The testimony of Bell P. Herndon was taken at 2:05 p.m., on July 28,
1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Mr. Arlen
Specter, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.
Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that this is a deposition proceeding
of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.
Present today is Mr. Bell P. Herndon, a special agent of the Federal
Bureau of Investigation, who has been asked to testify concerning the
results of the polygraph examination administered to Jack Ruby in
Dallas, Tex., on July 18, 1964.
With that preliminary statement of purpose, would you rise, please, Mr.
Herndon, and raise your right hand?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you shall give in this
deposition proceeding before the President’s Commission on the
Assassination of President Kennedy will be the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. HERNDON. I do.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please?
Mr. HERNDON. My name is Bell P. Herndon.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession or occupation?
Mr. HERNDON. I am a special agent of the Federal Bureau of
Investigation.
Mr. SPECTER. How long have you been so occupied?
Mr. HERNDON. I have been employed as a special agent going on 14 years.
Mr. SPECTER. What specialty, if any, do you have with the Federal
Bureau of Investigation?
Mr. HERNDON. I am presently the polygraph supervisor and polygraph
examiner assigned to the FBI laboratory, Washington, D.C.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline briefly your educational background,
please?
Mr. HERNDON. I received a bachelor of science degree from St. Lawrence
University in 1947.
I have been in the FBI since 1951 and have been employed as a special
agent primarily in field investigator work for approximately 10 years.
The past 4 years I have been fully assigned to the laboratory in the
capacity of a polygraph supervisor.
Mr. SPECTER. What specialized training, if any, do you receive in order
to qualify for being a polygraph operator?
Mr. HERNDON. Upon assignment to the FBI laboratory I underwent
an intensive 6-months training program under a doctor, Ph. D. in
psychology, who was a special agent polygraph examiner assigned to the
New York office.
I also received considerable training from other special agents in the
FBI laboratory who had graduate work in physiology and law.
After completion of 6 months’ intensive training, I was declared
qualified to handle polygraph examinations for the Federal Bureau of
Investigation.
Mr. SPECTER. And approximately how many polygraphic examinations
have you conducted during your service with the Federal Bureau of
Investigation?
Mr. HERNDON. I have either given, supervised, or reviewed several
thousand polygraph examinations.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline briefly just what the polygraph machine
is, and how it functions?
Mr. HERNDON. The polygraph instrument, of course, is commonly known
to the public as the lie detector. In fact it is not such a device.
The polygraph is simply an instrument which is designed to record
certain physiological responses under stimuli in a carefully controlled
interrogation. These physiological responses may accompany and indicate
deception. It is used primarily as an investigative aid by the Federal
Bureau of Investigation.
Mr. SPECTER. From what does the machine derive its name “polygraph”?
Mr. HERNDON. The name polygraph is derived from the Greek derivative,
poly meaning many, graph meaning writings and the actual polygraph
chart will portray several writings indicating physiological responses
of the examinee.
Mr. SPECTER. How many writings are there specifically which are made by
the polygraph instrument?
Mr. HERNDON. On the current polygraph used throughout the field the
instrument records three different physiological responses.
Mr. SPECTER. And would you identify those three physiological
responses, please?
Mr. HERNDON. The first physiological response recorded on the polygraph
pertains to the pneumograph tracing, pneumo pertains to the respiratory
pattern of an individual. In other words, it records the inhalation and
exhalation tracings of the person as he is normally breathing. It also
records what we call the respiratory ratio, the ratio of the inhalation
stroke to the exhalation stroke.
The second component utilized in the polygraph technique today is
generally called the psychogalvanic skin response.
Mr. SPECTER. Spell that, please.
Mr. HERNDON. Actually, it is referred to as the galvanic skin response,
galvanic. This particular response is obtained by electrodes placed on
the examinee’s hands or fingers, a small minute amount of electrical
current is passed through the skin, and the galvanometer will record
the minute changes in the electrical skin resistance of the skin or the
electrodermal response.
The third component utilized in polygraph technique is the cardiograph.
This particular component measures the relative blood pressure changes
and also the changes in the heart rate or pulse beat. The tracing is
obtained by a pneumatic cuff being placed on the arm, usually the
left arm, a certain amount of pressure applied so that the mean blood
pressure can be obtained and the tracing is recorded on a moving sheet
of chart paper.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline briefly the development of the polygraph
instrument, please?
Mr. HERNDON. Over the years psychologists and physiologists have been
aware of the fact that many people seem to respond physiologically
under emotional stress, one, of course, being under a stress of a
deception.
The more serious lie a person tells, quite frequently he is likely to
have a physiological response. Over the years people who have dealt
with interrogation techniques have frequently noticed that when a
person is deceiving, that they visibly respond emotionally. In other
words, they may not look a person right in the eye.
There may be a choking up of the throat. They may become flushed in the
face. Based on this general common sense observation, law enforcement
individuals who had psychological and physiological training decided in
about 1920 that if they could obtain an instrument to record certain
physiological, changes with regard to suspects in criminal cases, they
might be in a better position to perhaps determine whether or not the
person has been telling the truth.
They developed an instrument which was eventually called the polygraph
or so-called lie detector.
Through the years it has been used by law enforcement. It is primarily
used, as I said before, as an investigative aid, and it has been
helpful in that it can provide investigative direction to people in the
law enforcement profession.
Mr. SPECTER. What is its level of reliability in indicating patterns of
deception?
Mr. HERNDON. There has been no conclusive scientific objective study in
that regard, and as of today there are no valid statistics with regard
to its actual objective reliability.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your opinion as to its level of reliability in
measuring patterns of deception in a normal person?
Mr. HERNDON. Well, the polygraph, of course, measures certain
physiological responses which have to be interpreted. It must be
clearly understood that the physiological responses that are portrayed
on a polygraph chart can often be caused by things other than
deception, such as fear, anxiety, nervousness, dislike, and many other
of these emotions.
A polygraph examiner has to be extremely skilled and conservative in
his estimation as to whether or not it is deception. I cannot give you
any clear-cut personal opinion as to the validity of the technique with
regard to its percentage of reliability.
Mr. SPECTER. Aside from an opinion as to percentage of reliability,
what is your opinion in a very general way as to the ability of a
well-trained, conservative examiner to detect a pattern of deception in
a normal person under appropriate standards of administration?
Mr. HERNDON. Based on a hypothesis of all factors you mentioned, a
polygraph examiner under ideal conditions can generally interrogate
a person, and if he has been able to obtain what he considers good
control questions, he then may be able to come up with a conclusion
which would indicate whether or not a person is deceiving or not.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe what you mean by a control question?
Mr. HERNDON. The control question is the question on which you would
expect the examinee to probably lie, or have some emotional response
which can be used for comparative purposes with regard to the relevant
questions of the interrogation.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you give an example of what you mean by control
question, then?
Mr. HERNDON. Yes, I can.
In a bank embezzlement case, a good control question with an individual
might be, “Have you ever stolen anything in your life that didn’t
belong to you?”
In that regard it is expected the person would probably either hedge or
deceive, and, therefore, the examiner can usually have an indication
of whether or not this person will respond to a deception based on the
examinee’s response to that question.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Herndon, what is the policy of the Federal Bureau of
Investigation on the use of the polygraph examination?
Mr. HERNDON. The FBI uses the polygraph technique purely as an
investigative aid, in very carefully selected cases.
