Mr. SPECTER. No; we asked you that very carefully a number of ways and
one way was when Mr. Herndon asked you did you think of it on Friday,
and you said “No”; did you think of it on Saturday morning—“No”; did
you think of it on Saturday evening—“No”; on Sunday morning “Yes,”—so
we’ve covered that very thoroughly.
Mr. RUBY. Have I ever received any monies—we don’t need that, do we,
for subversive purposes or anything.
Mr. SPECTER. I think we’ve covered that whole area very carefully.
Mr. RUBY. Now, what about my being present in the News Building that
morning? Here—the assassination took place across the street from there?
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby, I think we have covered that when we asked
you if you told the truth on your testimony before the President’s
Commission, because you went into that on June 7, and that isn’t nearly
the central issue as the other specific questions we have asked you.
Mr. RUBY. Yes; but if I was in a conspiracy, wouldn’t it start off with
that point? Oh, yes; they didn’t ask me another question: “If I loved
the President so much, why wasn’t I at the parade?” Is that a very
important question to ask?
Mr. SPECTER. We have considered those questions and that was when we
reviewed the transcript of your testimony, and quite frankly, we have
rejected them as being not important.
Mr. RUBY. You have? I see. Now, isn’t it strange—now, I want to tell
you something that’s noticeable in this part of the country about the
poll tax, and there are a lot of other reasons, maybe. I’m reluctant to
buy my poll tax in time, and I don’t recall whether or not—is this all
right to go in the record if I speak?
Mr. SPECTER. You may go on the record with any facet you think is
important for the Commission to know about.
Mr. RUBY. And yet, it’s strange that perhaps I didn’t vote for
President Kennedy, or didn’t vote at all, that I should build up such
a great affection for him, when everything points against me. For
instance, the parade issue I referred to. How can I answer that and
still show my sincerity or my feelings and why I was carried away so
emotionally to do something like that, that has put me in such serious
trouble?
Mr. ALEXANDER. Jack, there’s no way to put that on the machine other
than to ask you if you told the truth in your testimony; and that’s an
opinion without concrete facts.
Mr. RUBY. But I don’t remember if I got all the testimony in when
Warren was here.
Mr. SPECTER. You testify now as to anything you want to add and we can
ask you one question at the end and that will be “Have you told the
truth in everything you’ve said here today?” That one question will
cover everything you said, so that if any other phase comes to your
mind now, let us hear about it.
Mr. RUBY. What I’m trying to bring out is this: It’s—and everyone
was very much surprised—why should I be carried away so emotionally
to commit the act, and yet knowing how I felt and knowing I know I’m
telling the truth, how can we bring that point out that I am not
sincere in why I did it?
Mr. SPECTER. We can bring that out with the one general question. Now,
is there any other topic you would like to testify about and have us
check you on your truthfulness?
Mr. RUBY. Yes—whether or not I was ever mixed up with the underworld
here or involved in any crime?
Mr. SPECTER. You’ve been asked that specifically, and you’ve testified
about that.
Mr. RUBY. Yes. You see, I’ve been in Dallas 17 years and yet suddenly
I get involved in a very serious crime and I was very popular with the
police department and a lot of other people, and the irony is—it took a
complete reverse of that, because of various suspicions, nature, and so
on.
I wonder if you follow what I’m trying to bring out? Maybe there’s
something we can cover in that area.
Mr. ALEXANDER. Jack, let’s cover it this way. “Were any of your
relations with the police department improper?”
Mr. RUBY. No—you, like doing business or something or other?
Mr. ALEXANDER. Yes?
Mr. RUBY. No—none whatsoever.
Mr. ALEXANDER. Well, would that question cover what you had in mind?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. ALEXANDER. Tell us what you had in mind and then we’ll frame the
question, because that’s an area.
Mr. RUBY. Whether or not I am of criminal background or whether I’m
an honest and sincere person, because all those things came out and
suspicions came out that Jack Ruby was involved in this and that and
leaves a lot of suspicion as to my background and my character. That’s
very vague, but that’s what I’m trying to bring out.
Mr. ALEXANDER. How would this question be? “Are you a police character?”
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. TONAHILL. “Are you a 100 percent patriotic American citizen?”
Mr. ALEXANDER. “Are you a law-abiding citizen?”
Mr. RUBY. That’s better—that’s the question.
Mr. ALEXANDER. “Are you a law-abiding patriotic citizen?”
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. TONAHILL. “Are you a 100 percent American patriotic citizen?”
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. That can be asked.
Mr. RUBY. That’s very good, because—shall I elaborate on this?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes.
Mr. RUBY. I became closely attached to our beloved President when he
gave that wonderful speech when we had our problem in Cuba at that
time. That was a very tremendous speech and then I followed him on
television and in magazines wherever he went—to Ireland and different
places.
