LORD VISCOUNT SANDON, IN THE CHAIR.

_Henry William Macaulay_, Esq. called in, and further examined.

5261. _Chairman._] Do you wish to make some remarks upon Dr. Madden’s

Report, page 14?--I do. He states that liberated Africans at the prize

sales at Sierra Leone “buy up the coppers, guns, and ship’s stores of

vessels for the British agents of the slave traders of the Sherboro’ and

Gallinas residing at Freetown, and thus they acquire a taste for this

illegal traffic.” Now he might have known, if he had made any inquiry at

Sierra Leone, that coppers are never sold at public auction, or any kind

of equipment for the slave trade. The subject is referred to by Colonel

Doherty in his reply to Dr. Madden’s Report. He gives a positive

contradiction to that statement, and I can confirm the contradiction.

5262. To what are the sales confined?--To the vessels and the goods

found on board, and to the tackle, apparel, and furniture; that is the

term used in the condemnation; but coppers, irons, and any other

articles that may be used again in the slave trade are always brought up

to the commission-office or warehouses. It is the interest of the Mixed

Commissions to gain every single copper they can; for, when broken up,

the coppers are sold, and supply funds from which the repairs of the

boat used in the service of the Mixed Commission are paid; that is, the

boat used to carry about the officers of the court in the harbour.

5263. Do you mean that the accommodation which the officers derive is

dependent upon that?--No; but they are constantly afloat. During the

time that a vessel is there the marshal is required to visit her three

times a day.

5264. But is the accommodation dependent upon its being derived from

this source?--No; whenever that copper fund is insufficient, the repairs

of the boat are paid out of the funds of which the foreign governments

pay a portion; but the money derived from the sale of the coppers is

appropriated to that purpose, and there is a regular account kept of the

sale of those coppers that are broken up. There never was an instance of

a copper being sold at public auction, or any equipment.

5265. Have you any reason to believe that this practice does lead to the

encouragement of the slave trade?--I have none whatever.

5266. Have you reason to believe that any of the parties, either

British or native, living at Freetown, are in any way sharers in the

proceeds of slave transactions?--They may sell goods to the slave

traders.

5267. Are they sharers in the proceeds of slave goods?--I believe not; I

cannot say for certain, because we have a shifting population of

Spaniards and Portuguese passing through the colony; but I should say no

resident whatever shares in such proceeds. It is a thing which one

cannot know, because of course such a transaction would be concealed if

it existed.

5268. Are you not aware of any British agents of the slave traders; are

you aware of the existence of agents of the Sherboro’ and of Gallinas

residing in Freetown?--Yes, of persons purchasing vessels on account of

slave traders, and I have no doubt purchasing goods also.

5269. What is the interest in the transaction which such persons

have?--A commission, I presume.

5270. Mr. _Forster_.] In your former evidence, you have mentioned a

merchant, of the name of Kidd, as acting as agent for the purchase of

prize vessels on behalf of the slave traders at the Gallinas; in your

opinion, was Mr. Kidd singular in that respect?--I do not recollect any

other person employed in that way during my time.

5271. Is it within your knowledge that merchants, who were members of

the Council of Government at Sierra Leone, have been engaged in similar

transactions?--Never, to my knowledge; but I would also mention, as Mr.

Kidd’s name has been spoken of, that, since the last meeting of the

Committee, I have met with his name accidentally, in connexion with

another transaction of the same kind, in the printed Parliamentary

Papers, and therefore I may refer to it. It is the case of a vessel sold

to a slave trader, a vessel called the Ligeira, which was captured a

second time, and brought into Sierra Leone a very short time after she

left the port; it appeared that in the meantime Mr. Kidd had carried her

from the colony and sold her to a slave trader, and she was captured

almost immediately afterwards. The case is reported at page 101 of Class

(A.) of the Slave Trade Papers, for 1839-40.

5272. _Chairman._] Would it not be desirable, if possible, that all the

vessels taken in the slave trade should be broken up?--Certainly, it

would be the best thing that could possibly be done; and in those cases

where it appeared to the court, during the latter part of the time that

I administered the mixed courts there, that a vessel could have been

condemned either as a Portuguese or a Spaniard, in all these cases we

condemned her as a Spaniard, in order that she might be cut up after her

condemnation; for the slave traders were seriously injured by being

deprived of the means of getting off the coast and getting slaves again.

5273. Mr. _W. Patten._] In the case of the breaking up of a vessel, do

the captors get any prize money?--Yes, they get a bounty on the tonnage

of that vessel; she is measured by the surveyors before being broken up,

in order to ascertain her tonnage by the new mode of measurement, and

upon that measurement the captors are paid the bounty in England.

5274. It is immaterial to the captors whether the vessel is broken up

or sold again, so far as their private interests are concerned?--Except

that the vessel sells whole for much more than she does when she is

broken up for fire-wood.

5275. Is the vessel valued only as fire-wood when broken up?--They get

only a moiety of the proceeds of the broken parts, in the other case

they get a moiety of a vessel fit for sea, with all the rigging perfect.

5276. You do not coincide with Dr. Madden, who recommends that a vessel

when captured should be put into the possession of the capturing officer

to be disposed of?--It would be quite impossible; the foreigners would

very justly complain of us if we left the vessel in charge of the

officer when once brought before the court. It appears by a paper, which

I have seen this morning only, that already they complain of irons and

other things, to condemn the vessel, being put on board after the

arrival of the vessel at Sierra Leone. Now, if during the time the

vessel was passing through the court, and during the time when the

marshal now has charge of her, in order to prevent any thing of that

kind happening, you left the vessel to the officer, who is interested in

putting three or four shackles on board, which is quite sufficient to

condemn the vessel, I think they would have just cause to complain.

5277. What Dr. Madden recommends is, that when the vessel has been

condemned it should be put at the disposal of the commanding officer on

the post, for the exclusive use of the service of the navy?--A small

number of the vessels condemned might perhaps be beneficially made use

of, and the new Act authorises the purchase of vessels when the

commanding officer may think it right to purchase them; but having had

that option, he of course only purchased such vessels as were required;

we had 60 odd vessels in 1839 before the court; what would the navy have

done with all those vessels?

5278. Mr. _Forster_.] Had many of those vessels cargoes on board?--Yes.

5279. _Chairman._] Should you think it would be advisable to sell the

vessels under bond that they should not be employed in the slave trade

for a certain period?--The law is now almost as stringent as any bond

could be.

5280. In what way?--Dr. Madden seems to suppose that vessels may be

fitted out in Sierra Leone, and may lie in British waters equipped for

the slave trade; but any one at Sierra Leone would have told him that no

vessel could possibly lie there equipped for the slave trade; the

authorities are so particular, that even in many cases vessels were

seized and brought before the court if they were supposed to have a few

gallons too much water in them. There is an exceeding jealousy on the

subject, as indeed appears by some of the papers which have been

presented.

5281. Mr. _Forster_.] Before what court is a vessel, taken in British

waters, equipped for the slave trade, brought; the Court of Admiralty or

the Court of Mixed Commission?--If she is prosecuted under the Act of

Parliament, she is prosecuted of course in the Vice-Admiralty Court.

5282. Is there not a rule on that subject, and are not all vessels

taken in British waters on suspicion of being engaged in the slave trade

prosecuted in the Admiralty Court?--No; it remains with the captor, if

there is a treaty which will reach the vessel, to prosecute her under

that treaty before the Mixed Commission Court, if she is a Spaniard or a

Portuguese, or before the Admiralty Court, for a breach of the municipal

law, because she violates both the treaty and the municipal law, and

therefore he has the choice of the one court or the other.

5283. In your last evidence you spoke of a vessel captured of the name

of Jack Wilding, at Accra, upon that ground; in which court was she

prosecuted?--Before the Mixed Commission Court, but the captor had the

option of prosecuting her before the Admiralty Court; the expenses are

so much less in our court, and the proceedings so much more rapid, that

he preferred bringing her before ours.

5284. Is not the evidence taken before the Mixed Commission Court

transmitted to England?--Yes; and it is published by the Foreign Office.

5285. But the evidence in trials before the Vice-Admiralty Court is

never made public?--It is not, and a very great disadvantage it is, for

this reason: our ability to condemn many of the vessels that were

condemned in 1839 depended very much upon evidence found on board

vessels brought before the court; this evidence conclusively proved the

employment in the slave trade of other vessels not then before us, which

were afterwards captured. Now, all evidence of that kind, which might be

made use of subsequently in the condemnation of other vessels, is

completely shut up from the public or from general knowledge, by the

proceedings before the Vice-Admiralty Court being never made public. In

the Mixed Commission Court papers can be invoked by the proctor which

have been filed in a particular case against another vessel that is

subsequently prosecuted.

5286. _Chairman._] Is there no advantage in the secrecy of such

papers?--None whatever.

5287. The proceedings before the Mixed Commission Court are public in

themselves, and are published afterwards?--The examinations are not

public, but strictly private in the first instance, but they are read in

open court at the trial of the vessel, and they are sent home to the

Foreign Office; an abstract of the evidence of every witness is given.