As I have said before, we feel that the polygraph technique is not
sufficiently precise to permit absolute judgments of deception or
truth without qualifications. The polygraph technique has a number of
limitations which must be considered by the examiner. The instrument,
again, I said before, is designed to record under proper stimuli
emotional responses in the form of physiological variations which may
accompany and indicate deception.
Mr. SPECTER. What effect, if any, would there be on a polygraph
examination if the subject were a psychotic depressive with respect to
mental condition?
Mr. HERNDON. In that particular case, the FBI ordinarily would not
render a polygraph examination to any individual in which there was any
indication or evidence that he was psychotic.
Mr. SPECTER. What validity would a polygraph examination have on a
person who was a psychotic depressive with respect to the mental
condition?
Mr. HERNDON. The examination would be completely inconclusive or
invalid in view of the fact that a psychotic individual is divorced
from reality, and the tracings on his polygrams could not be logically
interpreted.
Mr. SPECTER. Then is it necessary that a person be in touch with
reality and understand the nature of the questions and answers in order
for a polygraph examination to have any validity?
Mr. HERNDON. Yes, it is.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to conduct a polygraph examination
on Jack Ruby?
Mr. HERNDON. Yes, I did, on July 18, 1964.
Mr. SPECTER. And at whose request was that polygraph examination
conducted?
Mr. HERNDON. The examination of Jack Ruby was conducted at the specific
request of the President’s Commission.
It is my understanding that Mr. Ruby specifically requested such a
polygraph examination to the Commission in a prior interview he had
with the Chief Justice.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you present during the course of the entire session
when Mr. Ruby was questioned, both before, during and after the actual
administration of the polygraph examination?
Mr. HERNDON. Yes, I was.
Mr. SPECTER. And before the test was actually administered, did
anyone ask Mr. Ruby whether he wished to have a polygraph examination
conducted on him?
Mr. HERNDON. Yes. I believe Mr. Ruby was asked that question by the
Commission. I am not sure of whether the defense attorney specifically
asked him whether or not he wanted to take it, but I know that they
were definitely against him taking the polygraph examination.
In my initial discussion with Mr. Ruby, I again also asked him to
sign a voluntary waiver of consent to insure that he was freely and
voluntarily taking the polygraph examination.
Mr. SPECTER. And what was Mr. Ruby’s response on the question of
whether he wanted to take the polygraph examination?
Mr. HERNDON. He clearly implied that he desired to proceed and take the
polygraph examination.
Mr. SPECTER. Was it an implication or was it a direct statement on his
part that he wanted the examination?
Mr. HERNDON. It was a direct statement, and he signed the waiver of
consent.
Mr. SPECTER. Where was the polygraph examination conducted?
Mr. HERNDON. The polygraph examination of Jack Ruby was conducted in
one of the rooms in the Dallas county jail.
Mr. SPECTER. Who was present at the time the examination was conducted?
Mr. HERNDON. Present during the examination were Mr. Arlen Specter of
the President’s Commission, myself, representing the FBI, Special Agent
W. James Wood, of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Dallas, Tex.,
office, Mr. Ruby’s attorneys were present, one being chief counsel Mr.
Clayton Fowler, another attorney was present by the name of Mr. Joe
Tonahill. Also present during the examination was a representative of
the Dallas district attorney’s office, a Mr. William Alexander.
Mr. SPECTER. Was he present during the time of the examination or
during the preliminary discussion on questions only?
Mr. HERNDON. He was present during the entire examination except for
that phase in which Mr. Ruby was actually responding to my questions
while he was actually on the instrument.
Mr. SPECTER. And who else was present?
Mr. HERNDON. Also present during the entire polygraph proceedings was
a Dr. William Beavers, I believe, of Dallas, Tex., and a chief jailer,
I believe his name was E. L. Holman. There was a court reporter, Odell
Oliver, also present during the proceedings.
Also present during the preliminaries of the proceedings was a
gentleman from the Dallas sheriff’s office by the name of Mr. Sweat,
who indicated that he was a polygraph examiner.
Mr. SPECTER. Was a request made that he not be present during the
course of the examination?
Mr. HERNDON. After consultation with Mr. Specter and myself, I believe
Mr. Specter made arrangement with the sheriff, Mr. Decker, that Mr.
Sweat not be present during the polygraph examination and further
proceedings.
Mr. SPECTER. What was the physical arrangement of the room with
respect to Mr. Ruby’s positioning during the time that the polygraph
examination was actually administered?
Mr. HERNDON. I attempted to arrange Mr. Ruby in such a position
that there would be a minimum of distraction and disturbance to him
during the actual polygraph examination. He was placed rather closely
against a wall where there were no pictures or no distracting marks
or implementations on the wall. I also tried to place him in such a
position so that he could not readily see anyone else who was in the
room during the proceedings.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you successful in placing him in a position where he
could not see anyone else while the test was being administered?
Mr. HERNDON. I believe he was in a position that only his secondary
vision from the sides would possibly give him the impression that
somebody was in the room.
Mr. SPECTER. What effect, if any, did the presence of the other people
in the room have on the administration of the test, in your opinion?
Mr. HERNDON. Normally during a polygraph examination the only ones
in the room are the examinee and the examiner, and during Bureau
proceedings we usually have another agent in the room out of sight
that takes notes. It is considered an undesirable factor to have many
people present in the room during a polygraph examination, particularly
if these people are involved in any way in the case, such as the
defendant’s attorney or someone who has a personal and keen knowledge
in the proceedings. In this particular instance, it appeared to me that
Mr. Ruby divorced the presence of these people from his mind during his
response to the questions. However, it should be considered a factor
which is one that could tend to negate a valid conclusion with regard
to chart interpretation.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you taken that factor, then, into account in your
evaluation of chart interpretation?
Mr. HERNDON. Yes; I have.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Herndon, did you hear the testimony of Dr. William
Beavers which was taken immediately following the administration of the
polygraph examination commencing at 9:10 p.m., on July 18, 1964?
Mr. HERNDON. I heard his testimony.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you hear him testify in a conclusory fashion that:
“These symptoms,” referring to symptoms which he had described, “plus
the depression which was evident caused me to diagnose a psychotic
depressive reaction”? Did you hear him make that diagnosis?
Mr. HERNDON. Yes; I did.
Mr. SPECTER. If that diagnosis is accurate, would there be any validity
in a polygraph examination of Mr. Ruby?
Mr. HERNDON. There would be no validity to the polygraph examination,
and no significance should be placed upon the polygraph charts.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you further hear Dr. Beavers testify as follows:
“In the greater proportion of the time that he,” referring to Ruby,
“answered the questions, I felt that he was aware of the questions and
that he understood them, and that he was giving answers based on an
appreciation of reality.”
Mr. HERNDON. I heard him so testify.
Mr. SPECTER. If Mr. Ruby’s mental condition was accurately
characterized in that latter statement, then would the polygraph
examination have validity in accordance with the limitations which you
heretofore described?
Mr. HERNDON. Well, based on the hypothesis that Ruby was mentally
competent and sound, the charts could be interpreted, and if those
conditions are fact, the charts could be interpreted to indicate that
there was no area of deception present with regard to his response to
the relevant questions during the polygraph examination. However, I
have no specific information to my knowledge which would resolve the
hypothesis or the suggestion made by Dr. Beavers that Ruby was in fact
rational and fully competent at that time, and, therefore, I would
still have to render an inconclusive opinion with regard to the charts.
