the Military Establishment, in
which we authorize the PRESIDENT to employ the two troops of dragoons,
to serve either on horse or foot at his discretion. The bill we sent up
yesterday does not repeal that law, and yet gentlemen would now come
forward to oppose the appropriation, and determine they shall act on
foot. He could not think with what propriety the restriction could be
made as the gentleman from Massachusetts wishes, nor could he think how
the gentleman from Jersey had attended. Should we now say they should be
at our direction, and that we would not grant money without? This would
be strange conduct--an assumption of power which he hoped the House
would never arrogate.
Mr. KITCHELL said his meaning was, that the horse were not established
yesterday, but before.
Mr. HARTLEY said it appeared, from good testimony, that the troops were
requisite to save the people on the frontiers from the depredations of
the Indians; he thought, therefore, that they having been established
before, the House were bound to make the appropriation to give effect,
or show the great inconsistency.
Mr. NICHOLAS said it was not his intention to vote for these men at all;
but if they must have them, perhaps it would be most economical to equip
them. With respect to their power of withholding the appropriation, he
had no doubt; and though they had yesterday passed a law establishing
two companies of cavalry, it was in the power of that House, of the
Senate, or of the PRESIDENT, to refuse an appropriation. This was the
sense of the constitution. When the bill came before the House, he
should give his negative to the additional horse; for, if they were
always to keep up the same number of men, whether in war or peace,
except two-thirds of both Houses were found to oppose the will of the
PRESIDENT, they might bid adieu to all restraint upon Executive power,
and count upon a military Government, if ever an Executive should be
found whose will it should be to make it so. If these were to be kept
up, he would still say the House had better go to $100,000 expense to
mount them on horse-back.
Mr. VARNUM said it was observed by gentlemen that those troops were not
mounted; if so, there must have been a very lavish waste of money.
However that might be, gentlemen who state this matter ought to state it
fairly. They ought not to say that two companies of cavalry were
yesterday voted. No, they were part of the old War Establishment. It was
true, the House had not the power to repeal the law; but one thing was
in their power, and that they ought to do, if they see this part of the
standing army necessary. The constitution returns the power to act on it
once in every two years to each branch of the Legislature. The House, he
thought, had good right to exercise their own opinion on the necessity
of mounting these men. It was not in the power of one branch to repeal
the law which keeps these men, but we ought to consider whether they are
to be put in the same situation as in time of war. Mr. V. said he
discharged his duty in voting against this appropriation. The House had
a right to judge, and it was not in the power of the PRESIDENT to act
for them.
Mr. HEATH said that the subject had been fully discussed, and therefore
he should only observe, that, from the authority which had recommended
the mounting of these cavalry, he should vote for the appropriation.
Mr. MILLEDGE repeated his arguments on the local situation of the
country, and asserted the absolute necessity of the troops.
The motion was put and carried--there being 56 in favor of it.
_Naval Appropriations._
Mr. W. SMITH then proposed to add $172,000 for finishing the frigates
United States, Constitution, and Constellation.
Mr. NICHOLAS said he should be against appropriating so large a sum for
this purpose. It was the sense of the House, on a former occasion, that
it would be proper to appropriate such a sum as should put them in such
a situation as to secure them from injury, but to stop short of making
them fit for sea, that the expense of manning them might be avoided.
Mr. SWANWICK said a new view of the subject seemed to be brought forward
at present. Before, they had determined to finish the frigates; but now,
they were not to finish them, lest they should be manned, but to finish
them in part only. A gentleman yesterday said, when speaking on the
subject of the PRESIDENT's Message, that he could not suppose they would
have refused to pay the soldiers, though there might be some deficiency
in the expression of the act; and might he not suppose, said Mr. S., if
the frigates were so nearly finished, he might go on to finish them, and
trust to the Legislature to furnish the money? These frigates, he said,
were a very extraordinary concern. It seemed as if it was only when it
was to be made a present of to Algiers, that a frigate could be
finished, and not when it was for the protection of our own commerce. He
trusted, however, that there would not be a majority found in that House
who would vote against finishing the frigates: as to manning them, that
would remain for a future consideration.
Mr. PARKER said, it would require all the money which had been named for
finishing the frigates, without rigging, though there would be a
considerable quantity of materials left on hand. There need be no
apprehension of their being manned, whilst seamen's wages remained at
the price they were, because men could not be got on the terms
stipulated in the law for this purpose. If a smaller sum than was
mentioned were to be granted, they might as well give nothing.