5288. The evidence taken before the Vice-Admiralty Court is not

published in any way?--No.

5289. Is it communicated to the Mixed Commission?--No.

5290. Mr. _Aldam_.] Are the proceedings of the Vice-Admiralty Court

there carried on in the same form as the proceedings of the Admiralty

Court here?--Yes, very much the same.

5291. With any greater degree of secrecy?--No, but here the public

papers publish them; we have no newspapers there to publish accounts of

the proceedings.

5292. _Chairman._] Would there be an advantage if the proceedings of the

Vice-Admiralty Court were always communicated to the Mixed

Commission?--Yes; and I recommended at the time when vessels began to

go so frequently to the Vice-Admiralty Court, in 1839, that we should be

informed of the papers filed in that court.

5293. Would there be any difficulty or objection to that?--There is no

establishment of clerks connected with the Vice-Admiralty Court to

supply copies at all, and it is not the custom of the judge of the

Vice-Admiralty Court to report his proceedings home.

5294. Mr. _Evans_.] Do you think that the Mixed Commission Court has

sufficient power for the objects for which it is instituted?--I think

that they have. They have been rather shy of exercising it sometimes,

but I believe that they do possess much more power than they ever

exercised.

5295. You have no improvement in the court to suggest?--No. There seemed

to be a deficiency of authority in the marshal a short time ago; but

that was supplied by a local Act, which gave him all the power which the

marshal of the Vice-Admiralty Court possesses.

5296. _Chairman._] It is stated by Dr. Madden, in page 14, that the new

interests which he supposes to be created in the minds of the British

residents, especially in the minds of the liberated negroes, “have a

very unfavourable influence upon them when employed in public

situations, or called upon to act as petty juries in our courts.” He

states, “if the case is one which involves the interest of a slave

dealer, no matter what his nation, the disposition of a jury thus

composed is invariably to give a verdict in favour of the slave trader,

unless the chief justice should take extraordinary pains to make them do

their duty honestly and impartially.” Do you know instances in which

this has operated?--No; I believe it never operated in any case.

5297. What are the cases in which slave dealers come before juries in

Sierra Leone?--Slave dealers have come before them, and been convicted

and executed; I never knew an instance of a man who ought to have been

convicted escaping.

5298. He mentions here an instance of a vessel, the Gollupchik, being

captured and being sold, and becoming the property of certain London

merchants, and being again sent out with a cargo of goods for the slave

trade factories of Gallinas, under British colours, and commanded by a

British subject. “The vessel,” he says, “was condemned by the Mixed

Court of Justice at Sierra Leone, and the English captain was committed

for trial at the ensuing assizes. The grand jury found a true bill

against this man on the clearest evidence, but the petty jury, all of

whom were persons of colour, returned an unanimous verdict of acquittal,

which was received by the coloured persons in the court, and by some

others of similar sentiments, with decided tokens of approbation.” Are

you acquainted with that case?--Not at all; without knowing the case it

would be impossible to say whether the jury were right or wrong; I have

known cases where they have discharged persons accused of slave dealing,

and where they were right. In the case referred to by Mr. Hartung of the

Echo, the jury thought that the prisoner was not liable to conviction;

but I never knew in my time any man who ought to have been convicted of

slave dealing escape.

5299. Generally speaking, did you find the coloured juries do their duty

in all cases?--Certainly; they do their duty very well.

5300. Mr. _W. Patten_.] Is it from any particular class that juries are

selected?--The grand juries are selected from the most respectable

inhabitants of Freetown, and the petty juries from shopkeepers and the

reputable class of traders.

5301. Viscount _Courtenay_.] Who selects them?--The sheriff.

5302. _Chairman._]--Has the office of chief justice been frequently

vacant?--It has been vacant several times since I was in the colony, and

an acting chief justice has been appointed.

5303. Who has acted in the interval?--During one interval, Mr. Melville,

who was Queen’s advocate at the time, and Mr. Carr, who was also Queen’s

advocate, and who is now chief justice, officiated on another occasion.

5304. Were they gentlemen who had a legal education?--Both of those

persons had; but there were two other instances in which the office was

held by men who had no legal education; once by a merchant, and a second

time by the collector of customs.

5305. Was that under the necessity of the case?--Yes.

5306. Mr. _Forster_.] How long did the collector of customs hold that

office?--A very long time; he held it from the death of Chief Justice

Rankin until the appointment of Mr. Carr as chief justice, which was

probably a year and a half after.

5307. Mr. _W. Patten_.] Do you know what year it was in?--From August

1839 till, I think, the end of 1840, or the beginning of 1841.

5308. Mr. _Forster_.] It is a part of the duty of the chief justice to

deliver the gaol at the Gambia, is it not?--Yes.

5309. Are you aware whether the acting chief justice visited the Gambia

for that purpose during the 18 months in question?--Certainly; while I

was there Mr. Hook visited it.

5310. Do you know how frequently, in each year, it is the duty of the

chief justice to deliver the gaol of the Gambia?--There is no time

appointed; but I consider it a great disadvantage both to the Gambia and

Sierra Leone, having only one chief justice for the two places.

5311. You are not aware whether the Gambia has not been left for a

period of 12 months without a gaol delivery?--No; I think it is possible

that it might be the case between the early part of 1838 and 1839, or

between the beginning of 1839 and the beginning of 1840. There is very

great difficulty in getting any person in a colony like that to fill the

situation of chief justice, I mean from among the residents in the

colony.

5312. Are you aware of the cause of the office having been vacant for

the period of 18 months?--No, not at all; I suppose that the Colonial

Government could not find a proper person to send out. One barrister who

was appointed was drowned before he reached Sierra Leone.

5313. You are not aware that the applications have generally been

extremely numerous for that office whenever it has become vacant?--No.

5314. Mr. _Aldam_.] What is the system of criminal law in force in the

colonies?--The law of England.

5315. Is it modified at all?--Very little; if it is modified, it is

modified by local Acts passed by the Governor and Council.

5316. Mr. _Evans_.] Do you think it a good thing to appoint men of

colour to such high offices as those of chief justice or Governor, in

any colony where many English gentlemen reside?--Certainly, if they are

fit for the situations; but at Sierra Leone there is no feeling whatever

except amongst one or two individuals, on the subject of colour; indeed

I believe that the most popular man at the present time, and almost

during the whole time when I was there, was a man of colour, and who was

afterwards Lieutenant-governor; that was Dr. Ferguson, a man, I believe,

universally beloved there.

5317. Mr. _Forster_.] Do you think that the natives have the same

confidence and respect for a person of that description, as for a white

officer?--I think so; at Sierra Leone, certainly.

5318. Mr. _Aldam_.] Practically, do you find a great number of men of

colour who are fit to fill high situations in the colony?--There are not

so many men of colour as white men fit to fill the high situations; but

some of the highest situations have been filled in my time by men of

colour, and well filled.

5319. _Mr. W. Patten_.] Have you any other observation which you wish to

make upon Dr. Madden’s Report?--At page 28, on “The result of the

efforts at present in use for the suppression of the slave trade,” Dr.

Madden mentions “The disappointment the captors experience at seeing all

their arduous efforts for hindering the slave trade factories from

receiving their supplies from the foreign vessels engaged in this trade

completely nullified by the proceedings of our own merchants and

commanders of merchant-vessels, who supply them with the identical goods

and stores which they capture the foreign vessels for conveying to the

coast.” Now I wish particularly, with reference to that statement, to

say, that foreign vessels are never captured for having _goods_ of any

description on board of them. There appears to have been some error

entertained as to the grounds on which the vessel called the Dos Amigos,

which has been mentioned before, was condemned. That vessel was

condemned at Sierra Leone, and in the report which the Commissioners

made to Government, they stated that the Dos Amigos had been allowed to

lie in Cape Coast Roads fully equipped for the slave trade. It seems to

have been supposed that our complaint was, that she was carrying _goods_

for the supply of the slave trade; but no vessel, either British or

foreign, has ever been condemned at Sierra Leone on account of the

description of goods that she was carrying.

5320. What is the object which you have in calling the attention of the

Committee to that statement; is it to deny that statement?--There is a

good deal of evidence in the papers before the Committee on the case of

the Dos Amigos. The impression seems to have been, that the complaint of

the mixed commission court at Sierra Leone against the Governor of Cape

Coast Castle, was, that he allowed a vessel to trade at Cape Coast,

which was afterwards captured there as a slave trader. Now the ground of

complaint was quite distinct, namely, that he allowed a vessel with

_equipments_ on board for the slave trade to be in a British harbour

with impunity; it had nothing to do with the goods whatever.

5321. _Chairman._] You do not believe that it would be lawful to seize

and condemn a foreign vessel for conveying to a slave trader goods and

stores that are not included in the equipment article?--I do not.

