Mr. HERNDON. Do you have knowledge, in other words?
Mr. RUBY. No; not knowledge—you’re putting me in a spot there. Repeat
it.
Mr. HERNDON. Let me ask this question the way I composed it originally.
“Do you know if any close friend or any member of your immediate family
ever attended a meeting of the Communist Party?”
Mr. RUBY. Yes. Meaning—I know they didn’t.
Mr. HERNDON. That’s a very valid point.
Mr. SPECTER. Let’s rephrase it then—“Did any member of your immediate
family or any close friend ever attend a meeting of the Communist
Party?”
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. How do you want that, Mr. Specter?
Mr. SPECTER. “Did any member of your immediate family or any close
friend ever attend a meeting of the Communist Party?”
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. I just had it slightly different. “Did any close friend
or any member of your immediate family ever attend a meeting of the
Communist Party?” Is that all right?
Mr. SPECTER. That phraseology is satisfactory.
Mr. HERNDON. Now, there’s one other question here and this one is a
little bit long, and we might want to discuss this question so Mr.
Ruby will understand it perfectly. “Do you know if any close friend or
any member of your immediate family has ever attended a meeting of any
group that advocates the violent overthrow of the Government?”
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I know that they didn’t.
Mr. SPECTER. Let’s rephrase the question, leaving out the “Do you
know”——
Mr. HERNDON. So that it will now be, “Did any—et cetera.”
Mr. SPECTER. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. All right, the question will read: “Did any close friend
or any member of your immediate family ever attend a meeting of any
group that advocates the violent overthrow of the Government?”
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. Those are the questions, unless Mr. Ruby has some question
on them.
Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that Mr. Tonahill and Mr. Alexander
are now out of the room and we may proceed with this series.
(Reporter’s note. 7:28 p.m.)
Mr. HERNDON. For the record, this is series No. 8.
All right, Mr. Ruby, I shall now put some pressure in the arm cuff
and if you will look straight ahead, sir, and answer the questions
truthfully “Yes” or “No,” and I will tell you when I am going to begin
asking questions.
The test will now begin.
“Is your last name Ruby?”
Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Have you ever knowingly attended any meetings of the
Communist Party or any other group that advocates violent overthrow of
the Government?”
Mr. RUBY. “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you legally change your last name?”
Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Is any member of your immediate family or any close
friend, a member of the Communist Party?”
Mr. RUBY. “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Were you in the Army Air Corps?”
Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Is any member of your immediate family or any close
friend a member of any group that advocates the violent overthrow of
the Government?”
Mr. RUBY. “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. Look straight ahead, please, sir. “Did any close friend
or any member of your immediate family ever attend a meeting of the
Communist Party?”
Mr. RUBY. “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Did any close friend or any member of your immediate
family ever attend a meeting of any group that advocates the violent
overthrow of the Government?”
Mr. RUBY. “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. That series is over. If you will relax, Mr. Ruby, I will
release the pressure on your arm.
(Reporter’s note: 7:33 p.m.)
Mr. HERNDON. I know these questions were a little long, but I feel that
you got the intent of them all right.
Mr. RUBY. Sure; I did.
Mr. HERNDON. That will complete series No. 8.
Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that we are now going to take a very
short recess, and resume in just a few moments.
Mr. HERNDON. Would you like to take this off just a minute and stand up
a little bit, unless you prefer me to leave it on?
Mr. RUBY. All right.
(Reporter’s note: Recess began 7:33 p.m. During the recess Mr. Fowler
and Mr. Ruby conferred out of the hearing of all in the room.)
Mr. SPECTER. It is now 7:55 p.m. and may the record show that we have
taken a 20-minute recess and have now reconvened for the last session.
Mr. RUBY. You’re not going to ask about the phone calls?
Mr. SPECTER. Those are going to be covered, Mr. Ruby.
Mr. RUBY. I know you are for me, Joe, I know.