Mr. SITGREAVES supposed the blank was now proposed to be filled with the
same sum which had been agreed upon on a former occasion. If this were
the case, it ought to dissipate the fears of the gentleman from
Virginia, (Mr. NICHOLAS,) as it was well known that the sum was
predicated upon a supposition that the frigates were not to be manned.
If they were to be manned, a further appropriation would certainly be
necessary.
Mr. NICHOLAS said, it appeared to him that if all gentlemen were agreed
that this business should go no further than the building of the
frigates, they could have no hesitation to leave undone some of the
internal finishing work of the vessels; if they did not wish to put them
into such a situation as that they might force them into service upon
the spur of an alarm, they could have no objection to their being left
in such a situation as to be perfectly secure, but not finished fit for
sea.
Mr. SITGREAVES said this subject had heretofore undergone a very full
discussion. A motion was then made merely to finish the hulls, which was
negatived. It was then said that contracts were made for all the
materials, and that except the frigates were finished, the engagements
which had been entered into could not be fulfilled. But there was
another security against the danger apprehended. They had lately come to
a determination to make all appropriations specific and particular. What
was the language of the present appropriation? It was for finishing the
frigates, not for manning them. If it had been said to be for carrying
into effect the law for the Naval Establishment, there might have been
some little ground for apprehension; but, as it now stood, the Executive
could not proceed to man the vessels.
Mr. NICHOLAS said, when they voted the sum now asked for finishing the
frigates, the expenditure was accompanied by a law to repeal the manning
clause of the former act. He had made inquiries respecting contracts,
and found the money in hand was equal to the fulfilment of them; if
there had been any others, he supposed they should have heard of them.
He again said there were many ornamental parts of the vessels which
might be as well thrown upon the expense of next year as of this.
Mr. SWANWICK said, if Government could have had foresight sufficient to
have known that there would have been any objections made to the
finishing of the frigates, they would certainly not have entered into
any contracts to that extent, but they could not possibly do this. He
wished, if gentlemen were determined the frigates should not be made use
of, that they would say at once they should be sold on the stocks. With
respect to manning of them from the money proposed to be appropriated,
that was impossible, and he saw no reason for making the business
_doubly sure_ by any other precaution.
Mr. HOLLAND said it was, with great propriety, intended by many members
in the House to keep the frigates in such a state as to prevent their
being manned. If we appropriate to finish them, said he, we shall be
exposed to all the difficulties depicted by the gentleman from
Pennsylvania; for some way would be devised to procure and pay men, if
the House put it in the power of the Executive to do it: therefore he
hoped, to avoid all that trouble and expense, they would not vote to
finish them. For what purpose, said he, should they be finished, unless
it were intended to man them? To avoid every danger of that kind, he
should vote against the sum proposed.
Mr. HARTLEY said, that last year the six frigates which had been before
voted for were reduced to three, with intent to complete them. Was it
not probable then, he would ask, that the PRESIDENT would proceed to
complete those frigates, according to the power given him? Was it not to
be supposed that contracts were entered into for that purpose? No person
could suppose but contracts were made. Then certainly the House ought
not to expose the Executive to the ridiculous situation of receding from
his contracts! They would not be finished before next session, and
therefore no danger of equipping could be apprehended. It may be
necessary to use them, but at any rate it would be running no risk to
have them finished, as they could not be manned by this appropriation.
Mr. GALLATIN said, there seemed to be involved in the present
consideration the question whether or not we should have a Navy. As to
himself, he should vote against the present appropriation, because if
the frigates were completely finished, he should fear they would get to
sea. When they had on a former occasion consented to finish them, it was
under the condition of the law for manning being repealed; but they now
stood upon new ground. Mr. G. said he had been charged with
inconsistency of opinion, from having before said that he thought the
PRESIDENT would not be authorized to proceed in the manning of the
vessels under the present law, whilst he was now apprehensive that he
might do so. He wished to be on sure ground. He did not know but the
PRESIDENT might put a different construction upon the law from him.