5322. Therefore the expression is incorrect that our commanders of

British cruizers must “experience disappointment at seeing all their

arduous efforts for hindering the slave trade factories from receiving

their supplies from the foreign vessels engaged in this trade completely

nullified by the proceedings of our own merchants and commanders of

merchant vessels who supply them with the identical goods and stores,

which they capture the foreign vessels for conveying to the coast”?--It

is impossible that they can feel disappointment about what never

happened.

5323. Mr. _W. Patten_.] Is it your opinion that the law can be altered

upon this subject for the better?--I think not; any alteration would, I

think, be for the worse. In the next paragraph Dr. Madden states, that

he considers it would be desirable that the men-of-war vessels on the

coast should only be employed two years. I do not think that any naval

officer would agree with him in that respect; it is not till they have

been two years on the coast that they become acquainted with the arts of

the slave dealers, and thoroughly efficient in the suppression of the

slave trade.

5324. In short, it requires considerable experience to ascertain the

best means of capturing the slavers?--Certainly; but on all questions

relating to service on the coast I would recommend that a naval officer

should be examined.

5325. _Chairman._] Dr. Madden suggests, “that instead of head-money, or

the bounty of 5_l._ paid for the capture of each slave, the pay of men

and officers should be doubled, and the promotion of the former advanced

in proportion to the time of service required for it on any other

station in a double ratio.” Are you of opinion that any inconvenience

arises from the present system of head-money?--I do not think any

inconvenience has been found to arise; it was supposed at one time, and

stated rather positively in the House of Lords, that such an effect had

been produced, but a refutation of the statement was given the same

year, for instead of full vessels being taken, there was not one out of

20 that was taken with slaves on board.

5326. You think that the remuneration to the officers is put upon the

best and fairest footing now?--I would not say that, because I think the

officers are not remunerated sufficiently for empty vessels at present;

the sum received for the capture of an empty vessel is so very small,

and the sum received for the capture of a full vessel so much larger,

that there is no comparison whatever between the two cases; and there is

more good done by the capture of an empty vessel, and the service is

just as arduous.

5327. Have you ever thought of any other system that could be

adopted?--I have suggested an alteration of the bounties on this scale.

It appeared that about three times as many vessels were captured under

the equipment treaties, as were formerly taken, when only vessels full

of slaves were allowed to be captured; and I thought that the

remuneration for an empty vessel should be so calculated, that it should

amount to about one-third of what the officer would receive if he took a

full vessel with the average number of slaves on board. There would be

no difficulty in making the calculation, and it would be only fair to

the officers to give them that advantage.

5328. No such alteration has been made?--No.

5329. Mr. _W. Patten_.] You would not diminish the head-money to

officers when they captured a vessel full of slaves?--No; it has been

diminished very greatly the last 12 years, from 10_l._ to 5_l._ a head.

5330. What would be the effect of putting all vessels on the same

footing, whether having slaves on board or being empty?--There would be

no difficulty.

5331. _Chairman._] Would it not be fairer to make the remuneration

independent of the casual circumstance of whether the vessel was full or

empty?--Yes; it would be taking away the advantage which the officers

now enjoy with full vessels, but I think it would be a fair thing.

5332. Mr. _Forster_.] Are officers entitled to the head-money on slaves

taken on shore?--No; the difficulty in that case is, that when taken on

shore they are British subjects, if they are taken in British territory,

and the British law will not acknowledge that they could be slaves. The

difficulty was found some time ago, when a naval officer went to Bulama

and captured several hundred slaves who were detained there by the

Portuguese; he proceeded in the Admiralty Court, but the judge said,

These men are not slaves, they are taken on British territory. The

British law will not allow that any person can be a slave on British

soil; so that the captor was deprived of his head-money.

5333. A considerable number was taken at the Gallinas by Captain

Denman?--Yes.

5334. Will Captain Denman be entitled to head-money upon those persons

so captured?--He has never received any thing for them, but I hope he

may; if there is any fund from which remuneration on the ordinary scale

can be granted, it would be desirable that such cases should be dealt

with in the same manner as they would be if brought under the terms of

the Act.

5335. Mr. _Evans_.] If the remuneration was on the tonnage of the

vessel, supposing it was on the same scale as it is now, would that be a

just way of taking it?--Yes; a remuneration on the tonnage, whether full

or empty, would be fair, but the scale should be very much raised; at

present it is miserably low.

5336. I am supposing that it was raised to the average of the present

remuneration for capturing full and empty vessels?--That would be an

improvement.

5337. Mr. _W. Patten_.] Is there not more difficulty in capturing a

vessel with slaves on board than in capturing an empty vessel?--There is

much less difficulty in capturing a vessel with slaves on board.

5338. Are not more exertions used when a vessel has slaves on

board?--They run away in both cases; but the vessel is impeded greatly

whilst she has her cargo of slaves on board, and there is more chance of

capture, and the chase is less likely to be long, than with an empty

vessel.

5339. _Chairman._] The security of condemnation is greater?--Yes.

5340. You stated that there was a difficulty in remunerating the

officers when slaves were taken on shore, on the ground of their being

considered as British subjects; does that apply to Gallinas?--No; the

question did not apply there, but to Bulama, because we claimed the

sovereignty of that island. There is no remuneration, under any Act of

Parliament, for slaves released under those circumstances which occurred

at the Gallinas.

5341. Might there not be some question altogether, whether the release

of slaves on shore was within the proper functions of a cruizer?--There

might, under some circumstances; but in the case referred to it was a

voluntary act on the part of the chief of the country releasing those

slaves; they were detained there by persons whom the chief considered as

his enemies, by whom he was kept in control, and he was relieved from

their control by the Wanderer. There was a positive application made by

the chief of the country.

5342. Then it was not, properly speaking, a duty imposed upon the

commander engaged upon that station?--No, it would be only a duty under

peculiar circumstances.

5343. Therefore such a practice would naturally not be contemplated by

any Act of Parliament?--No.

5344. Mr. _Forster_.] Do you consider the chiefs of the Gallinas opposed

to the slave trade?--No.

5345. How did they happen to apply for relief against the slave

dealers?--An illegal act had been committed by those chiefs on the

subjects of Sierra Leone, and when redress was demanded the excuse

offered by the chiefs was, that they were held in subjection by the

resident Spaniards there, and that they could not afford the relief

which was required by British subjects, or even prevent British subjects

being carried into slavery, in consequence of the control which was

exercised over them by the Spanish and Portuguese slave traders.

5346. Do you yourself believe that excuse to be true?--I believe that it

was stated; I have no means of judging of its truth.

5347. _Chairman._] It was a justification for the interference of

Captain Denman?--Exactly. By the papers presented to Parliament it

appeared that some women and children at Sierra Leone, as far as I

recollect the case, were taken down to the Gallinas, and were known to

be there, and Captain Denman was instructed by the Governor of Sierra

Leone to go in and demand their liberation, and also to remonstrate with

the chiefs for the offence which had been committed; and also to inquire

how it was that British men-of-war boats going into the river were

refused all supplies, were not allowed to water, and were even prevented

having intercourse with American and other vessels lying in the river.

The principal chief then complained of the treatment which he received

from the Spaniards and Portuguese, and he requested to be released from

their control, and Captain Denman complied with his request.

5348. Mr. _Aldam_.] Were there any British subjects found among the

slaves captured at the Gallinas?--None that I am aware of, except those

particular ones that Captain Denman demanded, and whom he recovered.

5349. _Chairman._] Do you believe that there are any instances of

kidnapping out of the territory of Sierra Leone?--Very few.

At page 34 of Dr. Madden’s Report, there is this passage: “The charges

made for the disposal of these effects,” that is, goods sold by public

auction, “the captors state, and I believe with truth, are extremely

heavy; and in many cases more than half the prize money that the captors

had reason to expect, is swallowed up in the charges made by the various

officers at Sierra Leone, employed in taking care, and ultimately

disposing of, the effects of the captured vessel. On the following cases

of slave-trade vessels sent in for adjudication to the Commission Courts

at Sierra Leone, by Captain Tucker, of Her Majesty’s ship Wolverine, the

charges here detailed were made.” Then follows the schedule; five out of

the nine vessels mentioned in that schedule were sold, while I was in

the court, and with respect to those five I obtained the heads of the

charges yesterday from the Foreign Office. The Vigilante is the first;

the charges were 99_l._ 1_s._ 4_d._, and in that case the sum paid to

the collector of customs for duty was 18_l._ In the Pampeiro, the

charges were 63_l._, the duty was 12_l._ In the Passos, the charges were

22_l._ 8_s._, and the proceeds very small; but in that case the vessel

was destroyed at Prince’s Island, and there were also slaves on board,

and the whole of those charges, for the vessel was only in port a few

days, consisted of the feeding of the slaves, and the duty on the goods

which were found on board, and the marshal’s expenses. The reason of the

small amount of proceeds was, that there was no vessel, and only a few

goods that were brought up in the man-of-war; only a few pieces of

cloth, and such things. In the case of the Firmeza, the charges were

1,014_l._ 7_s._ 5_d._, but of that sum the duty paid to the customs was

775_l._, and the translations were 18_l._; so that about 800_l._ was

paid by the marshal on those accounts out of 1,014_l._

5350. Mr. _W. Patten_.] The translations do not then appear to be of

that onerous nature to the captor, which Dr. Madden, in the previous

part of his statement, says that they are?--They are very heavy in some

cases: I have known them as high as 60_l._ and 70_l._ In the Emprendador

the expenses are 351_l._ 19_s._ 1_d._; of that sum 172_l._ was paid in

duty, and 33_l._ in translations, making 205_l._ out of 351_l._ Then the

other expenses are the five per cent. to the auctioneer, the marshal’s

charges for taking charge of the vessel, and boats and labourers landing

cargo, and also a premium of about six or six and-one-eighth per cent.

difference between the English money and the currency.

