Sir T. D. Acland.
Viscount Courtenay.
Mr. Denison.
Mr. Evans.
Captain Fitzroy.
Mr. Forster.
Sir R. H. Inglis.
Mr. W. Patten.
Mr. G. Wood.
Mr. Wortley.
LORD VISCOUNT SANDON, in the chair.
_Henry William Macaulay_, Esq., called in; and further examined.
5474. _Chairman._] Do you wish to correct any portion of your previous
evidence?--I do. In reply to question 5176, in reference to Dr. Madden’s
statement about the surveyors, I said, “The surveyor is not employed by
the court, but subsequently to the condemnation of the vessel he is
employed by the captor to survey, in order to enable him to make a
claim, according to the tonnage, through his agent in England.” There
are two classes of surveyors; the one referred to in this reply: the
other, which I ought to have mentioned also, are the surveyors employed
by the court to see to the equipment of the vessel, and this survey
takes place before condemnation. I referred to the latter surveyors
yesterday in my evidence; but I mentioned only the surveyor employed by
the captor to measure the vessel for the tonnage in my former
examination, and it would appear as though I had on the first occasion
understated the officers of the court. We have two surveyors employed by
the court in equipment cases, not in the case of vessels laden with
slaves. There is another correction I wish to make: in the answer to
question 5087, I stated that “It appears that it is a regular thing,
sending vessels to him, that is to Mr. Zulueta: if they come to England
to him, he sends them to Cadiz, and they get out again to the Havannah,
and come again into the trade.” My answer was intended to describe only
the course of that particular transaction, and not to apply to any other
case.
5475. I observe in answer to 5087, to which you refer, you state that
Zulueta “is a name well known on the coast in connexion with the slave
trade, and any man ought to have been careful of being connected with
such a person as that.” Will you state distinctly what charge it is you
intended to make against Mr. Zulueta in those expressions?--Zulueta was
known at Sierra Leone as the correspondent of the largest slave dealer
on the coast, Pedro Blanco; all the bills which Pedro Blanco drew upon
England were drawn upon Zulueta, and passed current in the colony of
Sierra Leone with Pedro Blanco’s name on them, and Zulueta’s as the
drawee. Zulueta was also subsequently found to be engaged in connexion
with a slave vessel called the Gollupchik.
5476. Will you state who Pedro Blanco is?--He is a merchant who has now
retired to the Havannah, but who was engaged for a long series of years
in the Gallinas, as the principal person carrying on the slave trade
there; his name occurs, for years together, in the case of very nearly
every slave vessel captured off the Gallinas.
5477. Have you reason to know whether he was solely engaged in the slave
trade?--His sole occupation was the slave trade.
5478. You think, therefore, that Zulueta’s known connexion with Pedro
Blanco should have deterred any person who was unwilling to have aided
or abetted the slave trade from having any transaction with
him?--Certainly.
5479. Mr. _Forster_.] Are you aware that the house of Zulueta & Company
is one of the first Spanish houses in this country, and perhaps in
Spain?--I am aware that it is a very large house.
5480. You are consequently aware that it has commercial correspondence
and transactions with most of the principal houses at Havannah and in
the south of Spain?--I think it is very likely; I am not aware of it;
but I know it to be a large mercantile house.
5481. That being the case, do you not think that bills might be drawn by
Pedro Blanco on Messrs. Zulueta & Company without any direct
correspondence between that house and Pedro Blanco himself, but accepted
by order and on account of houses residing in Spain or in the
Havannah?--It is quite impossible that Mr. Zulueta should have been
ignorant of the only trade in which Pedro Blanco was engaged.
5482. But might not those bills be drawn without Messrs. Zulueta &
Company having any direct account with Mr. Pedro Blanco?--Yes, it is
possible.
5483. Then supposing a slave vessel were purchased at Sierra Leone and
sent to this market for public sale, do you see any thing extraordinary
in the party to whom the sale of that vessel is intrusted in London
selling her to one of the first Spanish houses in this country?--If it
was an Englishman who sold the vessel to the party to whom Mr. Zulueta
sold her, I should think it very extraordinary indeed, because it was
perfectly well known that Pedro Martinez, to whom she was sold, was a
slave dealer.
5484. Then you think a London merchant who is intrusted with the sale of
a vessel on the part of his correspondent in Africa, and whose duty it
is to take that vessel to the best market, would be justified in
refusing an offer for the vessel from Messrs. Zulueta & Company?--I
think it would be his duty to do so, because the chances would be ten to
one that she very soon afterwards would be employed in the slave trade.