Indeed, from the experience they had had of Presidential discretion,
they need not be surprised if the vessels were sent to sea, though no
appropriation was made for the purpose, should the PRESIDENT suppose
there was any plea for doing so. As a proof of this power having been
exercised heretofore, Mr. G. referred to the Western insurrection. In
that case, he said, no appropriation was made for the expense; but the
law authorizes the PRESIDENT to call out the militia when he shall see
occasion to do so; he called them out, and got money from the Treasury.
Indeed, the building of a frigate for Algiers, without any authority,
and the pledging of the faith of the nation to pay the expense of the
law-suits of our citizens in London, were strong proofs of what the
Executive could do.
Mr. G. said he did not mean to bring into view any arguments relative to
the propriety of establishing a Navy in this country. He should vote
against the present motion, because he did not wish to see the frigates
at sea, and because he conceived a Navy to be prejudicial to the true
interests of this country. Something had been said about contracts, but
he did not believe any existed. They had last year been told the same
thing. Any person reading the statements which had been furnished to
them, would perceive that the business was not done by any contract, but
that men were employed by Government, and regular wages paid to them.
The frigate which had been built for Algiers had been built by contract,
they had an estimate of it at so much a ton, but this was not the case
with respect to any other of the frigates.
Mr. W. SMITH did not wish to go into a long debate on the subject, when
they had so much business before them, in order to show whether it was
proper for this country to have a Navy or not; the only question now
was, whether they ought to appropriate money for finishing the three
frigates. If they did not do it, all the money which had been already
expended would probably be lost. The only objection to the doing of this
seemed to arise from a fear that the vessels would be manned, though
when this subject was before them, the other day, the gentleman from
Pennsylvania (Mr. GALLATIN) moved to postpone the bill relative to the
repealing or suspending the law for manning the vessels till next
session, from an opinion that, by the present law, the PRESIDENT was not
authorized to man them. That gentleman seemed now, however, in
contradiction to himself, to fear the PRESIDENT would put a different
construction upon the law: if he did not believe the PRESIDENT would
violate the law, he could not account for his refusing now to vote the
money which was merely necessary to finish the vessels. Mr. S. read an
extract from the report of the Secretary of War, to show the forward
state in which the vessels were, and added, that they were bound in duty
to finish them, were it only to prevent the loss of the money already
expended upon them.
Mr. DEARBORN observed, that if he was convinced, from the documents
which had been laid before them, that the sum now asked for was
necessary merely to finish the frigates, he should not hesitate to vote
for it; but it was not a little extraordinary that the gentlemen on that
committee (not even the Chairman, who seemed to have the business so
much at heart) could not say whether this sum was necessary for
finishing and rigging, or finishing without rigging, or for finishing,
rigging, and manning. The frigate building in this city, the captain had
told him, was calculated in point of size to carry 62 guns, instead of
44; which was one of the reasons they had cost so much more than they
had been estimated at. Mr. D. said, he suspected that the sum proposed
would not only be sufficient to finish the hulls, but to rig and fit the
vessels for sea, and until he had more satisfaction on the subject he
could not consent to give his vote for it.
Mr. KITTERA observed, that gentlemen first said, that under the present
law, the PRESIDENT could not proceed to man and send the vessels to sea,
but now they were apprehensive this might be done, though no
appropriation was made for the purpose. This, he thought, somewhat
inconsistent; but he believed whilst thirty dollars a month was given to
seamen by merchants, and their law only authorized eleven to be given,
there was not much to be feared on this head.
Mr. AMES said, that gentlemen opposed to the finishing of the frigates,
seemed to be also opposed to all ideas of this country ever becoming a
naval power; the necessity of this, he was persuaded, would ere long
appear. It was not to be supposed that a nation whose commerce was
greater than that of any other, except Great Britain, should go on long
without a naval protection; and he believed the more strenuous the
opposition shown against this measure, the sooner it would be
accomplished; he was not therefore displeased to see the present violent
opposition to every thing which looked towards this object.