Mr. SPECTER. Let us proceed at this point, Mr. Herndon, with the next
series of questions.
Mr. HERNDON. Are you tired, Mr. Ruby?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. Do you feel all right?
Mr. RUBY. Fine.
Mr. HERNDON. We shall then continue. I’m going to read off a good
number of questions here, and I’m going to ask them in a series called
9 and a series called 9a.
Mr. RUBY. All right.
Mr. HERNDON. And I’m not going to interject any of these other minor
questions. These are all direct questions and I want to make sure that
you understand what they are.
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you ever meet Oswald at your post office box?”
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you use your post office mailbox to do any business
with Mexico or Cuba?”
Mr. RUBY. No. Pardon me—why don’t you say, “Did you ever meet him at
the post office or at the club?” Wouldn’t that be good too?
Mr. SPECTER. We have asked you if you ever knew him before, and now
we’re focusing on this.
Mr. RUBY. Oh—“How many times did he come up to the club?”—that’s
something else. Also, somebody said that they saw Tippit, I, this Mr.
Lane stated that he saw Tippit, myself, and Oswald at the club—so go
ahead, I don’t want to throw you off.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, we will add a question there at that point, such as
this: “Did you ever meet with Officer Tippit and Oswald at your club?”
Mr. HERNDON. Do you want that “Oswald and” or “or”?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes; we do. Use “and.”
Mr. RUBY. The first thing about that post office box—how do we know
whether it’s really authentic or the man had the box there or not? It
could have been placed there at a later date?
Mr. ALEXANDER. It was right, Jack. He had it. I saw the key myself and
it had “X” number on the box.
Mr. RUBY. How come it never come out before then? Why didn’t it come
out still before that?
Mr. ALEXANDER. It did.
Mr. RUBY. No; it didn’t come out until a long time—until just recently.
It just came out about a week ago.
Mr. ALEXANDER. They just didn’t feature it—it was just overlooked. I
saw the key that night.
Mr. RUBY. But Bill, I know one thing—I know that box could have been
purchased at a later date, after Oswald’s death and could make it look
like it’s close to mine; I know that.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, the situation there isn’t really directly germane
here.
Mr. RUBY. It looks very bad for me, though, I know that.
Mr. ALEXANDER. No; Jack, I saw the key Friday night.
Mr. SPECTER. We will cover the subject matter here, so you will have a
chance under the polygraph examination to cover it.
Mr. RUBY. You probably saw the key, but I know the affiliation with
the Government, that you can always get a box at a later date, if you
wanted to do that.
Mr. ALEXANDER. Jack, on Friday night that key was photographed,
inventoried, and——
Mr. RUBY. What Friday night?
Mr. ALEXANDER. The Friday night of the assassination.
Mr. RUBY. You mean it was known—the number of the box—that Friday night?
Mr. ALEXANDER. Yes, sir; sure was.
Mr. RUBY. Did the public know about it and everybody else?
Mr. ALEXANDER. I’m sure they did.
Mr. RUBY. All right; go ahead.
Mr. HERNDON. I will proceed, Mr. Ruby. “Did you do business with Castro
Cuba?”
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. “Was your trip to Cuba solely for pleasure?”
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you keep $2,200 in cash on you because you didn’t
have a chance to get to the bank?” Is that question clear?
Mr. RUBY. Let me go off the record. This is going to be ad libbing,
Miss, so can you hold it off on this? Can you hold it off or do you
have to put it down?
COURT REPORTER. Mr. Ruby, you have to ask that man over there—Mr.
Specter.
Mr. RUBY. All right.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you want to go off the record, Mr. Ruby?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. All right, off the record at this point.
(Explanation by Mr. Ruby at this point regarding the $2,200 cash item
previously mentioned—off the record.)
Mr. SPECTER. Back on the record. Mr. Ruby, that’s a perfectly good
explanation, and I think it would be better if we put that on the
record as to this point, if it’s all right with you.