5485. Then what justification, in your opinion, would that agent in
London be able to make to his correspondent for refusing to sell the
vessel to the highest bidder?--If the correspondent was an honest man,
I think he would be perfectly well satisfied with the representation of
his agent that the acceptance of such an offer would necessarily involve
the introduction of the vessel immediately afterwards into the slave
trade.
5486. But supposing the agent to act in that manner, would that prevent
Messrs. Zulueta & Company buying the same vessel in a circuitous manner
in this market?--No, it might not.
5487. _Chairman._] Have you any thing further to say with regard to the
connexion of Zulueta with the slave trade?--I would refer to his
connexion with the Gollupchik, which was lately captured. In that case,
it appeared that the vessel went out direct to the Gallinas from London.
5488. But you would not object to a British vessel trading lawfully with
a slave trade factory?--No.
5489. What is there then in this transaction which gives it a guilty
character?--Mr. Zulueta’s former connexion with the Gallinas slave
traders shows, that his course of trade with the Gallinas was one liable
to exception.
5490. But what is there to prove that he dealt with the slave traders in
other than lawful goods?--They would be _lawful_ goods, certainly.
5491. Do you consider it to be unlawful or improper to deal in lawful
goods with a man who is engaged in the slave trade?--I do not consider
it unlawful, but I do consider it improper; I say not unlawful, because
you cannot prove guilty knowledge, but highly improper to sell goods to
persons who, the seller must be aware, will employ them in the slave
trade afterwards.
5492. Do you hold it to be against the purport of the Act to deal in
lawful goods with persons engaged in the slave trade?--It is not against
the purport of the Act for a merchant to deal with any one, unless he is
aware that that person is engaged in the slave trade, and that the goods
that he sells will be employed for slave trade purposes.
5493. Then that which is against the purport of the Act in your opinion,
is to deal in goods, which goods will be used for unlawful
purposes?--Yes.
5494. The mere trading in lawful goods, in itself you would not consider
unlawful, or against the purport of the Act?--No.
5495. What evidence have we that Zulueta knew that in dealing with Pedro
Blanco the goods he sold would be used for the barter of slaves?--Any
body engaged in the Spanish trade would be aware that Pedro Blanco was
the largest slave trader in the world.
5496. How would Messrs. Zulueta be paid for those lawful goods by Pedro
Blanco?--I am not aware that he ever sold any goods to Pedro Blanco; the
Gollupchik did not arrive off the Gallinas till after Pedro Blanco had
left; he left I think in the latter part of 1838.
5497. It was a slave trade factory at the Gallinas with which Zulueta
was dealing?--It was with the Gallinas.
5498. In the case of dealing with a person who had no other business
than that of the slave trade, how would the payment be made?--In gold;
in doubloons generally.
5499. There would be no payment in produce?--No; and that is the way in
which all trade of that description is paid; there have been vessels
going down from Sierra Leone and trading with the Gallinas and other
slave ports, and the returns which they bring for their goods are
doubloons.
5500. And you would infer from the circumstance of bringing doubloons,
and not the produce of the country, that there was at least strong
suspicion that it was an unlawful traffic?--A strong suspicion; I would
not say more than that.
5501. Mr. _Forster_.] Suppose Messrs. Zulueta & Co. to receive an order
from their correspondent at Havannah to supply a cargo of British
merchandise to Pedro Blanco at the Gallinas, and these goods are shipped
and are regularly cleared at the custom-house in England, do you
consider that an illegal shipment?--The illegality depends upon the
guilty knowledge. I consider it an improper transaction, because he must
know the character of the person to whom he sends the goods.
5502. Do you think that Messrs. Zulueta & Co. would have been justified
as merchants in refusing to obey the instructions of their foreign
correspondent in a case of that kind?--I think that a man who viewed the
slave trade in a proper light would have considered it improper to be so
engaged.
5503. How could Messrs. Zulueta consider that illegal which was publicly
allowed to be done by the custom-house authorities in this country?--The
criminality depends upon the guilty knowledge, as to which the
custom-house cannot decide.
5504. Then it is upon those grounds that you designate Messrs. Zulueta &
Co. as connected with the slave trade?--Upon the grounds that I have
stated altogether.
5505. _Chairman._] Do you consider a merchant trading with King Peppel,
a notorious slave trader in the Bonny, and receiving the produce of the
country in exchange, to be acting against the purport of the Act of
Parliament?--No, certainly not; because there there is a legitimate
trade carried on alongside of the slave trade.