Mr. SPECTER. When you say in your last answer if Ruby was competent
or sane, by that do you mean the characteristics which Dr. Beavers
described, stated specifically, that he understood the questions and
the answers, that he was giving answers based on appreciation of
reality?
Mr. HERNDON. I qualified my answer to the previous question because of
the fact, if you will recall, Dr. Beavers also testified later that it
is entirely possible for a person who is psychotic to still appear to
be rational and to be fully aware of reality. This particular testimony
is with regard to specific questions presented to Dr. Beavers by Mr.
Tonahill, and it is a known fact that certain psychotics at times can
appear completely rational and appear to be competent.
Mr. SPECTER. The distinction on that, though, would be whether or not
they are, in fact, in touch with reality, understanding the nature of
the questions and answers, or whether they only appear to be in touch
with reality? Would that not be the key distinction that Dr. Beavers is
making in his testimony?
Mr. HERNDON. I am not sure I follow you there, Mr. Specter. Will you
repeat that again?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes. You say that Dr. Beavers said that many psychotics
appear to understand the questions or appear to be in touch with
reality.
Mr. HERNDON. He said it is possible, I believe, that a psychotic could
appear to be rational and have a good memory, but still be a psychotic
individual or psychotic personality.
Mr. SPECTER. Yes; but wasn’t the key distinction that Dr. Beavers was
making was whether or not, in fact, the individual did understand the
questions as opposed to whether he appeared to understand the questions?
Mr. HERNDON. Yes; I gather from Dr. Beavers’ testimony that in this
particular instance during this particular phase of the examination
with regard to two exceptions which he mentions, Ruby appeared to be
fully aware of the intent and the meaning of the question and was
rational in his reply.
Mr. SPECTER. But didn’t he go beyond that, Mr. Herndon, that is he did
not use the qualifying term of Mr. Ruby’s appearing to be in touch
with reality, but said, and I will make the portion of the transcript
available to you: “I felt that he was aware of the questions and
that he understood them, and that he was giving answers based on an
appreciation of reality.”
Now, you have read that along with me. The distinction I am making here
is that Dr. Beavers doesn’t say here that Mr. Ruby appears to be in
touch with reality, but that he, in fact, is, according to Dr. Beavers’
conclusion, during the course of this examination, except for two areas
which I am going to come to, that Ruby was, in fact, in touch with
reality and did understand the nature of the questions and answers.
Mr. HERNDON. I recall he did specifically make that comment.
Mr. SPECTER. So that whatever ultimate conclusions flow from whether
Ruby was psychotic or whether he was in touch with reality are
beyond your ken as a polygraph examiner? You merely rely on what the
psychiatrist says in formulating your conclusions; is that not so?
Mr. HERNDON. That is correct, Mr. Specter. I would defer to
psychiatrists, of course, with regard to whether or not a person is
mentally competent or not.
Mr. SPECTER. So that if Mr. Ruby was psychotic, then the polygraph
examination would have no validity?
Mr. HERNDON. That is correct, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And if, on the other hand, Mr. Ruby was competent and
in touch with reality, understanding the nature of the questions and
the content of his answers, then the polygraph examination would have
validity?
Mr. HERNDON. Under that theory, then the polygraph examination could
be interpreted, and there would be a conclusion rendered, still
considering, of course, all the limitations of the polygraph technique,
of course.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, what two areas of questions did Dr. Beavers exclude
in the portion of his answer which you and I just read together?
Mr. HERNDON. Dr. Beavers made specific reference to two questions
which were originally drafted by himself, Dr. Beavers. These questions
were in regard to whether or not Ruby believed his family were harmed
or have been harmed, whether or not his family have been harmed for
what he did, and the other question was in regard to whether or not he
believed his chief counsel, Mr. Fowler, was in danger for defending
him, Ruby, that is.
Mr. SPECTER. And as the record will show, those were the two questions
that Dr. Beavers referred to where he felt Ruby was out of touch with
reality when he answered them during the course of the polygraph
examination?
Mr. HERNDON. That is correct.
Mr. SPECTER. And focusing for just a moment on those two questions
before we proceed to your conclusions, what answer did Mr. Ruby give to
the question as to whether his family had been harmed as a result of
what he did?
Mr. HERNDON. During the actual polygraph examination, when that
question was asked, Mr. Ruby failed to respond either yes or no.
Mr. SPECTER. Is there any portion of the overall examination which
precedes the time when the machine is activated and the needles are
operating, so to speak?
Mr. HERNDON. Yes. During the pretest interview, the actual questions
are carefully discussed with the examinee, in this case Mr. Ruby, so
that he fully understands the intent and the meaning of the questions.
Mr. SPECTER. And is that a normal part of a polygraph examination?
Mr. HERNDON. That is a standard procedure in a polygraph interrogation
technique.
Mr. SPECTER. And what is the purpose for that?
Mr. HERNDON. The purpose of that primarily is to be sure that the
examinee fully understands the question and that there are no problems
of surprise or semantics. It also psychologically conditions the
subject in that he commits himself prior to the test and will be
conditioned to know that the question will be asked again and he will
have to make a decision as to how he is going to answer it, and whether
or not he is going to attempt to deceive.
Mr. SPECTER. And what answer did Mr. Ruby give to the question about
whether his family had been harmed as a result of what he did during
the course of the preliminary discussion session?
Mr. HERNDON. To be sure; could we just check the transcript on that? I
believe he did say yes, with regard to that question.
Mr. SPECTER. Certainly. Please do check the transcript, or your notes,
either way which would be most expeditious. (Pause.) Have you now had
an opportunity to check the transcript on that last answer, Mr. Herndon?
Mr. HERNDON. Yes; I have reviewed the transcript, and with regard to
both those questions Mr. Ruby replied “Yes.”
Mr. SPECTER. During which portion of the examination?
Mr. HERNDON. This was during the pretest interview.
Mr. SPECTER. When you say he gave “yes” answers to both questions,
you mean the question about “did he think his family had been harmed
as a result of what he did,” and also the question about “whether
his defense counsel, Mr. Clayton Fowler, was in danger as a result of
representing Mr. Ruby”?
Mr. HERNDON. Yes; in both instances he volunteered yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, Mr. Herndon, based on the hypothesis or assumption
that Mr. Ruby was in touch with reality, and understood the nature of
the questions, and the quality of his answers, what opinion did you
formulate, if any, as to patterns of deceptiveness on the relevant
questions during the polygraph examination?
Mr. HERNDON. Based on the hypothesis that you just gave, Mr. Specter,
a review of the polygraph charts would indicate to me, if in fact
Ruby was mentally competent and sane, that there was no indication of
deception with regard to the specific relevant pertinent questions of
this investigation.
Mr. SPECTER. At this time, Mr. Herndon, I would like to take up the
first series of questions and answers, and ask you to state for the
record what they were and what graph readings you took by way of
elaborating upon the conclusion which you just gave.
For the record I shall mark that first chart as Herndon Deposition
Exhibit No. 1.
(The document referred to was marked Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 1
for identification.)
Mr. HERNDON. As I review the first polygraph chart I notice that I made
a notation at 1 p.m., that Ruby’s attorneys agreed to let Mr. Ruby
take the test. I actually started my adjustments of the instruments
on Mr. Ruby at 3 p.m. In this regard, I believe it proper to state
that I was using a Stoelting deceptograph model 22500 which utilizes
three components, the pneumograph, the galvanic skin response, and
the cardiograph. Also utilized during the examination was a Stoelting
polygraph subject chair.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe the chair used during the course of this
examination, please?