Mr. RUBY. Yes; but it’s too crazy, mixed up, the way I was saying it.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, essentially what you’re saying makes good sense.
What you’re saying is that you don’t want to have it in a condition
where somebody can levy on it and get ahold of it before your creditors
got it.
Mr. RUBY. Well. I had the total cash for both clubs, but then, this was
Friday night. Now, knowing my payroll at the Carousel runs to $1,600 or
$1,400 on a Sunday night, and the Vegas Club on Saturday night because
we close Sunday, consequently that money would be absorbed completely
in another night or two.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby, that makes good sense. I think that in view of
what your answer has been, it is preferable for us to put it on the
record rather than to have any suggestion that anything that has been
off the record is in anyway damaging or that we’re keeping anything off
the record that ought to be on the record.
Mr. RUBY. Do you want me to go through that again, now? Do you want me
to go through what I said to you now?
Mr. SPECTER. That’s right. Now, Miss Odell Oliver, will you go on
the record with Mr. Ruby now, and since Mr. Ruby has made a brief
explanation with regard to the last question, and at my suggestion
he is willing to put it on the record, and he will now repeat the
substance of what he has previously said.
Mr. RUBY. All right. Due to my sister being ill and away from running
the Vegas Club, I had in my possession for both clubs for operation,
for payrolls and everything else, et cetera, et cetera.
Just a week prior to that I had purchased a safe which I knew it was
necessary to have, and we already had—my maintenanceman had built the
forms for the safe, and we wanted further information as to where to
place this safe in the club where it would be safest where burglars
couldn’t get at it. We called a Mr. Joe Cody of the police department
to advise us where to place the thing. Consequently the safe had not
been placed in cement as yet, and I had been carrying the total amount
of cash for both clubs, the total capital, which include my purchases
if there were to be any made, and the payroll for both clubs, and any
accumulated excise tax money from the beginning of the last quarter for
both clubs. So, hence, that money belonged solely to the operation of
the Vegas Club and the Carousel.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby, then we will rephrase that question to this and
simply state—“Have you now told the truth about why you carried $2,200
in cash?”
Mr. RUBY. Yes; but you have a reason for asking me that—whether
that was somebody else’s money or something—yes. All that money is
specifically in relationship to the operation of both clubs.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, we could rephrase it, “Have you now told the truth
concerning why you carried around $2,200 in cash?” and we will cover
the substance of the matter in that question.
Mr. RUBY. In other words, you don’t want to leave it in your apartment
because somebody might break in, but you feel it’s safe, especially if
I’m armed anyway, not that I can handle a gun that well, or whatever it
may be, but somehow you feel—it’s true I had the safe installed because
I thought that would be safer to put any of my possessions in. In other
words, it’s a cash operation. In other words, $2,200 in one week is a
good return anyway.
Mr. HERNDON. I’ll proceed, Mr. Ruby, if you are ready?
Mr. RUBY. All right.
Mr. HERNDON. “Did any foreign influence cause you to shoot Oswald?”
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you shoot Oswald because of any influence of the
underworld?”
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, by the word “foreign” in those questions, Mr. Ruby,
we intend to convey to you—by Russia, by Cuba, or by any other foreign
government, so that you may understand the full import of that question.
Mr. RUBY. No—but the whole thing was based on—when was the first time
you thought of it—in other words, that Sunday morning, so in other
words—well, we’ll get to that.
Mr. HERNDON. “No” is the answer?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you shoot Oswald because of a labor union influence?”
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. I will now rephrase that, if I may. “Did you shoot Oswald
because of labor union influence?”
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. “Did any long-distance telephone calls which you made
before the assassination of the President have anything to do with the
assassination?”
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. “Did any of your long-distance telephone calls concern the
shooting of Oswald?”
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you shoot Oswald in order to save Mrs. Kennedy the
ordeal of a trial?”
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you know Officer Tippit?”