5506. Then you do not look merely at the person dealt with, but at the
object for which the traffic is carried on?--Just so: I would designate
as improper any trade carried on by a person who knew that the goods he
sold would be employed in the slave trade.
5507. Mr. _Forster_.] If you consider it lawful for a British merchant
to sell goods to so notorious a slave dealer as King Peppel, on what
ground do you consider it illegal for Messrs. Zulueta & Company to ship
a cargo of goods to Pedro Blanco or to Gallinas?--In the one case the
trader receives his return in produce, and in the other case he sells
goods which he knows will be employed in the slave trade, and for which
he receives a return in money.
5508. How do you know that he is paid in money?--I do not know that
Zulueta ever shipped goods to Pedro Blanco.
5509. Would you consider it legal if he did?--I think I have answered
that question before, that the illegality depends upon the guilty
knowledge of the party concerned, and that is a question for a jury to
decide, if he is put upon his trial.
5510. Then that depends upon your construction of the Act of the 5th of
George the Fourth?--Yes; no one can read the Act without understanding
its purport.
5511. And you think the same principle applies in the case of slave
vessels?--Yes.
5512. Mr. _Wortley_.] You stated just now that you were not aware that
Messrs. Zulueta ever shipped any goods to Pedro Blanco; did you not
previously state that that was one of your reasons for believing Messrs.
Zulueta to be connected with the slave trade?--No; the ground I stated
was the bills which Pedro Blanco drew upon them, which bills were
current all along the coast, and I have seen some of them at Sierra
Leone; they were drawn by Pedro Blanco on Zulueta; the transactions
which gave rise to those bills I do not know.
5513. Mr. _Forster_.] Do you consider the shipment of goods referred to
in the case of the Gollupchik an illegal shipment?--It was after my
time; but I presume that it was illegal, because the vessel appears to
have been condemned.
5514. _Chairman._] The legality or illegality will depend upon
circumstances, which are not before you?--Yes; all that I know of it is
from this report. There is a gentleman here to-day who seized the
vessel, Captain Hill; he will explain all the circumstances.
5515. Mr. _Forster_.] Do you consider that any vessel laden in this
country, and legally cleared at the custom-house for a slave factory on
the coast of Africa, is seizable as being engaged in an illegal
transaction?--She is seizable, but if the captor seizes her wrongfully,
the person seized would have a claim for damages. She is certainly
seizable by any man-of-war, but her condemnation would depend upon the
fact whether or not the captor made out a case.
5516. _Chairman._] The mere fact of conveying goods to a slave factory
would not be ground of condemnation, would it?--Certainly not.
5517. Mr. _Forster_.] Upon what ground can a vessel conveying a cargo of
legal merchandise to the Gallinas be condemned?--On the ground of guilty
knowledge, if it can be proved.
5518. Mr. _W. Patten_.] And that guilty knowledge would have to be left
to the jury?--Yes.
5519. _Chairman._] You have been asked upon the case of the Almirante,
in question 5238; can you in any way state what the transaction was, and
are you able to give any explanation of it?--All I remember respecting
that transaction is, that a merchant at Sierra Leone, of the name of
Benjamin Campbell, on my arrival in Sierra Leone, in 1830, spoke to me
about a sum of 500_l._, not 600_l._, that was due by him to Mr. Kenneth
Macaulay, who was at that time dead--he died in 1829--for a vessel that
Mr. Campbell had purchased from him. I did not know of that vessel
having gone into the slave trade till it was mentioned just now.
5520. The sale was made by Mr. Kenneth Macauley to Mr. Campbell?--Yes.
5521. Mr. _Forster_.] Was not Mr. Campbell an agent of the house of
Macaulay & Babington?--No, not at that time; he had been one of the
clerks in the house, but many years previously; he had long ceased to
have any connexion with the house, I suppose about five years. He was in
business for himself at the time, and in rather a large way of business.
5522. Mr. _W. Patten_.] At Sierra Leone?--Yes.
5523. _Chairman._] You have spoken in your despatch, which you read at
the last meeting of the Committee, of an extended scheme for promoting
emigration from the coast of Africa to the West Indies; will you explain
that more fully?--I would propose that the negroes should be sent to the
West Indies after emancipation, in the same way as they have been of
late years sent to the different colonies there from Havannah. Dr.