Mr. HERNDON. The polygraph subject chair is so designed to adjust the
level of the arms and to give complete and full support to the arms.
This is necessary to provide a minimum of restriction or pressure on
both of the arms of the examinee. This is desirable in order to obtain
the best possible tracing with regard to a person’s relative blood
pressure changes and relative changes in the heart rate. It is also
desirable to obtain the best possible tracing of the electrodermal
responses or the galvanic skin responses. The chair is also constructed
so that the person will generally refrain from slouching or crossing
his legs during the examination, both of which are undesirable.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you now then proceed to testify about the recordings
on the chart?
Mr. HERNDON. I also notice with regard to the room that the lighting in
the room was incandescent and not fluorescent, this possibly being a
factor in the tracings with regard to the galvanic skin response. The
incandescent lighting is much preferable, and, therefore, I feel that
there was no outside electrical disturbance with regard to the tracing
of the GSR, galvanic skin response.
Mr. SPECTER. Could you elaborate just a little more on why you think
the lighting would have an effect on the galvanic skin response testing
device?
Mr. HERNDON. I made a notation of this fact in my notes, in view of the
fact that it has been evident in the past that fluorescent lighting at
times has interfered with proper tracings with regard to the galvanic
skin response.
Mr. SPECTER. And fluorescent lighting was present here?
Mr. HERNDON. No, fluorescent lighting was not present here, and the
desirable or preferable incandescent lighting was present.
Mr. SPECTER. So that that would have a beneficial effect on eliminating
a potential source of interference?
Mr. HERNDON. Not beneficial, but it would not necessarily hinder the
tracing.
Mr. SPECTER. Fine.
Proceed.
Mr. HERNDON. During my initial adjustments of Mr. Ruby to the
polygraph, I noticed that he had a breathing rate of approximately 21
cycles per minute, which is well within normal respiratory patterns.
I noticed that his heart rate was approximately 78 beats per minute,
which is well within normal heart rate of individuals, and that
there appeared to be no physical problems with regard to obtaining a
satisfactory cardiogram, which monitors the cardiovascular system.
During series 1, two relevant questions were asked which were pertinent
to the investigation.
Question No. 4, in which Ruby was asked, “Did you know Oswald before
November 22, 1963?”
Mr. SPECTER. And what was his response to that question?
Mr. HERNDON. To that question he responded, “No,” and an interpretation
of the charts based on the premise that Ruby was mentally sound and
competent would fail to indicate any physiological response which would
be suggestive of deception.
Mr. SPECTER. And what is the basis for your conclusion that there was
no deceptive response elicited to that question?
Mr. HERNDON. This conclusion is actually based on my interpretation and
study of the overall charts which are still to come up. Actually, in
series 1, I noticed, however, that Mr. Ruby did respond physiologically
to a control type question: “Have you ever been arrested?”
This physiological response was in the form of a rather noticeable rise
in his blood pressure. To this particular question he did answer “Yes,”
and later explained that he had been arrested for dancing after curfew
at his own place.
He indicated by his answer that he was somewhat embarrassed by this.
Mr. SPECTER. Was that for dancing after curfew or for permitting others
to dance after curfew?
Mr. HERNDON. I got the interpretation from his comments that it was
permitting dancing, and him also being possibly involved in the party
after curfew hours. This, to me, does indicate, if in fact Ruby was
mentally competent, that he was capable of displaying emotional
responses on the polygraph, in this instance not necessarily deception,
but some concern, as portrayed by the relative rise in blood pressure.
During series 1 Mr. Ruby was also asked another relevant question,
question No. 6, which was pertinent to the investigation, that question
being: “Did you assist Oswald in the assassination?”
Mr. SPECTER. And what was his answer to that question?
Mr. HERNDON. To that question he responded “No,” and if in fact he was
mentally competent at the time he answered that question, the charts
could be interpreted that there was no physiological response to the
stimulus of the question.
Mr. SPECTER. When you say “could be interpreted,” Mr. Herndon, do you
mean that that was your opinion or your conclusion as to whether there
was a physiological response?
Mr. HERNDON. I wish to qualify my opinion here based on the fact that I
am responding under the hypothesis proposed by you that this chart is
being interpreted, that Ruby is of sound mind, and was rational in his
mental process when responding to this question.
Mr. SPECTER. Fine.
As I understand it, that is your basic hypothesis or assumption in all
of your answers to interpretation?
Mr. HERNDON. Fine, if we will keep that in mind.
Mr. SPECTER. Yes. I think that is fair and I think we have put that on
the record at the start so that whatever you interpret here is based
on the assumption that he was in touch with reality, understood the
questions, and knew what he was answering.
Mr. HERNDON. Correct, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. But the point I was coming to was, you said it “could be
interpreted” that there was no pattern of deception, and my concern was
whether there was any deliberate qualification in your answer on “could
be interpreted” or whether it was your positive interpretation that
assuming he knew what he was talking about and was sane, that there was
no pattern of deception in his negative answer on the question of, “Did
you assist Oswald in the assassination?”
Mr. HERNDON. To answer that question, Mr. Specter, I would have to go
back to my original statement that the polygraph technique is not
considered precise enough to make absolute statements of deception
or nondeception, so, therefore, any time I make any observation it
would be using probably a qualified word such as “appeared to indicate
deception” or “suggestive of deception,” keeping in mind that, of
course, there are many emotional responses that I am not in a position
to evaluate, such as fear of being falsely accused, dislike for the
people in the room, other factors which may tend to negate positive
statements that here in fact this thing is meaning he is not lying.
Mr. SPECTER. On that particular question, were there any indicators at
all that he was deceiving in his answer to question No. 6, to wit: “Did
you assist Oswald in the assassination?”
Mr. HERNDON. Other than a slight impact in the GSR, there was no
noticeable change in his physiological responses to that particular
question.
Mr. SPECTER. And what was the slight impact that you referred to in the
GSR, meaning galvanic skin response?
Mr. HERNDON. The impact here not being significant enough to make any
specific evaluation.
Mr. SPECTER. Then were there any other relevant questions in the first
series?
Mr. HERNDON. There were no other relevant questions in the first series.
Mr. SPECTER. Was there anything else in the first series which is
significant enough to comment on by way of analysis of the overall
examination?
Mr. HERNDON. No other than to say that the total chart minutes for
series 1 was 2 minutes 25 seconds in duration of time.
Mr. SPECTER. Is there any fixed limitation on how long a series can run?
Mr. HERNDON. Yes, it is generally conceded that a person should not
be run on the polygraph beyond perhaps 4 minutes, inasmuch as after
that time the pressure on the arm cuff can become discomforting and
irritating to the examinee.
In view of the fact that there was a question here of possible effect
on Ruby’s health, I attempted to maintain all my questioning within
an approximate 3-minute period to insure no damaging effect on his
physical condition.
Mr. SPECTER. Is there any overall limitation on the amount of time that
a person can appropriately take a polygraph examination?
Mr. HERNDON. Yes, there is a limitation. Certainly if a person is
interviewed with polygraph at great length, in due time he is bound to
become desensitized to the technique. In other words, the pressure on
his arm and the technique itself becomes less valid as the increase in
time proceeds.
Mr. SPECTER. Did Mr. Ruby ever become desensitized to the technique?