5351. Viscount _Courtenay_.] Are those fees fixed by a scale settled by

the court?--The fees were fixed by a regular scale, that has been drawn

up on the model of the schedule of fees paid in the Vice-Admiralty

Courts, which was approved of by Dr. Lushington and two other gentlemen

connected with the Admiralty Court in England, and which schedule was

sent out to all the Vice-Admiralty Courts of our colonies, as the rule

by which they were to be guided. In many cases our charges were less;

but in no case, I believe, were they more than directed in that

schedule.

5352. _Chairman._] Since those heavy charges which are alluded to by Dr.

Madden have been incurred, the duties, which are one principal source of

expense, have been modified according to your recommendation?--They

have.

5353. What would have been the result of the reduction in that case of

the Firmeza, where the duties appear to have been 775_l._?--The

reduction would have been very great indeed. Without knowing on what

articles the duty was imposed, I cannot say; but the duty was changed

from a fixed to an _ad valorem_ duty; and in the case of the tobacco and

spirits of that vessel, the reduction would have been very great;

probably it would have struck off 500_l._ at least of the 775_l._

5354. That evil, therefore, is met to a considerable degree?--The evil

is met as much as can be expected; indeed, I do not think that there is

any thing whatever now that the captors have to complain of.

5355. It cannot be expected that the goods should be sold for the

benefit of the captor, free of duty, in a colony where other articles

imported pay duty?--No, certainly not.

5356. Viscount _Courtenay_.] Is it in the power of the proctors to make

additional charges upon those parties?--The arrangement between the

proctor and the captor is left to themselves; the court attempted once

to interfere with the charges of the proctors, but they were instructed

that it was a matter which they had no control over.

5357. Is that settled by a certain rule of etiquette?--It is settled by

practice; there is a certain charge that is made for every vessel now,

whether she is troublesome or not; but it is a matter over which the

court can have no control whatever.

5358. Are the proctors Europeans?--There have seldom been more than

three or four at one time practising.

5359. _Chairman._] Are they men of education?--Yes; the Queen’s advocate

is generally one, and the one who gets the most practice; and there are

others who are practising attornies in the other courts, who act as

proctors in the Mixed Commission Court.

5360. Are they universally Europeans, educated in England?--I believe

every one has been educated in England, and is an European; there is one

of them that was born in the West Indies, I believe, but educated in

England.

5361. Mr. _Forster_.] Have the officers of the Mixed Commission the

patronage of any of the appointments on the spot?--Of all.

5362. _Chairman._] Do they appoint the proctor?--The proctor petitions

to be admitted; and latterly, for the last year or two that I was there,

I made them undergo an examination, for I found that one or two were

applying to be admitted as proctors of the court in order to escape

serving on juries, and I therefore made them submit to an examination on

the treaties, and on the decisions of the Mixed Courts, and it checked

the practice.

5363. At what time were those charges made which are specified in Dr.

Madden’s Report?--The five cases out of the nine that I have referred to

occurred in 1839, the others subsequently to my leaving the colony.

5364. When were those modifications made which would affect the

statement which Dr. Madden has made?--They came into effect after the

five cases occurred on which there are those high charges; they came

into effect in December, 1839.

5365. Previously to Dr. Madden’s visit to Sierra Leone?--Yes, some time

previously.

5366. Have you any further observations to make upon Dr. Madden’s

Report?--In page 35 is a passage to which I was referred at the last

examination: “The intervention of the whole present establishment of

marshals, collectors, surveyors, interpreters, harbour-masters, agents,

storekeepers, canoe-hirers, and victuallers of captured ships’ crews,

might be dispensed with without inconvenience to the public, and with

some advantage to the individuals who are interested in the disposal of

the effects.” A great many of those persons do not exist in connexion

with our court at all.

5367. Can you state what is the real establishment connected with the

adjudication of slave vessels?--There is one marshal; he is paid by

fees, on the principle of the schedule that was drawn up in England for

the regulation of the Vice-Admiralty Courts in the colonies, and which

are very low, I think almost too low; the collector we have nothing to

do with; he is the Queen’s officer: as regards the surveyors, we have

two surveyors in cases of vessels which are prosecuted for equipment to

examine the equipment of the vessel, and to report, and they get a fee

for that examination; in cases of vessels taken full of slaves no

surveyors are required; it is only in cases of vessels seized for

equipment.

5368. That is an officer absolutely necessary for the ascertainment of

the facts?--Yes, because we could not allow a man to give evidence in

his own case upon such a point as that.

5369. What is the fee?--I think the fee is two guineas a day during his

employment; and in order to obtain the services of a respectable man who

will go through the disagreeable duty which is imposed upon him in

examining a vessel equipped for the slave trade, overhauling her in

every part, and whose testimony can be positively relied upon, I do not

think that a smaller fee ought to be paid.

5370. Does the survey occupy more than one day?--If it occupies more

than a day, he gets another two guineas, but I do not recollect any case

of that kind.

5371. What is the interpreter?--There is one interpreter, who interprets

between the witness and the registrar when the witness speaks in a

foreign language, and I believe he gets 5_s._ on an examination; he is a

poor man; it is very trifling.

5372. Is the harbour-master an officer of the court?--No. Agents we have

none. There is no storekeeper; the marshal lands the goods, and under

some peculiar circumstances, where they have to be held over for sale,

they may be stored, but I think such a thing has hardly occurred in my

time.

5373. Canoe-hirers, who are those?--There are canoes employed to land

the cargo.

5374. That is a duty which must be discharged and paid for at the

ordinary rate in the colony?--Yes.

5375. “Victuallers of captured ships’ crews,” who are those?--We have no

such men; the marshal victuals the ship’s crew at the regular rate laid

down, 3_s._ for the officers and 2_s._ for the men; there are generally

only three persons in each case thus provided for.

5376. Is that any thing beyond the absolute expense necessary for the

object?--You cannot in a colony where food is so dear lodge and feed an

European in a respectable line of life for less than 3_s._ a day.

5377. Mr. _W. Patten_.] Would you recommend the uniting of any of those

offices together?--The only three officers we have are the marshal, the

surveyor, and the commissioner of appraisement and sale, who is not

mentioned here, and their offices cannot be united.

5378. _Chairman._] Dr. Madden recommended that “the effects of the

captured vessel, prior to adjudication should remain in them under the

charge of the captors”?--They always do remain in the vessel; Dr. Madden

mentions this as a change that ought to take place, but nobody ever

thought of landing a vessel’s goods before condemnation, because if the

vessel is restored she goes out with all the goods in her. He then says,

“On condemnation they should be delivered over by the captors to the

collector of the customs, and this part of his service be included in

the remuneration of his general duties.” The court could have no control

over the collector of the customs, and how he would perform the duty

more cheaply than the marshal I do not know; those goods must be landed

under the control of the court, and kept under the control of the court

till they are sold.

5379. What are the charges on the sale which are alluded to?--The

custom-house duties and the auction duty, and those already mentioned.

5380. The custom-house duties are the duties which you alluded to as

having been subsequently reduced?--Yes.

5381. Which did press upon the goods in proportion to their

quality?--Yes; Dr. Madden says in the last sentence, “I beg to be

understood as not meaning to attribute, in the slightest degree, to

these gentlemen the disadvantages of the system that is adopted for the

disposal of the effects of the condemned vessel. This system has grown

up to its present amount of abuse, I believe, without their sanction,

and I should think, from what I have seen of these gentlemen, it exists

without their approval.” It does not; if there had been any abuse I

should have been responsible for it, of course, during the time that I

was there; but I believe no abuse whatever existed which the court could

control. In the case of translations, we had no translator till we

applied to the Government, and indeed the necessity did not arise till

lately, because when you could only capture vessels full of slaves, you

did not require any translations; I believe there is no abuse whatever,

and it certainly is not without the sanction of the court, if it exists.

5382. Viscount _Courtenay_.] Is there any storehouse belonging to the

Vice-Admiralty Court, where goods, supposing them to be of a suspicious

character, if landed, are kept?--There is a storehouse connected with

the mixed commissions, where the coppers and shackles, and the iron

fittings for the open hatchways, are lodged.

5383. Under whose charge is that?--It is in the residence of the

registrar; the registrar is required to be a resident officer, on

account not only of the books and papers which he has constantly under

his charge, but on account of the equipments of condemned vessels, which

are also kept by him.