Madden, who has made this Report, was the person appointed by
Government, and specially sent out for the purpose of superintending the
emigration of the emancipated negroes from Havannah to the different
West India islands, and he would be able to give to the Committee all
the details of the regulations which were adopted and sanctioned by the
Government. I am not aware of the rules that were laid down for his
guidance; but it appears in the slave trade papers of former years,
during the time that the Duke of Wellington was Foreign Secretary, that
he required a certain proportion to be observed between males and
females, and also that negroes should be examined by a medical man, and
no unhealthy ones sent; there were other regulations also by which he
was bound; all the negroes that he could get he sent to Trinidad in the
first instance, and I believe he sent some afterwards to Honduras and
other places.
5524. Should you propose that they should remain a certain time in the
colony before they were removed to the West Indies?--No, certainly not;
I would have the removal take place immediately after emancipation.
There is an emigration agent established at Sierra Leone, so that the
whole machinery is ready at hand at once.
5525. How would you propose that the expense of transport across the
Atlantic should be defrayed?--There would be no difficulty whatever
about the expense, because the colonies to which they are sent would
gladly pay any expenses of removal. The difficulty that the Government
would experience would be, in distributing the negroes among the
different colonies; but any West India colony would gladly pay the
expense of removal of any number to their own shores.
5526. What is usually the expense incurred on account of each liberated
African under the existing system at Sierra Leone?--The commissariat
issues notice of tenders; when recruits are sent across from Sierra
Leone to the West Indies, which they are continually to supply the West
India regiments, it is open to any persons who have vessels unemployed
to tender for their removal; and if the Government undertook to remove
the negroes, I suppose it would be done in the same way.
5527. What is the expense now incurred for the maintenance of a
liberated African at Sierra Leone?--He is maintained for six months; the
allowance has been varied from 1_d._ to 2_d._ a day; but I believe now
it is 1½_d._
5528. Are you aware of the expense of transporting them across the
Atlantic?--I am not aware what has been charged; but whatever the
expense was, the colony receiving the negroes would be very happy to pay
it.
5529. You conceive that it would be a material advantage to the
liberated Africans to be placed in a West India colony, rather than
maintained for six months by Government, and afterwards thrown upon
their own resources in Sierra Leone?--It would be an advantage in every
way; an advantage first to the British Government in saving the expense
of their maintenance; it would next be an advantage to the negroes, who
are removed to a West India colony; and it would be a very great
advantage to the colony of Sierra Leone, because, though it may be well
able to support its present population, yet I think that further
importations at any rate, unless the colony is extended, should be
stopped. The advancement of the people who are now located there, is
also considerably retarded, by having fresh importations of savages
thrown amongst them from time to time, as they are, when slave ships are
condemned.
5530. Is it possible to have a society of the extent of Sierra Leone
otherwise than materially disturbed in all its moral and social
relations by 4,000 or 5,000 uncultivated negroes from various quarters
being thrown upon them at certain periods?--I think it is greatly
injured by it.
5531. Is there any amount of capital in Sierra Leone ready to take up
and give adequate employment to that influx of population?--No, not
immediate employment; the people would themselves find employment to a
certain extent, and I will not say how many more could be introduced
safely so as to find employment; but all who are there can find
employment, and can provide themselves with all the necessaries and
conveniences of life if they choose.
5532. Are there the means, except in trade, of providing for more than
the mere necessaries of life?--Agriculture is open to them to follow, if
they have sufficient inducement.
5533. Is there sufficient opportunity afforded, from the state of
agriculture in the colony, for raising more than is necessary for the
sustenance and common maintenance of the labourer?--No, not at present;
agriculture is not followed at all there for export; there are a few
articles that are not worth mentioning that are raised, but there is no
such system of agriculture for export followed that they could embark in
agriculture at once.
5534. Then you conceive that both the social and moral condition of the
negroes there would be improved, as they are now constituted, if they
were placed in the West Indies instead of in Sierra Leone?--I think so;
both for those who are left at Sierra Leone, and for those who are
removed, it would be better.
5535. Do you think that it would be desirable to give the negro the
option whether he would go to the West Indies or not?--Certainly not; it
is never done now, and the Act of Parliament does not even contemplate
such an option being given; the negro is taken to Sierra Leone, and
located there, without his opinion or wishes being consulted, and in the
same way he might be transported to the West Indies.
5536. Mr. _W. Patten_.] Is it obligatory in some of the treaties to take
them to Sierra Leone?--The new Spanish treaty requires that they shall
be established in a territory of the country to which the cruizer that
has made the capture belongs.