Mr. HERNDON. I believe in the last series of the first session, which
I believe is series 4, Mr. Ruby showed some indications of becoming
fatigued and displayed some tiredness in the charts. Also, I might add
in the latter phase of the examination, in the latter series, there was
some indication that he was approaching this desensitization that I
have mentioned before.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you now given us all the relevant findings from
series of 1?
Mr. HERNDON. I think so. There might be one other thing I will just
mention here, and that is in question 5 with regard to, “Do you use
the middle name Leon” there were some noticeable changes in the
physiological tracings. However, these were caused by his laughter and
talking in which he later explained that he sometimes used the name,
but other times he doesn’t, and that the name Leon is sentimental to
him. That is the only other noticeable variance in his normal tracing
that I wish to comment on.
Mr. SPECTER. Let us then proceed now to series 2 and mark that Herndon
Deposition Exhibit No. 2, if we may, please.
(The document referred to was marked Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 2
for identification.)
Mr. SPECTER. Now, referring to that chart, what significant findings
were there on that chart?
Mr. HERNDON. The only significant change physiologically during series
No. 2 was in Mr. Ruby’s response to the question, “Have you ever been
known by another name?”, as portrayed by an increase in his blood
pressure. He answered this question with both a yes and a no, and after
the series was completed there was some discussion with regard to the
question. He mentioned that he was uncertain how to answer the question
because he had originally used the name of Jack Rubenstein and that
he had legally changed it at a later date. Other than some variations
in the pneumograph which were caused by his hesitating to answer due
to the length of the questions provided, there is no other significant
physiological change noticed in series 2.
Mr. SPECTER. And what were the relevant questions in series 2?
Mr. HERNDON. The relevant questions in series 2 were No. 3 “Are you now
a member of the Communist Party?” in which there was no significant
physiological change.
Mr. SPECTER. What was his response there?
Mr. HERNDON. He responded “No,” to that question.
On question No. 5, which is considered relevant, he was asked, “Have
you ever been a member of the Communist Party?” He responded “No,” and
there is no significant response recorded. There is an adjustment on my
behalf of the cardiogram tracing.
Mr. SPECTER. What do you mean by that, Mr. Herndon?
Mr. HERNDON. Where this arrow is placed, and I brought down the tracing
to a lower level so that I could see if there would be any subsequent
rise.
Mr. SPECTER. And was it a consistent tracing thereafter indicating no
deviation?
Mr. HERNDON. Yes. The cardiogram is interpreted as being consistent,
and no significant change or deviation.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, what other relevant questions were asked in that
series?
Mr. HERNDON. Question 7, “Are you now a member of any group that
advocates the violent overthrow of the U.S. Government?” There is no
significant change in his relative blood pressure, and the only change
significant in his breathing pattern which by chart interpretation was
caused by him hesitating to answer the question due to its length.
Mr. SPECTER. What was his response to that question?
Mr. HERNDON. He responded “No” to question No. 7.
Mr. SPECTER. Were there any other relevant questions in that group?
Mr. HERNDON. Question No. 8 was relevant. It was, “Have you ever been
a member of any group that advocates the violent overthrow of the U.S.
Government?” Here, again, he responded “No.” There was no significant
change.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you start that again?
Mr. HERNDON. Question No. 8 was “Have you ever been a member of any
group that advocates the violent overthrow of the U.S. Government?”
This is a relatively long question for polygraph technique, and I note
that there was some hesitation in the pneumograph tracing, in view
of the fact he had to wait for the question to be completed before
he could respond. He eventually did respond “No” and there was no
significant change in his physiological tracings. The total chart
minutes, that is the time that he was actually on the polygraph from
the beginning to the end of this particular series, was 2 minutes 30
seconds.
Mr. SPECTER. Were there any other relevant questions in that group?
Mr. HERNDON. There were no other relevant questions in that group.
Mr. SPECTER. Were there any other significant findings in that portion
of the test on series No. 2?
Mr. HERNDON. There was a control question “did you ever make a false
official statement” to which he responded “No.” There was a very minor
change in the cardiograph tracing as portrayed by a slight decrease in
the relative blood pressure. However, it is not considered significant
enough to make any additional statements.
Mr. SPECTER. Now you have given us all the relevant findings for series
No. 2; is that correct, Mr. Herndon?
Mr. HERNDON. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Let us now proceed to the next series and mark the next
series as Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 3.
(Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 3 was marked for identification.)
Mr. SPECTER. Would you start off on the third series, Mr. Herndon, by
telling us what were the relevant questions and the responses thereto,
if any?
Mr. HERNDON. During series 3, there were three relevant questions
asked. No. 3: “Between the assassination and the shooting, did anybody
you know tell you they knew Oswald?”
He responded “No,” and there was no significant physiological change
recorded on the polygraph. There is a noticeable change in the
pneumograph pattern. However, this has been interpreted again as being
caused by the relatively long length of this particular question.
Question No. 5 was: “Aside from anything you said to George Senator
on Sunday morning, did you ever tell anyone else that you intended to
shoot Oswald?” In comparison to his overall chart, there is nothing
of particular significance in his physiological responses to this
question, when he responded “No” to question 5.
Question No. 8 was: “Did you shoot Oswald in order to silence him?”
This again being a relevant question. He responded “No.” There was no
significant deviation in his physiological responses to this question.
During series 3 he was asked two control-type questions in which he
did respond significantly with regard to the physiological tracings.
Question No. 4 was asked: “Are you married?” Mr. Ruby responded “No.”
An interpretation of his polygrams reveal a rather significant rise in
his relative blood pressure. He also produced a rather vivid impact on
the GSR tracings, and there was noticeable staircase suppression in
his pneumograph pattern. This question was later discussed with Mr.
Ruby, and he said that he was thinking of a young girl by the name of
Alice Nichols who he had previously considered marrying. He admitted
that he felt something “working on him,” with regard to this particular
question. An analysis of this question would indicate that Ruby did
emotionally respond to the stimulus of the question “Are you married,”
and his thoughts of a former sweetheart. This does not indicate that
there was any deception of course, but does suggest Mr. Ruby does
respond physiologically to certain emotions that he feels when he
hears the questions and decides how to answer them. In a sense this is
a control-type question. Also in this series, in question No. 7, Mr.
Ruby was asked: “While in the service did you receive any disciplinary
action?” There is a noticeable rise in his blood pressure after he
responded “No.” This question had been discussed rather thoroughly with
him, and after the series was run, he admitted that he had been called
in before his commanding officer regarding a brawl he had while in the
military service. He also commented: “Evidently you are getting a good
reading.” This could be interpreted as a deception pattern inasmuch as
in his mind he realized he had been in some trouble in the military
service; however, did not want to truthfully answer the question as he
considered it insignificant.
However, he did admit that he had been in some trouble with his
commanding officer regarding fighting. This is considered a control
question, and its response is greater than his response to the previous
relevant question which I had related.
Mr. SPECTER. Would there be any difference in psychological reactions,
Mr. Herndon, on a pattern of deception which the subject considered
insignificant as opposed to a pattern of deception which the subject
considered significant?
Mr. HERNDON. Generally the concept of the polygraph technique is that
we are attempting to find out what a man’s physiological responses
will be in any area where he is attempting to deceive. The content of
the actual deception is not particularly important. We want to get a
tracing of where he is attempting to deceive. Now under a situation
such as Mr. Ruby was in here, it is more probable that he is more
concerned about these relevant questions than these irrelevant or
control-type questions. In other words, the relevant questions have
more to do with his well-being or what he is trying to prove to the
Commission. However, the chart here still shows that he attempted to
deceive with regard to what he considered insignificant, but it tends
to indicate to me that he will respond to a practice of deception, if
that answers your question.