Now, Joe asked a very good question. In other words, either you are
American or you’re half and half or you’re indifferent to the way you
feel about your country and how much you love it.
When he stated to me a moment ago, “Are you 100 percent
American?”—that’s the way you feel about your country. I don’t know how
to state it but first of all, I want to make sure—I’ve got my flags
in both colors—that doesn’t show any overt—but inwardly, I’m a very
unstable person. I’m very lax in certain details and things, and yet
for the emotional feeling and the feeling for giving my life and for
loving this country is so great, that I think when you asked me that
question, “Are you 100 percent American?” and if I answered the truth,
it will greater effect than any other way you can ask me.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby, we can cover that one in a specific question, in
another general question, on whether you have told the complete truth
here today. Are there any other topics which you want to cover?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes, sir. Has any of the underworld ever contributed
money to me for my clubs, or was I put in here as a front for the
underworld or things to that effect. I mean—this has a relationship to
criminal intent.
Mr. SPECTER. We’ve asked you the question if the underworld had any
connection with the shooting of Oswald.
Let me now ask you for the record while you are under oath, whether you
were put in here by the underworld?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Did the underworld contribute in any way to the financing
of any of your clubs?
Mr. RUBY. None whatsoever.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you had any connection or association in any way
whatsoever with the underworld during the past 17 years you’ve been in
Dallas?
Mr. RUBY. Never have.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, we’ll ask you in a few moments with Mr. Herndon,
whether you’ve told the truth, and that will be covered—that will cover
this underworld question.
Mr. RUBY. Just the one question is enough to cover it?
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Herndon advises that it is.
Mr. HERNDON. I can ask that question and have it a matter of record.
Mr. RUBY. You see, there are so many things that I know in the minds of
the people in Dallas that you’re not concerned with, that maybe I was
put here as a front of the underworld and sooner or later they will get
something out of me that they want done to their advantage.
Everything I have had financed, my brother Earl has contributed the
money for or Ralph Paul, a friend of mine, has loaned me money.
Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Specter, if I can interrupt—on some of these
questions you are recently discussing here are more or less in the
area of emotions and the area dealing with advance psychology or of a
psychiatric nature, and although I can ask them if you so wish, they
are questions that don’t necessarily lend themselves to the polygraph
technique.
Unless you can specifically break them down to a clearcut question
which could be answered truthfully “Yes” or “No,” that involves a
specific action or emotion that he can recall in regard to a particular
action, then it would not be a good question here.
Mr. SPECTER. I agree with you.
Mr. HERNDON. You see, this 100 percent American type question doesn’t
necessarily lend itself to polygraph examination.
Mr. SPECTER. I agree with your conclusion, but what we’re trying to
do now is to cover all of the important substantive questions which I
think we have. After Mr. Ruby tells me that he is satisfied with what
we have covered, I propose to ask the same question of Mr. Fowler and
Mr. Alexander and also Mr. Tonahill, so that we will have covered the
subject matter. We will do our utmost to be all-inclusive here, so that
whatever effect the polygraph can gage as to Mr. Ruby’s truthfulness,
we will do so.
Mr. RUBY. Let me put it this way: Here I run a nightclub. I run a
nightclub and on Friday this tragic event happens and I get carried
away more so than anyone else. Why? Why was I so sick mentally or so
carried away?
I immediately replaced my newspaper ads so that I would be closed for
those 3 days. This is the ironic part of it, that wouldn’t it be a
tremendous hoax, or certain people would probably believe it that
way, that here’s a fellow that didn’t vote for the President, closes
his clubs for 3 days, made a trip to Cuba, relayed a message from a
person—from Ray Brantley—look at circumstantially how guilty I am? If
you want to put all these things together? Then, I happen to be down
there, which is a million and one shot, that I should happen to be down
there at that particular second when this man comes out of whatever
it was—an elevator or whatever it was—all these things—plus the fact
of the post office box and other rumors that they saw us together at
the club—how can we give me the clearance that the ads I put in were
authentic, my sincerity, my feeling of emotionalism were sincere; that
that Sunday morning I got carried away after reading the article, a
letter addressed to Caroline and then this little article that stated
Mrs. Kennedy might be requested to come back and face the ordeal of the
trial?
Also, if there was a conspiracy, then this little girl that called me
on the phone in Fort Worth then is a part of the conspiracy. Do you
follow me?
Mr. SPECTER. I understand you, Mr. Ruby, but you have testified about
most of this on the prior occasion, such as seeing the article in
the newspaper, about the letter to little Caroline and about the
necessity for Mrs. Kennedy to return, and we have formulated the
questions concerning the major topics which we have of concern and
have supplemented those topics in the questions to you. I think in all
fairness that we have gone as far as we can on any of the substantive
questions, and I want you to be satisfied, and the Commission wants you
to be satisfied, and that’s why I keep repeating the question—whether
you have any other topic. I can see you are trying to recollect
something else—so that you will have covered everything in a conclusive
way.