5537. _Chairman._] But must not the adjudication be on the coast of
Africa?--Not necessarily; Spanish vessels may be condemned at Havannah;
and in some cases when Portuguese vessels have been captured in the West
Indies, the slaves have been sent to Jamaica, and various other islands
in the West Indies; and when the vessel is sent over to Sierra Leone,
she comes over to us without the slaves; the slaves having been landed
in the first instance, so as to save them a second voyage across the
Atlantic; but with regard to vessels seized in the West Indies, which
are liable to condemnation under the Spanish treaty, the Havannah court
would condemn them, and the slaves would then be sent as Dr. Madden has
sent them, to one of our West India colonies.
5538. Do you conceive that foreign powers would entertain, or be
justified in entertaining, any objection to such a distribution?--No,
they would not entertain it, and I do not think that they would be
justified in entertaining it; on the contrary, it was the case in former
days that the vessels that were condemned by the court at Havannah had
their slaves located in the island of Cuba; but the planters cried out
against it very loudly; and it was at their suggestion and their request
that we sent away the negroes to our own West India colonies.
5539. By the treaties it is arranged that the captured negroes should be
planted within the colonies of the capturing party?--It is stipulated in
the seventh Article of the Portuguese treaty and the old Spanish treaty:
“As to the slaves, they shall receive from the mixed commission a
certificate of emancipation, and shall be delivered over to the
government on whose territory the commission which shall have so judged
them shall be established to be employed as servants or free labourers.”
The Act never contemplates any option whatever being exercised by the
persons seized, because it allows of their being drafted into the army
or navy, without any reference to their own will.
5540. Would the possible objection of foreign nations be stronger if we
engaged in a system of colonial emigration from the coast of Africa,
from other points than Sierra Leone?--I mentioned yesterday that we
could not go beyond the limits of British jurisdiction in procuring
emigrants, without appearing to give a sanction to those practices for
which we have been complaining against other nations of late years, both
the French and Dutch.
5541. In placing the emancipated slaves in islands where they would be
engaged in cultivating sugar, you would be in fact compelling the slave
trader to put down the slave trade itself in a great degree?--Yes; I
think that a great advantage, causing our efforts for the suppression of
the slave trade to operate in encouraging the cultivation of sugar in
our own colonies.
5542. In as far as it went, it would cheapen the very produce, the
dearness of which now constitutes the great inducement for carrying on
the slave trade?--Yes; the best way of putting down the slave trade is
our cultivating that produce in such a manner that it can compete with
slave-grown produce; and every thing that we do in adding to the
difficulty of carrying slaves across the Atlantic, adds to the price of
labour and the price of sugar in the slave-growing colonies.
5543. Every thing that we do with a view to encourage the lawful
produce, and to induce the negroes of Africa to get what they require in
a lawful way, diminishes the temptation to carry on the slave trade, and
co-operates with the cruizers in putting it down?--Certainly. There is a
passage with respect to enlisting negroes who are condemned by the
courts, without any reference to their own will; it occurs in the 22d
clause of the Act of 5 Geo. 4, c. 112: “It shall be lawful for His
Majesty, his heirs, and successors, and such officers, civil or
military, as shall, by any general or special order of the King in
Council, be from time to time appointed to receive, protect, and provide
for such persons as shall be so condemned, either to enter and enlist
the same, or any of them, into His Majesty’s land or sea service, as
soldiers, seamen, or marines, or to bind the same or any of them,
whether of full age or not, as apprentices, for any term not exceeding
seven years, to such person or persons, in such place or places, and
upon such terms and conditions, and subject to such regulations as to
His Majesty shall seem meet, and as shall by any general or special
Order of His Majesty in Council be in that behalf directed and
appointed; and any indenture of apprenticeship duly made and executed by
any person or persons to be for that purpose appointed by any such Order
in Council, for any term not exceeding seven years, shall be of the same
force and effect as if the party thereby bound as an apprentice had
himself or herself when of full age, upon good consideration, duly
executed the same.” It leaves no option whatever with the party bound.
5544. You think vessels could always be taken up to meet the arrival of
emancipated negroes?--The chartering of vessels would, I think, offer no
difficulty at Sierra Leone. There are, I believe, now, but there
certainly would be, in case such a plan was adopted, agents from the
different colonies which are anxious to obtain negroes, who would be
always ready to secure vessels for their transport across the Atlantic.