5384. It would be, therefore, very irregular that any of those

equipments should be kept in any place but under the custody of the

registrar?--Certainly.

5385. Supposing this to have been stated, that a number of leg-irons and

other things, which had been landed from a slave vessel condemned in the

Vice-Admiralty Court, had been deposited in a public shed on the wharf,

and that they had been neglected by the officer of the Vice-Admiralty

Court, whose duty it was to have put them in a place of safety; if that

was so, should you say that that was irregular and unusual?--It cannot

happen in our court; if such a thing were to happen, the marshal would

be immediately dismissed; but the thing never happens, because there is

a regular system of duty; but the Vice-Admiralty Court has no office, it

has no storekeeper, and no means of carrying on its duty efficiently.

5386. What would have been the regular course in such a case as that

mentioned in this paper?--I do not know what course the Vice-Admiralty

Court would pursue, but with us, equipment articles are landed and

carried up to the registrar. There were several rooms, when I left,

completely filled with these things, and occasionally, when the

Government requires coppers for the use of the Liberated African

Department, we hand them over to them, and they are supplied to vessels

carrying over recruits to the West Indies; but in no case do the coppers

from the condemned vessels go to anybody that we do not know will make a

good use of them.

5387. Is the same person that is marshal of the Mixed Commission Court

marshal of the Vice-Admiralty Court?--No; it is a rule that is laid down

very strictly, not to allow any sort of connexion between the two

courts, as it would only produce irregularity and confusion.

5388. _Chairman._] Have you any other observation to make upon Dr.

Madden’s Report?--In the last sentence of his Report he says, that

parties should not be allowed to become purchasers of slave ships, or

the equipments of condemned slavers, unless they “enter into a bond that

such ships or equipments shall not be employed in slave trade objects,

on pain of incurring the penalty of fine to the amount of double the

value of the property thus employed.” Now the Act of Parliament

positively requires, that if any equipments are on board a vessel, a

bond shall be given, and that no vessel shall be cleared out by the

custom-house unless a bond is given.

5389. Is there any thing in the present state of the law which makes it

illegal to sell a vessel bought at Sierra Leone immediately into the

hands of a person who shall employ her in the slave trade?--Nothing

whatever.

5390. Mr. _W. Patten_.] Is there not an Act of Parliament which does

prevent any body knowingly dealing with a slave dealer?--Yes, there is;

but the difficulty would be to prove the guilty knowledge of the fact,

that the man to whom the vessel is sold intended to employ that vessel

in the slave trade.

5391. Mr. _Forster_.] What Act of Parliament do you allude to when you

say that there is an Act which forbids persons selling a vessel or goods

to slave dealers?--The 5 Geo. 4, c. 113.

5392. Mr. _W. Patten_.] In that Act of Parliament, does the word

“knowingly” apply to knowledge of the fact that the parties are slave

dealers, or of the fact that the goods so sold are to be employed in the

slave trade?--To the latter. The second clause of that Act declares that

it shall not be lawful to ship, tranship, and so on, or to contract for

the shipping or transhipping to be employed in accomplishing any of the

objects or the contracts in relation to the objects, which objects and

contracts have hereinbefore been declared unlawful; but by the 7th and

10th clauses penalties are imposed only upon a party upon its being

shown that he “knowingly and wilfully” shipped and laded goods to be

employed in the slave trade.

5393. It does not apply to his knowledge of the fact of the man being a

dealer in slaves?--I am not aware that it does; a great deal may come

under the general term of “aiding and abetting” the slave trade; but in

all the penal clauses of that Act the words “knowingly and wilfully” are

introduced.

5394. How do you account for the governor of a British colony commencing

his proclamation with these words: “Whereas by the laws of Great

Britain, and more particularly by the provisions of the Act of

Parliament passed in the fifth year of the reign of his late Majesty

George the Fourth, all British subjects are prohibited in the most

express and positive terms, and under the most severe penalties, from

aiding, abetting, or trading with, directly or indirectly, all or any

vessels or vessel engaged, or about to be engaged, in the slave trade,

or fitted with that view and purpose”?--The prohibitory clauses of the

Act are very strong indeed; they would seem to comprehend every kind of

dealing with slave traders; but it is the penal clauses which would

prevent convictions.

5395. _Chairman._] If you could convict the party selling the vessel to

the slave dealer with a guilty knowledge of the purpose to which the

vessel was to be appropriated, you have in the Act of Parliament all

that can be required?--Yes.

5396. Mr. _W. Patten_.] Does the same observation apply to goods?--To

every part of the Act. I believe in every instance where prohibitions

are given in the Act the penal clauses referring to the prohibition

contain the words “knowingly and wilfully.”

5397. _Chairman._] Therefore those acts are all of them unlawful, but

the difficulty is in proving the guilt?--Yes. You may possibly prove the

guilty knowledge by letters found on board the vessel.

5398. If you could ascertain that any merchant at Sierra Leone sold

vessels or goods to a party, knowing that such vessel was to be employed

in the slave trade, he might be convicted under the Act of

Parliament?--Yes; he would be prosecuted and convicted under the 5th of

Geo. 4.

5399. Mr. _W. Patten_.] Should you imply that this was guilty knowledge,

that the vessel should be sold to a notorious slave dealer on any part

of the coast, who was perfectly known to have no legitimate traffic of

his own?--That is a legal question which would be decided in the common

law courts, whether a guilty knowledge might be implied from particular

circumstances, though it could not be proved directly.

5400. Mr. _Forster_.] You have given an opinion upon the construction of

the words “knowingly and wilfully” used in the Act of Parliament; upon

what authority have you given that opinion?--The Act cannot be

misunderstood; I think no person can read it without seeing the meaning

of it, whether lawyer or not.

5401. To sell goods or vessels to Pedro Blanco, for example, would that,

in your opinion, bring a party within the meaning of the Act?--No, not

unless you could prove that he sold them knowing that they were to be

applied to an unlawful purpose.

5402. _Chairman._] The difficulty, then, is not in understanding the

purpose and object of the Act, but in proving the offence?--Yes; the

difficulty is in proving the guilty knowledge, and that is the only

difficulty.

5403. Sir _T. D. Acland_.] Was not the principal design of that Act to

prevent persons from aiding in fitting up vessels for the direct and

notorious purpose of engaging in the slave trade, and for no other

purpose?--Yes, it was one object.

5404. Therefore, would not any person selling shackles, or any thing

else that was notoriously employed in procuring slaves, or in exchange

for slaves, be brought under the Act?--If you could prove that at the

time he made them he contemplated that they would be employed in the

slave trade, he would be brought within the purpose of the Act.

5405. If he sold shackles to vessels engaged in the slave trade?--I

should think he would be brought within it then, because the guilty

knowledge would be properly inferred in that case; but shackles may be

made in England, and kept on board merchant vessels to be employed on

the crew.

5406. Mr. _Forster_.] You do not think, then, that the intention of that

Act was to prevent British subjects and British capital from being

engaged in partnership, or having an interest in the slave trade itself,

and nothing beyond that?--Yes, I think the intention of the Act was to

prevent such engagements.

5407. Do you think that it goes beyond that?--I think that is all we

require, that they should have no connexion with the traffic.

5408. How would you bring the party within that Act who sold goods,

having no interest or partnership in the transaction to which they were

subsequently applied?--In that case I think the Act would not reach him.

5409. What becomes, then, of the guilty knowledge of which you have

spoken so much?--No guilty knowledge can be proved against the party in

the case you suppose.

5410. _Chairman._] But it may exist?--Yes, it may exist; but unless you

can prove it, the penalties of the Act would not reach him.

5411. Do you conceive that the act of selling a vessel or goods that may

be hereafter employed, or that shall be, to the knowledge of the person

selling them, employed in the slave trade, falls within the meaning of

the Act, unless that person is to have a share in the profits of the

transaction?--Yes, I believe it does include that; I think that it

forbids aiding and assisting in every way, even as servants, or employed

in boats.

5412. Mr. _Forster_.] Then you think that a British subject selling

goods to Pedro Blanco, or any other slave dealer, with the impression on

his mind, or, in fact, the conviction on his mind, that those goods

would be employed in the slave trade, would come within the meaning of

that Act?--Yes certainly; but the difficulty would be in the proof of

the guilty knowledge. Such an act as that is certainly intended to come

within the Act; not that I would recommend that those words, “knowingly

and wilfully,” should be taken out entirely; I think it might be a

dangerous thing to do so; but I am speaking of what, in my opinion, the

meaning of the Act is, namely, that it is absolutely necessary in every

case to prove the guilty knowledge, in order to bring the party accused

within the penalties of the Act.

5413. In what way would you prove the mental impression upon the man’s

mind?--There is the difficulty.

5414. Do you think that any British Act of Parliament would impose

penalties for the mental impression upon a man’s mind?--I have stated

that I am not prepared to say whether or not the words “knowingly and

wilfully” might be advantageously omitted from the Act, but a guilty

knowledge may be inferred from particular circumstances.

5415. Then you consider that that Act of Parliament is an Act against

constructive slave trading?--No.