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. As soon as you are satisfied on that, I’m going to ask the
other gentlemen a question, as I say, and as a matter of fact, I can do
that now while you are still thinking.
I will ask Mr. Fowler if there is any other question that he would like
to have asked of you at this time?
Mr. FOWLER. Sir, I know of no other questions that could be asked at
this time.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Tonahill, do you have any other questions you would
like to have asked?
Mr. TONAHILL. No, I don’t. I think it has been very, very
comprehensive. From my knowledge of the background, I think if you
asked Jack if he went to the Dallas Morning News that morning to
attend to business and protested vigorously the ad insulting President
Kennedy, if he protested because he’s a 100 percent patriotic American
citizen, I think he would, tell you “Yes” and he would be telling the
truth.
I think if you asked him why he went out about 4 o’clock in the morning
with George Senator and Larry and took that picture of the sign——
Mr. RUBY. Don’t mention anything about that—we’re in a bad spot down
here because of that.
Mr. TONAHILL (continuing). Of Chief Justice Earl Warren, he would tell
you that he did it because he was going to turn it over to the FBI and
some attorneys, because he thought it was un-American and he did it
because he’s a 100 percent patriotic American citizen, and he’s telling
the truth.
Mr. RUBY. I also went over to the post office to check on the box.
Mr. TONAHILL. The same thing on the box—to see there if the post office
numbers on the sign and in the newspaper ad meant the same person was
behind it, which would be the John Birchers and Communists both, and he
wanted to do something about it because he’s a 100 percent patriotic
American citizen, he would be telling the truth.
Mr. RUBY. I didn’t know about the ad—you’re talking about the ad
against President Kennedy?
Mr. TONAHILL. Yes.
Mr. RUBY. I didn’t refer to the John Birch—with reference to that.
Mr. TONAHILL. He wanted to see if they were connected together—the same
people.
Mr. RUBY. I didn’t mention the term “John Birch.” I just said, “I
wonder who could have placed that ad in there?”
Mr. TONAHILL. That’s all I have.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Alexander, do you have any questions to ask?
Mr. ALEXANDER. I have no questions to ask. I think it has been most
comprehensive.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby, did you go to the Dallas Morning News to protest
the advertisement that made derogatory statements about President
Kennedy?
Mr. RUBY. No; I went there to place my ad, because my business is
very—it’s very important that I’m there on the weekend, in the first
place. My business is conducted on a cash basis, and you can’t place
your ads unless you are there to pay for them.
Mr. SPECTER. You testified to that before?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I did.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any comment about the newspaper advertisement
which contained derogatory references to President Kennedy?
Mr. RUBY. We spoke about it up at the Morning News there, and I didn’t
want to make anything there about it because I knew they accepted it.
They accepted the ad. It would be rather embarrassing to say something
to them because they were responsible. The phones were ringing off the
desks with people canceling various ads and so on, but I did make—I
went to the Turf Club—that’s where I got all hepped up about it—over at
the Turf Lounge, and I went to the post office to find out who was it
that placed that ad, you know, and how it came about.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you satisfied then, Mr. Ruby, if we ask you one more
question on the polygraph, specifically, “Has all the information
which you have testified to today been the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth?”
Mr. RUBY. Plus the fact that I do want to get in my feeling for
Americanism and how I felt, because—remember—there may be unseen
persons that may not believe in my sincerity, so I want that
specifically asked—how I feel about my country I live in and so on,
unless it’s repeating something. Is it?
Mr. SPECTER. Well, we will ask it of you again so that there’s no
question about. We will formulate the question, “Do you consider
yourself to be a 100 percent American patriot?”
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And then we’ll ask the general question about whether
every bit of information you’ve given us today has been the whole truth?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. All right, will you proceed, Mr. Herndon and ask those two
questions.
Mr. RUBY. One more thing—shouldn’t you ask me, or isn’t it necessary,
why I suddenly was so carried away to get involved in this serious
crime?
Mr. ALEXANDER. Jack, that won’t work on the machine.
Mr. SPECTER. We have to ask you a “Yes” or “No” question, and
we’ve already covered that by asking you the question about Mrs.
Kennedy—whether you didn’t shoot Oswald to avoid having her come to
trial.
Mr. RUBY. Yes; that covers that.
Mr. SPECTER. That covers that subject.
Mr. RUBY. In other words, I can’t answer that truthfully and have
another reason for doing it; is that correct?
Mr. SPECTER. Correct.
Mr. RUBY. That would answer that?