5545. Would not this be of advantage in opening a communication from the
West India islands with the coast of Africa, and encouraging the
intercourse between the two countries, and the free interchange of
products, to the advancement of the civilization of Sierra Leone, and
through it, of Africa?--In almost all cases where vessels have gone
across to the West Indies with recruits from Sierra Leone, the vessels
have gone on from the West Indies to England, taking a cargo from the
West Indies to England.
5546. Then it would only have the effect of increasing the advantageous
resort of vessels to Sierra Leone generally?--That would be one effect.
5547. Would it not have an effect on Sierra Leone, by giving an
advantageous freight to vessels frequenting it?--Yes, it would have that
effect.
5548. If it were considered desirable, would there be any difficulty in
giving to the negroes, after emancipation at Sierra Leone, the option of
remaining in the country or of going over to the West Indies?--I think
it would be undesirable to introduce a new practice where no option is
now given, and where the persons are not qualified immediately after
emancipation, to form any opinion whatever.
5549. Mr. _Forster_.] Do you think that it would be good policy to give
retired allowances to all public officers who have served a certain
number of years on the coast of Africa?--I think it would.
5550. The officers of the Mixed Commission Court, I believe, are the
only officers who enjoy that advantage?--I think the colonial chaplain
does, but by favour, not by right; there are no officers who serve under
colonial governments who are entitled to pensions; it is a rule of the
service, which is stated positively in their printed regulations.
5551. But considering the danger to health in that climate, you are of
opinion that it would be for the benefit of the service, and also
consistent with justice, that some allowance, in the shape of pension or
otherwise, should be made to officers serving there?--I think so. There
is one other point that I would beg to refer to, and that is rather
personal. It was stated by a witness in evidence on the 24th of May,
that there was a party in the colony of Sierra Leone who had great
influence in the Colonial Office; that this party was an individual;
that the suspicion of the witness, Colonel Findlay, did not apply to
more than one individual, and that that individual was myself; and that
he found, during the time that he was governor of the colony, that the
contents of despatches sent from the Colonial-office to Sierra Leone
were known in the colony by that party before they came to his hands,
and that he was consequently, and owing to that, impeded in carrying on
his government. Now I would only mention, with regard to this statement,
that I never received one single line all the time I was in the colony,
which was 11 years, from any person connected with the Colonial-office,
either directly or indirectly, on any subject whatever; and that I never
wrote one line to any person in the Colonial-office during that period,
except one letter of introduction, which I gave to an officer of the
31st regiment, who wanted to travel in Africa; I gave to this gentleman
a sort of certificate that he was a man of mild and conciliatory
manners; that was the only letter that I wrote to the Colonial-office,
and I never received one line upon any subject from any party in the
Colonial-office, not even in reply to the letter of introduction just
referred to.
5552. Mr. _Forster_.] You had no correspondence with the Colonial-office
during your residence in Africa, directly or indirectly?--None whatever,
or with any person connected with the Colonial-office.
5553. Mr. _W. Patten_.] Colonel Finlay, in his evidence, referred to a
party existing in the colony; are you aware of two distinct parties
existing in the colony?--I am aware of one party that existed in the
colony during the time that he was there, and that is a long time ago,
a party that opposed his government, because they thought he was a bad
Governor. I was one of that party certainly, while I was a merchant. As
soon as I became a government officer I abstained from any public
demonstration of feeling or opinion, but as a merchant, and before I
entered upon my public duties in the Mixed Commission Court, I certainly
took the means that every man is allowed to take to show that I did not
approve of his proceedings.
5554. But was that party a political party, or was the party connected
solely with the circumstances of the colony itself?--It was merely with
relation to the colony; they did not care at all about Whigs and Tories
out there; they had their colonial politics to attend to.
5555. Mr. _G. Wood_.] Did the discontent originate in political or
commercial views?--It originated in consequence of measures which were
considered oppressive upon individuals; it was upon local matters
altogether.
5556. Mr. _Forster_.] Do you consider that it originated in commercial
questions?--Certainly not.
5557. Were you a government officer at the time that the transaction
took place which led to Colonel Finlay’s recal?--I think I was; I think
the imprisonment of Mr. M‘Cormack occurred in 1832; I entered upon my
office in 1832; I think it was after I became a government officer.
After I became a judge I took no public part in opposition to any
government, however bad it might have been.
5558. You took no part in that transaction which led to Colonel Finlay’s
recal?--I took no public part; I may have given advice to my friends.
5559. Did not a trial arise out of those transactions, in which you were
a witness?--No; no trial at all occurred, and therefore I could not have
been a witness in any.