Mr. SPECTER. What I am driving at here is whether there is any gage in
whether he considers it insignificant or significant in the reading.
Stated differently, there would be a response even though he might
consider a question to be insignificant.
Mr. HERNDON. That is right. If there is an attempt on his part to
practice deception, if he again, as I say, is competent and reasoning
rationally. In general practice of polygraph work, generally speaking
the control questions are of lesser severity than the actual pertinent
questions, but in those cases where the person appears to be telling
the truth, we find that they will respond more to the control questions
than the critical question, even though the critical question has more
potency and is more severe with regard to his well-being.
Mr. SPECTER. Were there any other significant findings on that chart?
Mr. HERNDON. Yes. Mr. Ruby also responded significantly in a
physiological sense with regard to question 9: “Have you ever served
time in jail?” He failed to actually respond yes or no. However, there
was a decrease in his blood pressure, a moderate impact in the GSR, and
a change in the baseline of his pneumograph tracing. The fact that he
actually failed to say yes or no precludes my interpretation of whether
or not this is an indication of deception, but it does indicate that
Ruby did experience a physiological variation from his normal pattern
with regard to this question which is of a control-type nature.
Mr. SPECTER. Does that complete then the relevant findings on that
chart?
Mr. HERNDON. That concludes series No. 3. It might be worthwhile to
record that the total chart minutes on this particular series was 2
minutes 45 seconds.
Mr. SPECTER. Let us then mark the next series, which is series 3a, as
Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 4.
(Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 4 was marked for identification.)
Mr. SPECTER. Would you start there on series 3a with the relevant
questions, the responses and your evaluation of any significant
psychological deviation, please?
Mr. HERNDON. This particular series 3a was what would be called a
modified peak of tension series. Ruby was carefully instructed prior
to the series that four relevant questions were going to be asked in a
consecutive order.
Question No. 3: “Did you first decide to shoot Oswald on Friday night?”
He responded “No.”
Question No. 4: “Did you first decide to shoot Oswald on Saturday
morning?” He responded “No.”
Question No. 5: “Did you first decide to shoot Oswald Saturday night?”
He responded “No.”
Question No. 6: “Did you first decide to shoot Oswald Sunday morning?”
He responded “Yes.”
These are the only relevant questions in this series. A review of
the chart with regard to his responses in this series reveals that
Ruby’s blood pressure continually rose from the question No. 3 until
it reached a peak just as question No. 6 was asked. In addition it
was noted that there was a rather noticeable change in his breathing
pattern as question No. 6 was approached. There is a slight impact in
the GSR tracing as question No. 6 is approached. This would mean to me
in interpreting the chart that Ruby reached a peak of tension as the
question No. 6 was about to be asked in which he responded “Yes” to
“Did you first decide to shoot Oswald Sunday morning?” This particular
type of series cannot be interpreted with regard to whether or not
there was any deception, but it does indicate that Ruby built up a
physiological peak of tension to the time of Sunday morning with regard
to his decision of shooting Oswald.
Mr. SPECTER. Is there any correlation between the building up of a peak
of tension and the accurate answer to the series?
Mr. HERNDON. In normal usage of polygraph technique where a peak of
tension is used, if the series is effective, the party will usually
respond to a particular item which happens to be the most pertinent
with regard to the offense. In this case it appears that Ruby projected
his entire thoughts and built up a physiological peak of tension to the
point of Sunday morning.
Mr. SPECTER. Are there any other significant readings on Exhibit No. 4?
Mr. HERNDON. There is no other significant reading on series 4. The
total chart minutes was 2 minutes.
Mr. SPECTER. Let’s move on then to series No. 4 and we will mark that
as Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 5.
(Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 5 was marked for identification.)
Mr. SPECTER. I will ask you to start on that one, Mr. Herndon, by
giving us the relevant questions and answers to those relevant
questions and the responses, if any?
Mr. HERNDON. I believe this is series No. 4.
Mr. SPECTER. Yes; series No. 4, and we have marked it as Exhibit No. 5.
We are one out of number now since we have used an “A” series.
Mr. HERNDON. In series No. 4, Mr. Ruby was asked four relevant
questions.
Question No. 2: “Were you on the sidewalk at the time Lieutenant
Pierce’s car stopped on the ramp exit?” He responded “Yes.”
Question No. 4: “Did you enter the jail by walking through the
alleyway?” Mr. Ruby responded “No.”
Question No. 6: “Did you walk past the guard at the time Lieutenant
Pierce’s car was parked on the ramp exit?” Mr. Ruby replied “Yes.”
Question No. 8: “Did you talk with any Dallas police officer on Sunday,
November 24, prior to shooting Oswald?” Mr. Ruby replied “No.”
With regard to chart interpretation on this particular series of
questions, it is difficult to interpret because this is the first
series where Mr. Ruby tends to show a little fatigue in that he took
several deep breaths, could not refrain from moving his foot and the
rest of his body, and, in general, the chart is relatively difficult to
interpret.
However, considering these body motions and his irregular breathing,
there appear to be no significant physiological variations with regard
to his response to the relevant questions as projected in that series.
There is one question in which he displayed a moderate rise of blood
pressure, and that was in regard to an irrelevant question No. 5: “Are
your parents alive?” In which he stated “No.” He was questioned about
this after the series was over, and he advised that he felt a little
nervous during this series, but that particular question didn’t give
him any trouble. His breathing is quite irregular throughout this
series, and I have a notation on my chart that I advised Mr. Specter
that Mr. Ruby was beginning to show some signs of fatigue, and it was
mutually agreed that we would have a recess at this point.
Mr. SPECTER. How long did that recess last, Mr. Herndon?
Mr. HERNDON. This particular series began according to my charts at
4:35 p.m., and the next subsequent series began at 6:48 p.m.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you now given us all the important findings on series
4?
Mr. HERNDON. Yes; I have.
Mr. SPECTER. Let’s move on now then to series No. 5 and mark that as
Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 6.
(Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 6 was marked for identification.)
Mr. SPECTER. I will ask you to start with the relevant questions again,
and give us the answers and any significant physiological deviation.
Mr. HERNDON. This particular series which my notes refer to as series
No. 5 began at 6:48, and Mr. Ruby was asked four relevant questions.
Question No. 2: “Did you see the armored truck before you entered the
basement?” He replied “No.”
Question No. 4: “Did you enter the police department through a door at
the rear on the east side of the jail?” He responded “No.”
Question No. 6: “After talking to Little Lynn did you hear any
announcement that Oswald was about to be moved?” He responded “No.”
Question No. 8: “Before you left your apartment Sunday morning,
did anyone tell you the armored car was on the way to the police
department?” He replied “No.”
The one particular thing of interest with regard to overall
interpretation of this chart is how Ruby showed considerable more
relaxation and appeared to be completely at ease after the recess.
There was no physiological variation of any significance noted with
regard to his replies to the relevant questions. There is some
deviation with regard to his pneumograph tracing at question No. 7,
which is considered a control-type question. This question was: “Other
than what you told me, did you ever hit anyone with any kind of a
weapon?” He responded to this question by talking. However, he later
asked that the question be repeated. The question was repeated during
the series, and he responded “No.” The only significant deviation from
his normal pattern was recorded in the pneumograph, and this was caused
by his talking in response to the question the first time it was asked.