5416. _Chairman._] You consider it to be an Act against aiding and

abetting the slave trade in as many ways as the Act of Parliament can

reach it?--Yes; there is no Act that I ever read that is so general and

comprehensive in its terms; but unfortunately it is limited, as it must

be limited, in its application.

5417. Mr. _Forster_.] Can you quote the authority of any British lawyer

for the opinions you have expressed with respect to the construction of

that Act?--Yes, I have heard opinions expressed on the subject from the

Bench at Sierra Leone repeatedly, and by educated lawyers.

5418. In the case of a British merchant selling goods to a person who

was known to have no other means of gaining his livelihood, except by

the slave trade, the party selling the goods would in your opinion be

liable to the penalties of that Act?--It is the same thing in that case;

you must prove guilty knowledge, direct or implied.

5419. In selling goods to a man who has no other means of gaining his

livelihood than by applying those goods for the purposes of the slave

trade, there can be no doubt of the guilty knowledge?--I should think

not; but if I were a juror I should have to satisfy my own conscience

that there was a guilty knowledge. I am no lawyer; this is only the

opinion of a private person.

5420. Can you conceive a stronger proof of guilty knowledge than such a

transaction as that would furnish?--I think I should decide that there

was a guilty knowledge, taking the case supposed, that the seller knew

there was no other way in which the purchaser would employ the goods

sold to him than in the slave trade; if I were a juror I think I should

find him guilty in that case under the Act of Parliament; I should

consider the guilty knowledge to be proved.

5421. _Chairman._] You appear to be in favour of the proposal for taking

bond from the person selling the vessel, that such vessel shall not be

employed within a certain period in the slave trade?--That they should

take bond that the vessel should not be immediately sold to a slave

dealer; but the difficulty would be in following the vessel through

successive transfers.

5422. Can you suggest any means of so framing that bond as to escape the

difficulty which pervades the enforcing the provisions of the existing

Act of Parliament, on account of the necessity of establishing guilty

knowledge?--I think I could to a certain extent. The case once came

before me at Sierra Leone; I was consulted by one of the officers of the

Mixed Commission Court on the subject of the sale of a vessel of his; he

knew perfectly well that if he had sold that vessel to a slave dealer,

we should immediately dismiss him from his situation, and he came to

consult me respecting the person who had offered to buy the vessel. He

had inquired about him, and there was some sort of suspicion, and I told

him that I could not allow him, as an officer of the court, to sell this

vessel to that person, unless he took bond to a sufficient amount that

the vessel should not be sold again to a slave dealer, so that if the

vessel, whilst in the possession of the person to whom he sold her,

should be captured, the bond should be considered as violated, and he

should be liable to the penalty. But I do not think you can carry the

restriction beyond the first purchaser: but if the vessel, whilst in the

hands of the first purchaser, should be seized for slave dealing, the

penalty of the bond might be enforced.

5423. But would you not find it difficult to make that effective, from

the facility that exists for the transfer of the vessel to other

parties?--Yes; I do not think the restriction could be carried beyond

the first purchaser.

5424. Would reaching the first purchaser be any great additional

difficulty in the way of employing the prize vessels in the slave

trade?--It would in Sierra Leone be a difficulty to some small extent;

because, where only one or two persons are engaged in purchasing vessels

to be afterwards sold to slave dealers, it is not likely that there

would be any intermediate person between the seller and the Spanish or

Portuguese purchaser at Gallinas, or any slave station in the

neighbourhood.

5425. Would it not be very easy to establish a system of third persons

acting as a medium between the slave dealer and the purchaser, who

should protect the purchaser at the prize sale from the penalties of

such a bond?--It might be done; but the difficulty would in that case

be, to get two men to endure the odium of such employment; the

difficulty would be doubled.

5426. Could not a vessel be sold to a subordinate party at Sherboro’ or

Gallinas, not the slave dealer, but the agent of the slave dealer, who

might be compelled immediately to hand over the vessel to the slave

dealer?--It might be done.

5427. Mr. _Forster_.] Would you propose, by bond or otherwise, to make

it illegal that the purchaser of a prize vessel at Sierra Leone should

sell that vessel, on her arrival in London, to the Spanish merchants

Messrs. Zulueta & Co.?--No; I would not certainly render it illegal.

5428. Then that being your opinion, in what way can you imagine any

restriction to be devised for the purpose of regulating the sales of the

vessels after they may be purchased at Sierra Leone?--I have mentioned

that the restriction could only last, in my opinion, whilst the vessel

remained in the hands of the second purchaser; that is, the person who

purchases her from the highest bidder at the auction; I do not think you

could follow her beyond that.

5429. Then you would prevent the actual purchaser at Sierra Leone from

selling the vessel to Messrs. Zulueta & Co. in London?--No, I would not.

5430. Then where is the value of the restriction you would impose?--The

value is this, and it is not of great value, that if that vessel, whilst

sailing under the name of Zulueta & Co. is captured and condemned as

being engaged in the slave trade, you will come upon the person who sold

that vessel to Zulueta & Co. for the amount of the bond.

5431. You think it would be just to make the first purchaser of the

vessel responsible for the subsequent employment of that vessel, after

he had sold her to Messrs. Zulueta & Co.?--Yes, as long as it remained

in the hands of Zulueta & Co.; and I would mention further, that an

advantage which I did not perceive before would result from it, that the

man who sells the vessel in the case supposed to Zulueta, would not be

very happy under such a sale, unless he got a security from Zulueta for

the amount of the bond, and in such a case, whenever doubtful characters

came forward as purchasers, the amount of the bond would be an addition

to the price paid for the vessel.

5432. When a prize vessel is brought into the public market in London,

why should this vessel be subject to regulations different from any

other vessel in the London market?--Because the vessel being purchased

at Sierra Leone, at one of our sales, would be likely to be a vessel

fitted for the slave trade, and for nothing else.

5433. But is it not well known that there are many vessels in the London

market equally well adapted for that purpose as many of those

vessels?--I think not.

5434. Sir _T. D. Acland_.] Do you not think that if a bond were given

under penalty of forfeiture, if in the course of a certain time, say

one, two, or three years, that vessel were detected as being engaged in

the slave trade, the party giving the bond would take very good care to

keep her out of that mischief?--Yes, I think he would.

5435. Would he not take very good care that the vessel should not get

into hands through which that risk could be brought upon himself?--He

would be interested in doing so.

5436. _Chairman._] Other parties would secure themselves upon each

successive transfer by successive bonds to the amount of their own

liability?--The amount of the bond might be more than the value of the

vessel considerably.

5437. Mr. _Forster_.] Then the result of that would be that there must

be a series of bonds running through all the subsequent sales of the

vessel?--Yes.

5438. Mr. _W. Patten_.] You have stated that in your opinion the

breaking up of all the vessels would be far preferable?--Yes, the

breaking up of all the vessels would be one of the best things that

could possibly be done.

5439. _Chairman._] What proportion of the vessels that have been taken

within your knowledge have been so broken up?--It is only since the

Spanish treaty came into operation in 1836 that they have been broken up

at all; since that time more than two-thirds of the vessels condemned

have been broken up.

5440. Sir _T. D. Acland_.] Would it be possible to fix the bond upon the

vessel itself?--No; I do not think it would.

5441. _Chairman._] You have seen a good deal of the effects of British

trade upon the coast of Africa, especially as connected with Sierra

Leone?--I cannot say that I have seen very much, but I have seen

something.

5442. You have seen that British manufactures are, to some extent at

least, employed as instruments of barter for slaves?--Yes.

5443. Indirectly through Brazil and Cuba, and from England, goods are

sold to persons who would use them in barter for slaves?--Yes.

5444. Therefore, to a certain extent, British trade gives facilities for

the slave trade?--Yes.

5445. Do you conceive that it would be possible, with advantage to the

cause of putting down the slave trade, to have any further restrictions

upon British trade on the coast of Africa: do you believe that it would

be advisable to prohibit absolutely dealing in lawful articles with

slavers or with slave factories?--I consider it to be undesirable to

impose any restrictions.

5446. Will you state your reasons?--I think that no restrictions

whatever could be drawn up applying to any description of goods that

might not materially interfere with the legitimate trade.

5447. And you believe that it would be a serious injury to the people of

Africa, and to the cause of civilization in Africa, if lawful trade were

interfered with and impeded?--I do; I would not have any restrictions

whatever upon the commercial intercourse of our vessels, to which only

of course our law would apply, with any port on the coast, whatever her

character was with regard to slave trading.

5448. You conceive that although some additional facility to the slave

trade may arise from the lawful traffic, on the balance much more good

accrues?--I think so. I think there are positive advantages in gaining

an entrance for our vessels to those ports where the slave trade is

carried on: that information of the character of the people and of their

mode of trade is obtained, and facilities offered to the squadron

cruizing on the coast and visiting those rivers; and also that at any

time, if, from the checks given to the slave trade by more stringent

cruizing in that part, the natives should be desirous of turning their

attention to lawful commerce, there are the means of doing it at once

ready to their hands. It might happen anywhere that legitimate trade,

from strict cruizing, would become a desirable one for the natives; but

they would not have the means of carrying it on if British vessels were

forbidden to enter those ports.