It was not enough, Mr. A. said, for gentlemen to discourage the building
of ships, they would also discredit the administration of Government;
and nothing was more natural than that those who thought so ill of it
themselves should endeavor to spread those opinions. This was done
continually. With respect to the building of the frigates, he thought it
was a wise step; and as to the extra expense and delay which had
attended the business, he believed, gentlemen might take a share of the
blame upon themselves, on account of the versatility which had been
shown upon the occasion in this day agreeing upon one thing, and that
upon another. It was true, that another cause of extra expense was owing
to a resolution which had been taken to make the ships much larger than
was contemplated by the House; the vessel building here, he believed,
was nearly 1,600 tons. He was glad that this alteration of plan had been
adopted; not because more money would be expended on this account; not
because contrary to the direction of the Legislature, but because true
wisdom required it; they would now be an overmatch for any frigate, or
any vessel which the Algerines could send out against them. These, he
believed, were the views of the Executive in having them built of the
size they were. The number of the frigates agreed to be finished had
been reduced to three; and these they last session passed a law to
finish. But what was now to be done? It was said they should not be
finished. Who said this? Did the people? did the Government say it? No;
that House alone said it: so that that House were about to usurp the
supreme authority. We are the Government, we are the people, we are
every thing.
But, if there be a law which says that these three frigates should be
built and equipped for sea, was it not necessary, before it was
concluded that they should not be so built and equipped, that this law
should be repealed by all the branches of the Legislature? No, say
gentlemen, we can appropriate or not, according to our sovereign will
and pleasure. If they possessed the power to nullify what was enacted by
all the three branches of Government, it was greatly to be lamented. But
if they could appropriate according to their will, they were bound to
do it also according to their consciences too. It was not only a weapon,
but a shield, which it was their duty to use with great caution, and
according to law; for, if they were to use it contrarily, it would be to
make that House the supreme power, it would be to usurp the supreme
authority.
Mr. COIT believed the only real question before them was, what sum they
would appropriate for this object; he wished the mover would consent to
leave the item blank.
Mr. W. SMITH had no objection to its being left blank.
Mr. VENABLE said, if this was a mere question of expense, it was very
extraordinary that it should have called forth such a philippic from the
gentleman from Massachusetts, (Mr. AMES,) who had charged the House with
arrogating to itself all the powers of Government; as being omnipotent.
Upon what ground could he found such charges? If it were a question of
expense merely, there could certainly be no ground for such charges; but
if it were to be considered as a question of power, if they were to be
told they dared not to withhold the appropriation in question, here he
would intrench himself as a Representative of the people; he had a
right, as a member of that House, to vote against the expense which he
thought improper, and he would exercise that right. Every branch of
Government had the same right, and he wished them to exercise it. And he
would not be told, when he was about to exercise this right, that he was
arrogating to himself all the powers of Government. He was determined to
exercise his discretion on every question which came before him for
decision, and he would vote against this expense.
Mr. NICHOLAS said, the gentleman from Massachusetts (Mr. AMES) seldom
spoke without casting some denunciation against that House. He had,
however, allowed that the PRESIDENT had done, with respect to this
fleet, all that any gentleman had charged him with doing; he had even
put the case stronger than any other person had put it; for he had said
that the Executive had determined to build the vessels of a larger size
than had been contemplated by the Legislature, in order to be an
overmatch for any other frigate. All this, said Mr. N., may be right,
and the approbation he gave this conduct, was a proof the gentleman
thought so; all he had to say was, that it was not legal; it might be
patriotic, and be done with an intention to serve the country; the
PRESIDENT might understand the interests of the country better than
they; but it was a conduct which would not meet with the same
approbation from him that it met with from the gentleman from
Massachusetts. That gentleman had also said that a law imposed a duty
upon the House to find the means for carrying it into effect. Were they
not, then, to be called upon for money to man the frigates? He asked
those gentlemen whether the PRESIDENT had not a right to man the
frigates, and if so, whether they should not be _obliged_ to find the
money?
The powers of this House to control appropriations, had, however,
already been settled. It was, indeed, an absurdity to call a body a
Legislature, and at the same time deny them a control over the public
purse; if this were not so, where would be the use of going through the
forms of that House with a money bill? The Executive might as well draw
upon the Treasury at once for whatever sums he might stand in need of. A
doctrine like this would be scouted even in despotic countries.
And what was all this power that so much alarmed the gentleman from
Massachusetts? It was merely a negative power to refuse to do what they
thought it would be mischievous to do. Mr. N. said there was a very
fashionable doctrine of throwing all power into the hands of the
Executive. If there were to be extremes, however, he believed an excess
of power would at least be as safe in their hands as in those of the
Executive; and if this were his opinion, and the ground upon which he
acted, the gentleman from Massachusetts never failed to take an opposite
direction. He never thought any Executive power too great.