5560. _Chairman._] Have you read the remarks of Colonel Doherty on the
Report of Dr. Madden?--I have.
5560*. Do you concur in the views which he has taken of the points
alluded to?--In almost every particular.
5561. Is there any material point upon which you differ from him?--I
think only two: one, with respect to the Kroomen, whose residence in the
colony Colonel Doherty thought was injurious, and interfered with the
resident liberated Africans; I do not agree with him in that respect; I
think that they should not be interdicted at all from coming to Sierra
Leone, nor should their numbers be limited.
5562. You believe them to be advantageous to the colony?--Yes.
5563. And, by their example, to the liberated Africans themselves?--Yes,
I think even to them, as setting an example of industry, which they
would do well to imitate.
5564. Do you concur in opinion with Colonel Doherty as to the character
of the Kroomen; he speaks of the Kroomen as men never to be trusted,
never converted to Christianity, and likely, wherever they may be, to
exhibit a bad example in that particular; do you concur in that?--I
agree in opinion with Colonel Doherty, that they would not be converted
to Christianity. I do not think them dishonest when they are well
treated. I never heard of an instance of any liberated African being
converted to the Pagan opinions of the Kroomen; I believe such a thing
was never heard of.
5565. You believe that they are more difficult of conversion than other
Africans?--It is quite impossible, if I may say so of any body; there
never was an instance known of a Krooman being converted.
5566. To what do you attribute that peculiarity?--To their constant
return, as I mentioned yesterday, to their own country. They never think
of settling any where but in their own country. There is no instance of
a Krooman settling any where but in the Kroo country.
5567. Do they not settle at Fernando Po?--No; no more than they settle
in Sierra Leone.
5568. Mr. _G. Wood_.] Do they all retire to their own country in their
old age?--Yes. I have known a great many of them; indeed, I was very
partial to them, and had a good many in my employ. Governor Doherty
rather discouraged their employment, which I thought unwise, but that
was one slight point on which I disagreed with him.
5569. _Chairman._] Have you never heard of their being converted at Cape
Palmas by American missionaries?--No.
5570. Mr. _G. Wood_.] Are you aware of any persevering and continuous
efforts having ever been employed?--No, I cannot say that I am; but they
are thrown into our colony very much under the same circumstances that
the liberated Africans are, who become Christians, almost universally.
5571. _Chairman._] The liberated Africans are more settled?--Yes.
5572. And are therefore more exposed to the influence of those around
them?--Yes; but the Krooman also resides at Sierra Leone, and is never
away more than once in three or four years, but the periodical return to
his own country, and to his old habits, is I think a great cause why it
is so difficult to christianise him.
5573. Mr. _Wortley_.] Is there any mode of accounting for those
remarkable peculiarities in the Kroomen?--No; I think they are kept
distinct by the habit of the country, never allowing the women to leave
the country, and thus inducing the men constantly to return.
5574. Is there any distinction of race to be observed between them and
other tribes?--Yes, a most striking difference.
5575. Is there any reason to suppose their origin to have been different
from the origin of the rest of the inhabitants of Africa?--One would
suppose so from their being totally different in colour and habits.
5576. Mr. _G. Wood_.] Has their language been analysed with a view to
see whether that affords any indication of their being from a different
stock?--No. An opinion seems to have been expressed by Governor Doherty
against allowing Mahomedans to exercise their religion. I differ from
him there also; but I think, with those two exceptions, as far as I
recollect it, I agree with the remainder of the Report.
5577. Viscount _Courtenay_.] Bearing in mind the remarks which are made
in that Report upon the subject of schools, do you concur with him
generally in those remarks, or do you wish to add any thing?--I quite
concur with him, particularly with regard to the pay of the teachers; I
think the pay certainly is on too low a scale at present to secure the
services of good teachers.
5578. What is your opinion as to the practice which seems to exist of
separating the children of liberated Africans from the Creole
children?--I think any separation of that kind is undesirable.
5579. Is it apparently justified by any difference of natural talent
between them as a class?--No; but there is a very great difference
between the colony-born children and those who have been introduced into
the colony at a later age; those who have been born and bred in the
colony are very superior.
5580. Is the result of this separation that liberated African children
make much less progress in education generally than the other
children?--Yes; I should think that is the effect.
5581. Are they taught English?--Yes, they all speak English.
5582. Mr. _G. Wood_.] Does it give birth to any permanent feelings of
enmity between the two classes of children?--No.