5449. Is it desirable that the natives should see a lawful trade offered

to them by the parties and nations who are now connected with the

unlawful traffic themselves?--I think it is.

5450. If you prohibited the access of English vessels and English trade

to the suspected ports, should you be able under any existing treaties,

or should you be likely to be able under any future treaties, to

prohibit the access to those ports of foreign vessels engaged in the

supply off lawful articles?--I do not think it could be done.

5451. Unless you could so prohibit the access of foreign vessels, you

could not in any way prevent the supply of those articles which are

requisite to be used in barter for slaves?--No.

5452. Then, on the whole, you would gain nothing in the way of

interruption to the slave trade, and you would lose many advantages for

the obstruction of the slave trade which you now possess by the free

access of English vessels even to the suspected ports?--That is my

opinion.

5453. Sir _T. D. Acland_.] May not the carrying on of legitimate

commerce, even with slave-dealing natives, be used as a means of

inducing them by negotiation to give up dealing in slaves?--It may be

so, certainly.

5454. _Mr. Forster_.] How did this merchant at Sierra Leone come to be

regarded with suspicion and mistrust who traded to the Gallinas, if, in

your opinion, such trade is beneficial for the civilization of Africa,

and the suppression of the slave trade?--I have not stated that exactly;

I would not impose any restrictions by law on the entrance of any

vessel, whether for lawful or unlawful purposes; but such freedom does

not release the merchant who sells his goods, knowing that they will be

employed for the slave trade, from the responsibility of doing so.

5455. You would prevent merchants and vessels frequenting such places as

the Gallinas, if it was to be inferred that they could not go there and

dispose of their goods without being subject to the charge of being

aiders and abettors in the slave trade?--I think that it is very

desirable that some regulations should be drawn up for the guidance of

the men-of-war on the coast, with regard to vessels engaged in traffic;

there appears to be a sort of impression now, that it is their duty to

interfere with all vessels trading with slave-trading ports, and it is

quite a misunderstanding on their part.

5456. Mr. _Aldam_.] If there is an establishment formed, where both the

lawful and the unlawful traffic is carried on in goods, do you think it

is desirable to prevent English vessels from trading to that

establishment?--I think it is undesirable.

5457. _Chairman._] It is suggested in Dr. Madden’s Report, that there

should be some further acts of treaty, with a view of developing the

resources of the colony?--I quite agree with Dr. Madden in that. In the

year 1836 I was before a Committee of the House of Commons, when my

evidence went particularly to that point. I thought that the policy of

the British Government in rejecting territory, when they had legally and

properly acquired it, and confining themselves entirely to the peninsula

of Sierra Leone, was very injurious.

5458. The peninsula of Sierra Leone does not afford adequate employment

and resources?--I think the employment and resources are sufficient for

the population at present, but the land is not so fertile as the land

that we then possessed, and which the Government at home required the

Government there to give up, and restore to the natives; also the

destruction of our sovereignty and property in that country will not

allow us to take cognizance of slave-dealing transactions occurring in

that territory.

5459. Mr. _Forster_.] Do you think it desirable to extend the limits of

the colony at Sierra Leone?--I do.

5460. Do you think that there would be any difficulty in effecting that

extension?--None whatever.

5461. Do you think that it would impose upon the British Government any

great expense or responsibility to carry that out?--I do not think it

would.

5462. _Chairman._] Would it be desirable for the trade of the colony, if

possible, to extend the limits of it, so as to give to a larger portion

of the produce of the soil the advantage of British growth in the

English markets?--I do not think advantage would be derived in that way;

because no produce that is now brought down to Sierra Leone, and passes

through Sierra Leone to England, is considered as foreign produce,

either teak wood, palm-oil, rice, or any thing else.

5463. Does teak, for instance, take its character from the port of

Sierra Leone?--Yes.

5464. Is it landed there?--Teak that is embarked in the river Sierra

Leone is put on board the vessel in British waters.

5465. Where?--At Banee Island Roads.

5466. What distance from Freetown is that?--About fifteen miles.

5467. Is it floated down so far, and then put on board at that

place?--Yes.

5468. Have you considered the question of emigration from the coast of

Africa to the West Indies?--I have.

5469. Will you state generally what opinion you have formed on it?--I

have formed a very favourable opinion of it. On the 15th of February

1841, at the desire of Lord John Russell, I expressed my views fully

upon this subject, in a communication which I then made to the Colonial

Office; I stated the classes from whom emigration might be expected,

and though this was before any scheme of emigration was carried into

effect, nothing has occurred since which has at all altered my opinion;

and indeed just what I then expected has happened. It was supposed that

there was a considerable desire on the part of the inhabitants to

emigrate; such a desire I stated did not exist; that a few liberated

Africans had been anxious to go to the country from which they had been

taken as slaves, to join their friends, and that many Maroons had been

anxious to go back to the West Indies, from which they had been taken,

and where they had friends; but that beyond that, there was no general

desire for emigration; that if such desire was requisite, it would be

necessary to create it. That there was no difficulty at any time thrown

in the way of persons anxious to leave the colony by the Governor and

Council there; that on the contrary, just before I left, an application

had been made by a party of liberated Africans to the Governor asking

him to send them back to Badagry, on the coast, and the Governor and

Council replied, that they might go if they pleased; but that the

Government would not be at any expense in sending them. A few did go and

returned, and since that time emigration has been going on to a

considerable extent to Badagry, and at present there are a large number

of liberated Africans there, who are finding their way across to the

Niger; and in a letter I received a few days ago from a gentleman at

Sierra Leone, he mentions that liberated Africans are still going to

Badagry, and that it is likely to become an important place. There were

a few Maroons, before emigration was encouraged by any agents from the

West Indies, who purchased a vessel at Sierra Leone and went over to

Jamaica, and their arrival was mentioned by Sir Charles Metcalfe, in one

of the despatches which was received before my letter was written. I

recommended that two persons should be selected from each of the

principal tribes of liberated Africans, and sent over to the West Indies

to report upon the prospects that were held out to emigrants by the

colonies there, and that their wives and families should be supported

during their absence, and also themselves paid a certain monthly

allowance until their return; and I have no doubt that if that plan had

been followed, a very large emigration from Sierra Leone would have

taken place, and I regret much that it was not done.

5470. Are there at Sierra Leone chiefs who exercise a considerable

influence over the liberated Africans?--Every tribe of liberated

Africans has some chief man who represents its interests on all

occasions, and who, in case of any difference with the Governor or other

persons, stands forward to represent it.

5471. Do they generally fall into location according to the tribes from

which they come?--No, they are mixed in the villages; the Governor pays

no attention to that; he locates successive importations of negroes

according to the wants of the place, and the land which is to be given

away, without reference to nation.

5472. But subsequently those belonging to the same tribe

co-operate?--They keep very much to their own nation.

5473. So that there are in the colony of Sierra Leone persons who

exercise an influence over different portions of the population,

according to the tribe that they come from?--Yes; I recommended that two

persons should be chosen from each of the principal tribes, and sent

over. And it appears from evidence that I heard given here the other

day, that it was the non-return of such persons from Trinidad which

prevented any further importation into that colony. I may perhaps be

allowed to read a part of the letter which I wrote to the Colonial

Office: “Evils of a serious nature may be anticipated if the collection

and embarkation of African emigrants be left in the hands of private

speculators, or even of the salaried agents of the different West India

colonies, some of whom, at least, would be more anxious to signalize

their zeal and success by the number of passengers whom they might ship,

than cautious and scrupulous as to the means by which they are procured.