Mr. PARKER remarked, that it had been said the frigates would carry 62
guns; it might have been possible to have made them so, but they were no
more than a large sized 44-gun frigate. They might be a little larger
than any other of that number of guns, but not so much. It was true they
were not at first contemplated to be so large, but strong reasons were
offered for making them of the present size; the expense was not
increased by the increase of size, in proportion to their usefulness. He
therefore himself approved of what the PRESIDENT had done; and, if he
had had the management of the business, he should have done the same. It
had been doubted whether the sum proposed to be granted would not only
finish, but equip and man the vessels. If the gentleman who had these
doubts would refer to the report which had been made on the subject, he
would find that $220,000 would be required for that purpose; the
$172,000 proposed would barely make them ready for sea in other
respects.
The gentleman from Pennsylvania, (Mr. GALLATIN,) who was generally very
correct in his statements, had supposed that if the frigates were
finished, the PRESIDENT might go on to man them without consulting the
Legislature upon the occasion; and, to show the possibility of doing
this, he had alluded to his having built a frigate for the Algerines
without the approbation of Congress. He lamented the situation in which
we stood with that country, but he believed the building of the frigate
was necessary. The Western insurrection, and the law-suits in London had
also been named, which he should not stop to notice.
In answer to the gentleman from Pennsylvania, he would say, that if the
PRESIDENT could man the vessels and send them to sea independent of
Congress, he might also finish them without their aid; but he did not
believe he would place himself in the same situation with respect to
them as if he had to do with a foreign nation. In relation to foreign
nations, he had great power; but, if he went beyond his power with
respect to internal regulations, he would be liable to impeachment, and
he would be one of the first to promote an impeachment, were such to be
his conduct.
Mr. AMES said, he understood the gentleman from Virginia (Mr. NICHOLAS)
to say, that the conduct of the Executive was illegal; but certainly if
a frigate was estimated to cost $12,000 and it cost $15,000, the
expenditure of the additional $3,000 was not illegal.
Mr. NICHOLAS said, he had made use of the gentleman's own words with
respect to the change in the plan of building the frigates, which he had
called illegal.
Mr. AMES said, as to the size of the vessels, that was Executive
business. The gentleman from Virginia (Mr. VENABLE) seemed to take the
observation which he had made with a degree of sensibility perfectly
natural, because it went to touch the power which he had claimed as a
member of that House. The gentleman said, "Here I intrench myself behind
my privileges." Nothing was said about the public good; all was self.
And was it to be considered, he asked, that they enjoyed the powers
committed to them in their own right, as barons of empire, as sovereign
despots? Or was the power placed in them to be exercised like other
duties, according to justice and propriety? He believed no one would
deny that the latter was the truth.
How did the matter stand? They had attempted to repeal a law, but
another branch of the Legislature had refused to accede to the repeal;
of course it could not be effected. Were they then to act as if the law
had been repealed? Yes, say gentlemen, we will refuse to appropriate the
money since we think the thing unnecessary. He hoped, however, the day
would soon come (as melancholy would be the period until it did arrive)
when this power of refusing an appropriation to carry an existing law
into effect, should no longer be countenanced by a majority of that
House.
Mr. VENABLE was of opinion, that if the gentleman from Massachusetts had
only the public good in view, which he had spoken of, he could have had
no inducement to have gone into the arguments which he had introduced on
this occasion. He could assure that gentleman that he felt himself as
strongly bound to consider the public good in all his conduct as he
could be. He believed no instance could be named in which he had not
consulted that interest. As to what was, or was not, calculated for the
public good, he must be left at liberty to judge for himself. But the
gentleman had not put the business on this ground, but because gentlemen
differed in opinion from others, they were charged with assuming
absolute authority, with principles of despotism, overturning the
Government, &c.
Mr. V. said, it was his opinion, that in all laws which came before that
House, every member had a full right to say yea or nay, for which they
were not accountable to that gentleman, or to any other. The other
branches of Government had also the same power. Indeed, the other House
had exercised this right in negativing the repeal of the law relative to
the manning of these vessels. He trusted both Houses would always
continue to assert their right thus to use their discretion and
privilege.
Mr. AMES said, he had not charged that House with usurping power, or
breaking down the other branches of Government; nor did he say they had
not a discretion; but that their discretion ought to be regulated by
duty.