5583. Mr. _W. Patten_.] I observe in one of the recent slave treaties,
which sets out the duties incumbent upon the master to whom negroes are
apprenticed, the first duty is, that the apprentice shall be maintained
in proportion to the employment done, and shall be supplied with such
clothes as are usual according to the custom of the colony; during your
residence in Sierra Leone was that attended to by the authorities
there?--I think that the whole system of apprenticeship there was bad;
it was required by the indentures, but the indentures were very
imperfectly fulfilled.
5584. There are six different classes to be attended to upon this point;
first, with regard to food; secondly, with regard to instruction in the
Christian religion; and according to that second article they must be
baptized before the expiration of the second year of apprenticeship; was
that at all looked to?--No, I do not think it was. In many cases you
could not carry it out, because the person who was apprenticed came
there not as a child, but grown up, and the clergyman would then take
upon himself to decide whether he was a fit subject for baptism or not.
5585. But the authorities in the colony did not see in any way that that
was done?--No.
5586. The next is, “that the apprentice should be vaccinated as soon as
possible after being delivered into the charge of the master, and that
in sickness he shall have proper medical advice and be treated with due
care and attention, and that in case of death, he shall be decently
buried at the master’s expense?”--There is no obligation of that kind
with regard to negroes in Sierra Leone; this is a treaty that does not
refer to Sierra Leone.
5587. This is in the treaty that was signed in 1839?--It did not come
into operation at the time I was in Sierra Leone; there is a treaty
somewhat similar; the last treaty with Spain, which requires that
attention shall be paid to emancipated negroes.
5588. You stated that you thought the apprenticeship system was very
bad?--Yes, I think the whole system of apprenticeship at Sierra Leone is
bad, and ought to be done away with.
5589. Mr. _G. Wood_.] What system would you substitute for it?--I would
not object to apprenticing children to artizans and to master tradesmen,
but I certainly would not apprentice them to other persons.
5590. _Chairman._] Your system of disposing of the liberated Africans in
the West Indies would, of course, get rid of the difficulty attending
upon the future?--Yes.
5591. Mr. _G. Wood_.] But supposing that system not to take place, what
system should you think preferable to the system of apprenticeship now
prevalent in Sierra Leone?--There can be no system introduced that would
not entail considerable expense upon the Government.
5592. _Chairman._] Would you throw the adults upon their own resources
at an earlier period than at present?--No; I think the time (six months)
for which the Government now support the adults is as short as it could
possibly be, and I do not think they could shorten that by one day.
5593. Mr. _G. Wood_.] You stated that no other system could be
substituted but what would be attended with considerable expense; do you
think it would be worth while to incur that expense?--I do not think the
present system should be continued, whatever the expense might be of
substituting another system for it.
5594. What system would you recommend as a substitute for it?--The
system that must be substituted for it, in case of the apprenticeship
being done away with, would be keeping all the children, as they now do
many of them, landed from slave vessels, in the schools till they are
old enough to be thrown upon their own resources.
5595. _Chairman._] Making them, in fact, boarding-schools?--There is a
boarding-school in many of the villages; in the villages the liberated
African children are lodged and fed by the manager, but that is only the
children who are not apprenticed.
5596. You would have all the children put into boarding-schools?--I see
no other way at present of disposing of them, if they are not
apprenticed.
5597. Mr. _G. Wood_.] Had the change of system that you alluded to
reference to an altered system with regard to the adults?--No; I would
not alter the system with regard to the adults, except, perhaps, by
extending the period two months, during which they should be maintained
by Government.
5598. That would be an extension from six months to eight months?--Yes;
at any rate, while the Government continues to use their services, as
they do at present, when they are employed for three months after their
arrival labouring upon Government works, and are prevented from
employing themselves upon farms.
5599. Mr. _Forster_.] In answer to question 5208, in your former
evidence, with respect to the system of landing the crews of captured
slavers, you said, “I have never known a cruizer act inhumanely. I heard
of one case the other day where people starved, but it was stated in
that case that it was owing to the refusal of the Portuguese factories
to support them.” Had you any opportunity at Sierra Leone of observing
the system pursued in this respect by our cruizers?--I have mentioned
that the only portion of the slave crews that we saw at Sierra Leone
were those who were sent up as witnesses.
5600. What case is this which you allude to as having heard of?--It was
a case I heard of in this room, mentioned by some gentleman connected
with the Bonny trade.
5601. Are you aware whether there are any Spanish or Portuguese
factories in Bonny?--I am aware that there were some slave factories
there formerly.
_Lunæ, 27º die Junii, 1842._