Persons like the Maroons and liberated Africans mentioned above, who

purchase or hire their own vessel, and pay their own passage, may of

course go where they please, without question or obstruction, and they

are little likely to go wrong. But with regard to negroes from the

western coast of Africa, for whom a free passage will be found to the

West Indies, in order that they may help to supply the deficiency of

labourers so seriously felt there at present, I beg respectfully to

recommend that the shipment of all such emigrants be positively

restricted to the British settlements on the coast; that it there take

place only with the sanction of Government, under the direct control and

superintendence of the British emigration agent, and in exact conformity

with the regulations issued for the guidance of that officer, and that

it be confined to negroes who have been resident not less than 12 months

in a British colony. Beyond the limits of British jurisdiction there is

no part of this coast, except Liberia and the Kroo country, where the

West India agents could obtain emigrant labourers from any other class

than either the domestic slaves or the slaves prepared for sale to the

slave traders; and when it is considered that, from causes which I need

not now stop to explain, the price of a slave at the Gallinas, the

largest slave mart in Africa, and close to Sierra Leone, has latterly

been only 10 dollars a head, the necessity of confining the shipment of

emigrants to British territory will be sufficiently evident. I cannot

understand the reasons set forth by the Commissioners of Emigration as

the ground on which they recommend that the emigrants should have been

resident upwards of a twelvemonth in the colonies previous to their

embarkation.” The precaution is nevertheless highly important; it will

prevent the possibility of slaves from the territories which surround

our small colonies being brought into our settlements, by their masters,

merely for the purpose of being offered as emigrants to the West India

agents. A chief, or the representative of a chief, from the Bullom

shore, or from the Timany country, may very well supply the West Indian

agent at Sierra Leone with 40 or 50 emigrants, on receiving a bonus of

10 dollars for each. This would probably be looked upon as a bounty,

well bestowed for the advantage of procuring so many labourers and as a

small addition to the expenses attending their collection and transport;

but the supposed bounty would actually be the price and purchase-money

of so many slaves; the slaves would be presented to the Government

superintendent as free emigrants, and the payment of their

purchase-money would be an affair known only to the parties concerned in

it. With regard to liberated Africans (as long as they continue to be

located at Sierra Leone) and Kroomen, there would appear to be less

necessity for requiring that they should have been resident for a year

previous to embarkation; but I would still apply the same strict rule to

all, making however a year’s service on board a British man-of-war (in

the case of the Kroomen) equal to a year’s residence in a British

colony. Such strictness in this case can hardly be regarded as needless

scrupulosity. In dealing with this delicate question, I presume it will

be desired not only to satisfy ourselves that we have taken every

precaution for the prevention of abuse, and for the protection of the

negro emigrants, but to preserve our proceedings from the possibility of

exception, or even suspicion on the part of other powers; and cautiously

to avoid every practice, however innocent in itself, which may be

dexterously accepted as a sanction of abuses which we have been forward

to censure and oppose. I may here refer to the long correspondence which

took place between the Foreign Department and the Netherlands Government

on the subject of the African recruits enlisted at Elmina for service in

the Dutch East India possessions; and to the recent capture, by a

British man-of-war, of a French vessel employed, under the sanction of

her Government, in collecting negroes on the coast to form black troops

in the French colonies on the coast of Africa and in the West Indies. In

the first case it was evident that the bounty which was paid by the

Dutch Government for each recruit, to the person who produced him, was

actually the purchase-money of a slave, and our senior naval officer in

the Bights very properly gave notice to the Governor of Elmina, that any

vessel with such recruits on board, if fallen in with by our cruizers,

would be captured and sent to Sierra Leone for condemnation; and if

brought there I should certainly have condemned her; and in the second

case, the collection of recruits for the French Government, owing to its

being entrusted to private speculators and contractors, immediately

degenerated into open and undeniable slave dealing. “In the papers which

I have received, little reference is made to any other emigrants than

agricultural labourers, which is of course the class chiefly, if not

exclusively wanted; I allude to this circumstance, because there are

some classes at Sierra Leone which would supply no agricultural

labourers, but only mechanics, schoolmasters, traders, boatmen, &c. The

population of Sierra Leone, which in round numbers I take to be about

60,000, consists of about 1,200 Nova Scotia settlers, 1,200 Maroons,

50,000 liberated Africans, 7,600 Kroomen and strangers: 60,000. The Nova

Scotians, or settlers, as we generally term them, would yield no field

labourers, nor do I think that you would obtain any from the Maroons,

though a large number of the latter would be very glad to be re-conveyed

to their friends and relations at Jamaica, free of expense; a fair

supply of mechanics, &c., might however be obtained from both classes.

Of the liberated Africans, none of the more prosperous would, in my

opinion, be inclined to emigrate, and at any rate they would not add to

the number of the field labourers in the colonies. The people to whom I

refer are hawkers, traders, and mechanics, and are generally drawn

together and settled in Freetown and its neighbourhood, where they live

in comfort and even luxury. It is to the remaining portion of this

valuable body that we must principally look for emigrants, if we are to

obtain them at all at Sierra Leone; and, if prudence and caution be

used, I see no reason to doubt that a large number of them (quite as

many as it will be proper for the colonies where they are now located to

lose) may eventually be induced to remove to the West Indies. I would

beg to propose that the four or five principal tribes of liberated

Africans should be called upon, by means of influential persons of those

tribes resident in Freetown, to select each two men in whom they have

confidence; and those eight or ten delegates should be furnished with a

passage to the West Indies and back, free of expense, in order that they

may examine and ascertain for themselves the prospect which emigration

offers. They should be used well on the voyage, should receive 2_l._ a

month during their short absence, and their wives and families should be

supported (a very trifling expense) during the same period. Let this

plan be adopted and properly carried out, and I have no doubt whatever

that it will be completely successful. The Kroomen, amongst whom I

include the Fishmen, are so peculiar a race that they must always be

considered by themselves. Their national peculiarities are very

remarkable, and distinguish them almost as much from every other African

tribe as they do from the Europeans. But it will be only necessary to

notice those which affect them as emigrants. In the midst of a slaving

district, they are never enslaved, and they navigate and work on board

the Spanish and Portuguese slavers with perfect confidence and safety.

Every man-of-war on the station ships has a certain number of these

people according to her rating, and there are never less than 400 of

them embarked on board the different vessels of the squadron at any one

time. All the timber vessels, and indeed almost all other vessels on the

coast engage Kroomen to do the heavy work, which Europeans cannot

attempt with safety in that climate. They are to be met with wherever

work is to be had or wages are to be obtained; they labour with

astonishing energy, cheerfulness, and perseverance; and they are

distinguished by frugality and parsimony. At Sierra Leone we have a

shifting Kroo population of several hundreds, who are employed by the

merchant vessels, and at the factories up the rivers, and by the

merchants and other residents in Freetown; and the superior value of

their labour as compared with that of liberated Africans is proved by

the fact, that whilst the wages of a Krooman are from 9_d._ to 1_s._ per

day, those of a liberated African are only 4_d._ a day, and yet the

former is preferred. As agricultural labourers the Kroomen have never

yet been tried either at Sierra Leone or anywhere else that I am aware

of, but there is no doubt that, with their industry and intelligence,

they would easily and rapidly acquire the necessary practical skill.

From this description it may be supposed that the Kroo country is likely

to supply our most valuable emigrants for the West Indies; but two

objections may be made by the Colonial Governments to receiving Kroomen

at all: one is, that they will not permanently settle anywhere but in

their own country; and the other is, that they never carry their

countrywomen away from home with them. Sierra Leone is the great mart

for Kroo labour, and has been much frequented by that people during the

last 30 years, and yet a Kroo woman has never been seen amongst us. The

Krooman who leaves his own country in search of employment, will always

return home at the end of three or four years, with the goods, the

produce of his labour, which he has collected during his absence; part

of the property thus acquired he presents to the king or head man of the

town or district to which he belongs, and with the remainder he builds a

house, procures a wife, clears a farm, and supports himself for about a

year or 18 months. His holiday being over, he leaves his house, farm,

and property to be attended to by his wife and his relations, and

absents himself from home for another term of three or four years, at

the expiration of which time he again returns with the fruits of his

exertion to make a new present to his chief, to obtain another wife, and

to add to the dimensions of his farm. This process is repeated several

times, until the wanderer has acquired what is by him considered

competent wealth, when he settles in his own country for the remainder

of his life. The Kroomen are too valuable a class of labourers to be

lightly thrown out of the scheme of emigration. If means of transport

are provided, their numbers in the West Indies may eventually be kept up

to several thousands. In that case the requirement respecting women must

be dispensed with in their favour, and they must be assured that at

least one opportunity will be afforded to them during every year of

returning to their own country; nor would the people object to pay a

limited sum (say eight to ten dollars) for their passage, finding

themselves in provisions, as they do with us. Should it be deemed

advisable to secure the services of these people, I would beg to propose

that the same plan should be pursued with respect to them as I have

recommended in the case of the liberated Africans, and that two head

Kroomen and two head Fishmen should be selected to accompany the other

African delegates from Sierra Leone, enjoying all the advantages of free

passage and monthly pay conceded to their fellow-passengers. The

Kroomen, however, unlike their companions, would leave behind them in

the colony no wives and families to be supported during their absence.

In Liberia there are several thousands of black American emigrants, some

of whom are very poorly off, and might be disposed to remove to the West

Indies; but it would be matter for consideration, whether it would be

advisable, for the sake of the small supply which could be thus

obtained, to depart from the rule of confining the shipment of negro

emigrants to the British settlements on the coast, more especially as

the distance between Sierra Leone and Liberia is so short, that many of

the disappointed colonists from the latter have lately established

themselves at Freetown. But the number of emigrants which can be

obtained from all these sources, indeed the number of free labourers on

the western coast of Africa compared with the great demand for labour in

Trinidad or Demerara is so insignificant, that I would earnestly

recommend a plan for the location and settlement in the West Indies of

all slaves hereafter embarked by decrees of the various courts of mixed

commission and mixed courts of justice, established under treaties

between Great Britain and foreign powers for the suppression of the

slave trade. This, however, is a subject not embraced in the papers

which have been submitted for my perusal.” Then follow the rules for the

emigration agent.

[Adjourned till To-morrow, at One o’clock.

_Mercurii, 15º die Junii, 1842._