Mr. SWANWICK said, amidst all the foreign objections which had been
urged against this appropriation, he wished the act passed last session
to be referred to. [Mr. S. read an extract from it.] Here, in April
last, said he, it is provided that the frigates shall be finished, and
yet now gentlemen wished the House to come to a conclusion only to half
finish them. What, he asked, would the world think of such a versatility
of conduct?
Mr. KITCHELL thought, if they meant to get through the business which
lay before them, it was time they disposed of this question. He thought
the debate upon it had been sufficiently long.
Mr. BRENT said, when this subject first came before the committee, he
had determined to give the sum necessary to complete them; nor had he
ever wavered on the subject, until he heard the ground which had been
taken by the gentleman from Massachusetts, (Mr. AMES.) He did most
feelingly participate in the sentiments expressed by his colleague (Mr.
VENABLE) on the occasion. It was really difficult to know what was the
amount of his doctrines. In the first instance, he understood the
gentleman to rise for two purposes, viz: to justify the Executive from
certain charges which had been brought against him, and to show the
obligation which the House lay under to grant the money.
In the first place, the gentleman said the Executive had been charged
with violating the law; and, when he went into the subject, he
understood him to say, as his colleague understood him, that the
Executive had changed the plan; he understood him to say, that though
Congress had ordered 44-gun frigates, he had ordered 74's, which remark
he concluded by expressing his approbation of the PRESIDENT's conduct.
If he admitted that the Executive had violated the law, and yet
felicitated him upon having done so, he might enjoy his pleasure, he
would not participate with him.
With respect to the second part of his observations, as to the absolute
necessity under which every member lay to vote for the sum required for
finishing the frigates, because the building of them was directed by
law, this was a most important point. He thought this involved one of
the most valuable principles which that House possessed, and which
should never be lost sight of, viz: the right of every member to
exercise his discretion upon every question, appropriations as well as
others, which came before him. Did not the gentleman know that the most
solemn decision had taken place last session on this subject, by a large
majority? Indeed, said he, this sentiment was so ingrafted in the
constitution that the House could not divest themselves of it; for the
gentleman to say they did not possess it, was to make a dead letter of
their privileges. There could be no doubt on the subject; and it was a
sacred and essential principle which would go further to preserve our
liberties than any other which they possessed. He trusted, therefore,
they should guard it with special care.
Mr. GALLATIN said, he did not mean to follow the gentleman from
Massachusetts in what he had said on this subject, because he had not
felt the force of what he had advanced, nor very well understood what he
meant. Both his meaning and his motive for bringing this subject before
them to-day were to him mysterious. He had brought before them the
Treaty question anew, and it would be recollected what were the feelings
of the House on that occasion; but he could see no relation which it
bore to the present question; and though a number of members in that
House had asserted that they were bound to appropriate money to carry a
treaty into effect, he did not believe they were ready to say the same
with respect to laws.
The gentleman from Massachusetts had said, that if they put a meaning
upon the constitution in this respect different from him, that they
arrogated the supreme power to themselves. Did not he know that the
doctrine applied to the Senate as well as to that House? and did he not
see that that would be a check upon the abuse of it in either House,
since it was a weapon which both could use?
The gentleman had said they were bound to obey the law. Bound to obey
what law? The law for authorizing the building of the three frigates? He
did not understand how this law was to bind them. This was a mere
administrative law, which did not extend to the citizens of the United
States, but gave power to the PRESIDENT to do a certain act; therefore,
as citizens, they had nothing to do with that law, except they were to
obey it by appropriating the money necessary to carry it into effect.
Yet the gentleman allowed there might be cases in which it would be
right to use discretion in the appropriation of money. For his part, he
did not understand the being bound and not bound at the same time; to
have discretion and no discretion. He wished either that the one or the
other opinion might be adopted; and that they might be told that they
had, or that they had not, a right to exercise discretion in the
appropriation of money. If this exercise were to be allowed in any case,
why could it not be allowed in the present? He wondered, therefore, that
gentlemen in favor of this motion should have touched upon this ground.
He agreed with the gentleman that they had this discretion, and that it
ought to be used with caution, and not upon trifling occasions. But he
conceived this to be one of those occasions in which it was necessary
for those opposed to a Naval Establishment, to vote against this
appropriation. He meant against the appropriation in its extent. It was
because he considered a Naval Establishment as highly injurious to the
interests of this country, he should vote against every measure which
had a tendency to produce it. That gentleman, and others who thought
differently, would vote accordingly.