There is nothing else significant noted in series No. 5.
Mr. SPECTER. Let’s proceed then to series No. 6 and we will mark that
as Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 7.
(Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 7 was marked for identification.)
Mr. HERNDON. Do you want the total chart minutes?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes; please give us that.
Mr. HERNDON. The total chart minutes of series 5 was 2 minutes 55
seconds.
Mr. SPECTER. May the record show now that we have marked series No.
6 as Herndon Exhibit No. 7. Would you now, Mr. Herndon, specify the
relevant questions, responses, and psychological deviations, if any?
Mr. HERNDON. In series No. 6 Mr. Ruby was asked four relevant questions.
No. 2: “Did you get a Wall Street Journal at Southwestern Drug Store
during the week before the assassination?” He replied “No.”
Question No. 4: “Do you have any knowledge of a Wall Street Journal
addressed to a Mr. J. E. Bradshaw?”
He replied “No.”
Question No. 6: “To your knowledge did you or any of your friends
telephone the FBI in Dallas between 2 and 3 a.m. Sunday morning?” He
replied “No.”
Question No. 8: “Did you or any of your friends to your knowledge
telephone the sheriff’s office between 2 or 3 a.m. Sunday morning?” He
replied “No.”
From a review of Mr. Ruby’s polygrams, on series 6, it was noted that
there were no significant physiological variations to his response to
the relevant questions. It was noted that Mr. Ruby did display slight
suppression in his breathing pattern, and a relative decrease in blood
pressure with an increase in the heart amplitude at question No. 7.
This question was: “Did you ever overcharge a customer?” Mr. Ruby
replied “No.” However, after the series, this question was discussed
with him briefly, and he did make mention of the fact that there had
been some trouble at his nightclub with regard to the waitresses and
big bills. This could be interpreted as a possible deception pattern
in that he hedged with regard to the question “Did you ever overcharge
a customer.” The total chart minutes of series No. 6 was 2 minutes 50
seconds.
Mr. SPECTER. Are there any other significant findings on series 6?
Mr. HERNDON. The only significant finding being that the control
question 7 displays a more significant variation than his response to
the relevant questions. There are no others.
Mr. SPECTER. You have now given us then all the significant findings on
series 6?
Mr. HERNDON. That is correct.
Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that we are now placing the
designation Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 8 on series No. 7.
(Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 8 was marked for identification.)
Mr. SPECTER. Would you start again, Mr. Herdon, with the relevant
questions and tell us the answers and the responses thereto with any
significant findings?
Mr. HERNDON. Series No. 7 contains four relevant questions.
Question No. 2: “Did you go to the Dallas police station at any time on
Friday, November 22, 1963, before you went to the synagogue?” Mr. Ruby
replied “No.”
Question No. 4: “Did you go to the synagogue that Friday night?” Mr.
Ruby replied “Yes.”
Question No. 6: “Did you see Oswald in the Dallas jail on Friday
night?” Mr. Ruby replied “Yes.”
Question No. 8: “Did you have a gun with you when you went to the
Friday midnight press conference at the jail?” Mr. Ruby replied “No.”
There was one other question asked which I consider irrelevant.
However, it is of value to the series, and I will make mention of it,
question No. 9: “Is everything you told the Warren Commission the
entire truth?” Mr. Ruby responded “Yes.”
With regard to overall interpretation of series No. 7, I first noticed
there is a physiological deviation to Mr. Ruby’s response to question
No. 1 which was “Do you intend to answer the questions truthfully.”
However, my notes indicate that Mr. Ruby talked and said “Yes, I do,”
and by actually speaking several words it is believed that this caused
the variation in the tracings.
Mr. SPECTER. Will movement or speaking cause a variation in the
tracings ordinarily, Mr. Herndon?
Mr. HERNDON. Yes. Body movements or speaking any phrase or sentence
would certainly cause changes in the physiological patterns as
displayed on the polygraph. I made notation of that, however, and
that explains the changes. On question No. 2, Mr. Ruby did show
a significant drop in the relative blood pressure. This question
pertained to: “Did you go to the Dallas police station at any time on
Friday November 22, 1963, before you went to the synagogue?” I asked
him about this question later when he responded “No,” and I noticed a
physiological change. He advised that there was some man by the name of
John Rutledge, and he made an association with proceedings at the trial
which I have reason to believe this gentleman, John Rutledge, differed
somewhat with what Ruby stated as to when he went to the synagogue.
Due to the nature of this change, however, it is possible that it was
caused by a body motion that I failed to detect during the actual
response.
I notice that the cardio pen dropped all the way down and hit what we
call the limit screws. This frequently is caused by a sudden rapid
shift in his body position, and this change could have been caused by a
body movement.
With regard to the other relevant questions in this series, question 4,
question 6, and question 8, there was no significant deviation from his
normal physiological patterns.
Mr. SPECTER. Were there any other significant findings, in series No. 7?
Mr. HERNDON. There was a significant change in his breathing pattern
and also a slight decrease in his blood pressure when I asked him the
question “Did you attend the synagogue regularly?”
However, this is a control type question, and as later discussed with
him, there was some area of doubt in his mind as to whether he attended
the synagogue regularly as much as he would like to. The total chart
minutes on series 7 was 2 minutes 55 seconds.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you now given all the relevant findings on chart No.
7?
Mr. HERNDON. Yes, I have.
Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that I have affixed Herndon Deposition
Exhibit No. 9 to series No. 8.
(Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 9 was marked for identification.)
Mr. SPECTER. I hand it to you with the request that you give us the
findings there starting with the relevant questions.
Mr. HERNDON. Series No. 8 contained five relevant questions.
No. 2: “Have you ever knowingly attended any meetings of the Communist
Party or any other group that advocates violent overthrow of the
Government?” Mr. Ruby replied “No.”
I notice in the pneumograph tracing some deviation. However, by
interpretation of the chart and the length of that particular question,
it again appears obvious that there was some hesitation on his part in
answering the question due to its length.
However, there was no other noticeable significant physiological
deviation in his response to that question.
Question No. 4: “Is any of your immediate family or any close friend a
member of the Communist Party?” Mr. Ruby replied “No” and there is no
significant change in his normal physiological pattern.
Question No. 6: “Is any of your immediate family or any close friend
a member of any group that advocates the violent overthrow of the
Government?” This again is a relatively long question. However, it did
not appear to disturb him, and there is no noticable physiological
deviation in his response to this question.
Question No. 8: “Did any close friend or any member of your immediate
family ever attend a meeting of the Communist Party?” Mr. Ruby replied
“No.”
Here again there is no noticable significant deviation in his
physiological pattern.
Question No. 9: “Did any close friend or any member of your immediate
family ever attend a meeting of any group that advocates the violent
overthrow of the Government?” Here again this is a relatively long
question and there was a little hesitation on his part in answering
it, causing a change in the pneumograph tracing. However, there is no
significant deviation with regard to his overall physiological pattern
when he responded to this question. In general, series 8 shows no
significant deviation from his normal physiological pattern. The total
chart minutes was 2 minutes 50 seconds.
Mr. SPECTER. You have now then given us all of the relevant findings on
series No. 8, correct?
Mr. HERNDON. Correct, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you the chart designated series No. 9 marked
Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 10, and ask you if there was any unique
system employed in that series.
(Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 10 was marked for identification.)
Mr. HERNDON. Yes, there was at this point in the interrogation.