Mr. G. moved an amendment, viz: that before the word "frigates," to add
"the hulls of." On the question, ayes 45, noes 44--the Chairman giving
his vote against the amendment, it was not carried. It was then put in
the original form, to finish the frigates, the sum of ---- dollars, and
carried--ayes 54.
The question on the blank being filled with $172,000 was then put, and
carried--ayes 47.
Mr. GALLATIN moved to add an item to pay the bounty of one hundred
dollars which they had agreed should be paid to every officer discharged
from the military service in consequence of the regulations which had
taken place in the establishment.
This item was filled up with three thousand dollars.
Mr. GALLATIN moved to add the following words: "which several sums shall
be solely applied to the objects for which they are respectively
appropriated."
Mr. W. SMITH wished, as much as the gentleman from Pennsylvania, to
confine the expenditure to the sums appropriated; but the provision for
some objects might fall short, while others might have a surplus, which
he thought ought to be made use of to supply deficiencies in cases of
emergency. Ever since the establishment of the present Government, the
whole appropriation for the Military Establishment had been considered
as an aggregate fund out of which any of the objects of that
establishment might be paid for; but the expense of each object was now
to be confined to the specific appropriation. He was afraid, however
well this might look in theory, it would be found very mischievous in
practice. He wished the gentleman would amend his proposition by adding,
"so far as may be consistent with public exigency;" this would restrict
the expenditures, except in unforeseen cases of emergency, to provide
for which some latitude of discretion ought to be left to the Executive.
Mr. SITGREAVES did not see the necessity or propriety of the amendment
of his colleague, when the House had distributed the appropriations
amongst the different objects; as the amendment, he conceived, meant
nothing more than the department should not expend any more than the sum
appropriated for the different items, which they had no right to do if
there were no amendment. Heretofore, when appropriations were made in a
mass, the Secretary of War did not feel himself bound to govern himself
by the estimate which he had given in, but by particularizing the
different items, the former evil was corrected.
Mr. GALLATIN said, if the fact was exactly as it had been stated by his
colleague, his amendment might be unnecessary, but the Treasury
Department had not acted upon the principle which he had stated. They
had, notwithstanding the distribution of the appropriation, thought
themselves at liberty to take the money from an item where there was a
surplus, and apply it to another, where it was wanted. And when this was
objected to, as taking from the Legislature their appropriating power,
they answered that the Legislature had entered so much into detail that
they could not attend to their directions. They had, last session, made
the appropriations more specific than at present, yet the Secretary of
the Treasury, in a letter written to the House during this session,
said, "that it was well known to have been a rule since the
establishment of the Government, that the appropriations for the
Military Establishment were considered as general grants of money,
liable to be issued to any of the objects included under that
department." Therefore, unless this amendment was introduced, it would
leave the power as before. In order to make the business more easy, all
the contingent expenses were appropriated in one sum.
The object of this amendment, said Mr. G., was that no part of the pay
of the Army should go to the Quartermaster's Department, &c., and that
none of them should go to the building or equipping the frigates; but if
this were not the case, money might be found to get the frigates to sea
from the appropriations for the Military Department, if the PRESIDENT
should think it necessary so to apply it. As to the amendment, it would
do away the intention of it altogether.
Mr. HARPER was against the amendment. He thought the Department ought to
be at liberty, in case of an appropriation proving deficient, to have
recourse to other funds where there might be a surplus, and as none
would be taken, except where there was a surplus, he could see no
objection to this being allowed. Indeed, for want of such a privilege
very serious inconveniences might arise to the service, in case of
accident or unforeseen events.
Mr. GALLATIN said, the law did not operate in the manner which the
gentleman last up supposed. They had lately voted a sum of forty
thousand dollars to make good a deficiency of last year, which had been
used for some other purpose; in consequence the deficiency fell upon the
pay of the Army, although that could not increase, because the number of
men was never increased; it might be less, as the nominal, not the
actual number of men was appropriated for.
Mr. KITTERA thought the amendment a bad one. Suppose, said he, a boat
should be overset with tents in the lake, or a magazine blown up, the
losses could not be repaired, because, though there might be surplus
sums in the Treasury from other items in the establishment, yet, if this
amendment prevailed, they could not be touched. He thought this would be
the effect; he was against innovations.
The amendment was put and carried, there being fifty-four votes in favor
of it.
The committee then rose, and the House took up the amendments.
And then the main question, "to finish the frigates ---- dollars," was
taken by yeas and nays, as follows:
YEAS.--Fisher Ames, Abraham Baldwin, Theophilus Bradbury,
Richard Brent, Daniel Buck, Dempsey Burges, Joshua Coit,
William Cooper, William Craik, Samuel W. Dana, James
Davenport, Henry Dearborn, George Dent, George Ege, William
Findlay, Abiel Foster, Dwight Foster, Nathaniel Freeman,
jr., Ezekiel Gilbert, Nicholas Gilman, Henry Glenn,
Chauncey Goodrich, Roger Griswold, William B. Grove, Robert
Goodloe Harper, Carter B. Harrison, Thomas Hartley, John
Heath, William Hindman, John Wilkes Kittera, Edward
Livingston, Samuel Lyman, Francis Malbone, John Milledge,
Frederick A. Muhlenberg, William Vans Murray, John
Nicholas, Alexander D. Orr, Josiah Parker, Elisha R.
Potter, John Read, Samuel Sewall, Samuel Sitgreaves,
Jeremiah Smith, Nathaniel Smith, Isaac Smith, William
Smith, Thomas Sprigg, John Swanwick, Zephaniah Swift,
George Thatcher, Richard Thomas, Mark Thompson, John A. Van
Allen, Philip Van Cortlandt, Joseph B. Varnum, Peleg
Wadsworth, and John Williams.
NAYS.--Theodorus Bailey, David Bard, Thomas Blount, Nathan
Bryan, Samuel J. Cabell, Gabriel Christie, Thomas
Claiborne, John Clopton, Isaac Coles, Jesse Franklin,
Albert Gallatin, James Gillespie, Christopher Greenup,
Andrew Gregg, Wade Hampton, John Hathorn, Jonathan N.
Havens, James Holland, Andrew Jackson, George Jackson,
Matthew Locke, William Lyman, Samuel Maclay, Nathaniel
Macon, Andrew Moore, Anthony New, John Patton, John
Richards, Israel Smith, Richard Sprigg, jr., William
Strudwick, and Abraham Venable.
The question to fill the blank with $178,000 was then put and
carried--ayes 47, noes 42, and the bill ordered for a third reading
to-morrow.
FRIDAY, March 3.
_Call for Statements._
Mr. GALLATIN said, he wished to propose to the House three resolutions,
calling for statements relative to the War Department, which he wished
to be laid before the House at the next session. They had heard it said
upon that floor, by gentlemen who were considered to be well acquainted
with the subject, that many expenses had taken place in that Department
which ought to have been checked. Conceiving a check of this kind to be
necessary, and knowing the expense of the Military Department was
increasing from year to year, beyond what the increase in the number of
troops would warrant, it was proper to lay the foundation of an inquiry
into the subject. Indeed, having just passed a pretty severe law
relative to the Receivers of Public Money, and understanding that the
Secretary of the Treasury had a long list of delinquents, he was
desirous of taking some steps in the business. From these
considerations, he offered the following resolutions for acceptance:
"_Resolved_, That the Secretary of the Treasury be directed
to lay before the House of Representatives, within the
first week of January next, abstracts of the accounts of
all paymasters, quartermasters, contractors, agents for the
purchase of supplies, and generally of all the Receivers of
Public Moneys, paid from the Treasury from the 1st of
January, 1791, to the 1st of January, 1797, on account of
the Military Establishment, so as to exhibit a detailed
statement of the whole amount of moneys thus expended to
that period; and whether any of the accounts be not finally
settled; and shall lay before the House an estimate of
moneys not accounted for.
"_Resolved_, That the Secretary of the Treasury be directed
to lay, at the same time, before the House of
Representatives similar abstracts of the accounts of all
the Receivers of Public Money expended for the building of
the frigates.
"_Resolved_, That it shall be the duty of the Secretary of
the Treasury to lay before the House of Representatives,
within the last week of January in each year, a statement
of money expended for the Military Establishment during the
next preceding year, distinguishing the sums expended under
each head, for which specific appropriations have been
made, and an estimate of the probable unsettled demands in
relation to each of those heads."
The resolutions were severally agreed to.