Realizing the Commission had a large number of questions they wanted
to ask, it was decided at this point, in view of the fact that we had
asked the main critical questions, to proceed with what I call direct
interrogation, that is that each and every one of the questions asked
is a relevant question, and that there are no irrelevant questions or
control questions asked.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you proceed then to give us the results of those
questions.
Mr. HERNDON. Did you want me to itemize each and every one of these
questions or read them out? They are all relevant questions and a
matter of record.
Mr. SPECTER. Yes, please do.
Mr. HERNDON. Series 9 contains 7 questions, all being relevant.
Question No. 1: “Did you ever meet Oswald at your post office box?” Mr.
Ruby replied “No.”
Question No. 2: “Did you use your post office mail box to do any
business with Mexico or Cuba?” Mr. Ruby replied “No.”
Question No. 3: “Did you do business with Castro Cuba?” Mr. Ruby
replied “No.”
Question No. 4: “Was your trip to Cuba solely for pleasure?”
Mr. Ruby replied “Yes.”
Question No. 5: “Have you now told us the truth concerning why you
carried $2,200 in cash on you?” Mr. Ruby replied “Yes.”
Question No. 6: “Did any foreign influence cause you to shoot Oswald?”
Mr. Ruby replied “No.”
Question No. 7: “Did you shoot Oswald because of any influence of the
underworld?” Mr. Ruby replied “No.”
In interpreting his chart with regard to this particular series
of questions, there is no noticeable significant deviation in his
physiological pattern except at question No. 6. According to my
notation on the chart, Ruby moved his head at this point, and there was
a deviation caused by this movement in his blood pressure tracing and
also in his pneumograph tracing. His heart rate maintained a consistent
rate of approximately 66 to 72 heart beats per minute throughout this
series. No significant changes.
Mr. SPECTER. What was the total time on that series?
Mr. HERNDON. The total chart minutes on series 9 was 2 minutes 15
seconds.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you now given us all the relevant factors from that
series reading?
Mr. HERNDON. Yes; I have.
Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that you are going to proceed with
series 9A which is a continuation of the sheet marked Herndon Exhibit
No. 10.
Mr. HERNDON. This was done in order to save time inasmuch as the
interrogation was becoming rather lengthy at this point, and Mr.
Specter indicated he was anxious to proceed and to complete the rest of
the questions that we had agreed upon with all those parties that were
interested in this interrogation.
Series No. 9A again is a series of relevant questions.
Question No. 8: “Did you shoot Oswald because of labor union
influence?” Mr. Ruby replied “No.”
Question No. 9: “Did any long distance telephone calls which you made
before the assassination of the President have anything to do with the
assassination?” Mr. Ruby replied “No.”
Question No. 10: “Did any of your long distance telephone calls concern
the shooting of Oswald?” Mr. Ruby replied “No.”
Mr. SPECTER. What number question was that again?
Mr. HERNDON. Question No. 10.
Question No. 11: “Did you shoot Oswald in order to save Mrs. Kennedy
the ordeal of a trial?” Mr. Ruby replied “Yes.”
Question No. 12: “Did you know the Tippit that was killed?” Mr. Ruby
replied “No.”
Question No. 13: “Did you tell the truth about relaying the message to
Ray Brantley to get McWillie a few guns?” Mr. Ruby replied “Yes.”
Question No. 14: “Did you go to the assembly room on Friday night to
get the telephone number of KLIF?” Mr. Ruby replied “Yes.”
Question No. 15: “Did you ever meet with Oswald and Tippit at your
club?” Mr. Ruby replied “No.”
Mr. SPECTER. On the designations series 9 and 9A, Mr. Herndon, did you
loosen up the cuff on his arm during the two series?
Mr. HERNDON. Yes; I deliberately loosened or actually I completely took
off all pressure off his arm to allow him to have complete circulation
in his arm and to give him a rest period before proceeding with series
9A. I believe the transcript will show that I asked him if he was
feeling all right and if he was ready to proceed before going into
series 9A. A review of series 9A with regard to Ruby’s polygrams fails
to reveal any significant physiological reaction with regard to his
responses to these relevant questions.
At this point, Mr. Specter, I might add that we are getting into an
area now where it is possible that Ruby is getting somewhat cuff
weary and getting somewhat tired and becoming somewhat immune to the
polygraph technique. I believe we both realized this.
However, we wanted to ask these questions as a matter of record. The
chart shows there is no stress or strain. However, it is entirely
possible that he is becoming desensitized at this point.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you now given us all the relevant findings on series
9a?
Mr. HERNDON. Yes; the total chart minutes for this particular series
was 2 minutes 30 seconds.
Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you series No. 10 which is marked Herndon
Deposition Exhibit No. 11, and ask you to start again with the relevant
questions and give us the responses thereto and any significant
findings.
(Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 11 was marked for identification.)
Mr. HERNDON. Series No. 10 again was mutually agreed upon by several of
the people present during the examination. However, formally authorized
by Mr. Specter of the President’s Commission. They are question No.
2 which is relevant: “Were you at the Parkland Hospital any time on
Friday?” Mr. Ruby replied, “No.”
Question No. 3, which is considered relevant. “Did you say anything
when you shot Oswald other than what you testified about?”
Mr. Ruby replied, “No.”
Question No. 4, which was originally recommended by Dr. Beavers and as
agreed upon by Mr. Specter, was presented in this manner.
Question No. 4: “Have members of your family been physically harmed
because of what you did?” Mr. Ruby—could we go off the record here? I
am a little confused on my notes at this point?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes; off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that while off the record, Mr. Herndon
has referred to his notes and also to the transcript of testimony
taken by the court reporter at the time the polygraph examination was
administered, to be sure of the questions and answers here, and that as
Mr. Herndon points out, his notes correspond with the transcript.
Will you then proceed Mr. Herndon to state those questions, answers and
responses, if any?
Mr. HERNDON. Yes; No. 4 was: “Have members of your family been
physically harmed because of what you did?” Mr. Ruby did reply “No,”
and then said: “May I interrupt?” He was instructed by me to just sit
perfectly still and we will discuss the questions later. There was a
deviation in his physiological tracings with regard to this question.
However, these must be interpreted to the fact that he actually spoke a
sentence in response to the question.
Question No. 5 was: “Do you think members of your family are now in
danger because of what you did?” Mr. Ruby failed to make any reply
or response to this particular question. It is noted that there was
no significant change in his physiological tracings in any of the
components following my asking this question.
Question No. 6 was: “Is Mr. Fowler in danger because he is defending
you?” Here again Mr. Ruby failed to make any verbal reply to the
question. Looking at the polygrams produced, it is noted that there is
no significant physiological response with regard to this question. The
examiner made a notation on his chart that it appeared that Mr. Ruby
was visibly pondering the answer to these questions. However, decided
not to answer them as instructed either yes or no period.
Question No. 7 is a relevant question: “Did Blackie Harrison speak to
you just before you shot Oswald?” Mr. Ruby replied “No” and there is a
slight increase in his relative blood pressure. However, this is not
considered significant inasmuch as it is at the end of the series, and
it is not unusual for slight increase in blood pressure to be portrayed
as the series prolongs into the later questions. It is not considered
significant.
The total chart minutes on this particular series was 2 minutes 25
seconds.
In discussion of the two questions in which Mr. Ruby failed to reply, I
made notations on the chart that he felt the questions were difficult
to answer yes or no, and that he didn’t know how to answer them.