Mr. RUBY. This is off the record for a minute, please?
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby, I think it would be unwise for us to go off the
record on this question.
Mr. RUBY. Well, all right. There were three Officer Tippits in the
police department. I only knew one.
Mr. SPECTER. Was that Officer J. D. Tippit?
Mr. RUBY. He’s the one who was slain?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes—Officer J. D. Tippit?
Mr. RUBY. No; I don’t think he was the one.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you know Officer Tippit who was slain?
Mr. RUBY. No; I don’t know him. You see, I know so many officers and
there are three Tippits, but I know one Tippit, and which one that
is—if I would see him personally and see his physical features and
knowing him—of course, I didn’t have time to—I was incarcerated too
soon to find out. Actually, the Tippit I knew, who worked at special
service in the police department—you know which one I’m talking about,
Bill?
Mr. ALEXANDER. Yes; but that’s not the one.
Mr. RUBY. I don’t know this Tippit.
Mr. ALEXANDER. This boy had always been a radio patrolman.
Mr. RUBY. Well, I don’t know that I had ever seen this fellow before—I
had never seen him before. I may have seen him before but I didn’t know
him.
Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Ruby, if I ask a question, “Did you know the Officer
Tippit slain?” Can you reasonably answer that truthfully “Yes” or “No”?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. I mean—you can answer it without any problem mentally?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; that’s what I mean.
Mr. SPECTER. To state it differently, you are able to answer whether or
not you knew Officer J. D. Tippit?
Mr. RUBY. Well, I can’t answer “Yes” or “No” and say whether or not.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, I want to be sure that your last answer is
responsive so that we are clear.
Mr. RUBY. Well, I gave the answer “No.”
Mr. ALEXANDER. Let’s put it this way—“Did you know the Tippit that was
killed?”
Mr. RUBY. Repeat that question?
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you know the Tippit that was killed?”
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you tell the truth about relaying the message to Ray
Brantley to get McWillie a few guns?”
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you come out of the assembly room on Friday night to
get the telephone number of KLIF?”
Mr. RUBY. Not come out of the assembly room—I went to the assembly room.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you go to the assembly room?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. On Friday night—in order to get the telephone number of
KLIF?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. All right, we want to make that clear. We want to make
that correction.
Mr. RUBY. Did you know that was part of my story, did you know that?
Mr. HERNDON. The question will be worded, Mr. Ruby, “Did you go to the
assembly room on Friday night to get the telephone number of KLIF?”
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. That’s clear and concise for you?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you ever meet with Oswald and Officer Tippit at your
apartment?”
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. Here again the Officer Tippit is the one we’re talking
about that was killed.
Mr. RUBY. Right.
Mr. HERNDON. All right, Mr. Ruby, those are the questions and we will
proceed on those.
Mr. SPECTER. Fine. Let’s proceed with this series.
Mr. ALEXANDER. What was that last question?
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you ever meet with Oswald and Officer Tippit at your
apartment?”
Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that Mr. Alexander and Mr. Tonahill
have left the room.
Mr. HERNDON. Do you feel all right now, Mr. Ruby?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. Are you tired?
Mr. RUBY. No.
(Reporter’s note: 8:10 p.m.)
Mr. HERNDON. All right, we can continue. If we may do so, we can save a
little time, I’ll go ahead and ask you about seven or eight questions.
Mr. RUBY. All right.
Mr. HERNDON. And I’ll just stop so that I can let the pressure off your
arm.
Mr. RUBY. Don’t worry about me. I’m in good shape. The point is—I want
to get as much in as we can. I don’t want you to miss anything, because
there’s a lot of pertinent stuff.
Mr. HERNDON. All right, Mr. Ruby, if you will sit back a little bit
higher, and if you will uncross your legs. Take a deep breath.
Mr. RUBY. All right.
Mr. HERNDON. And relax and exhale.
For the record, this will be series 9. If you will look straight ahead
and answer these questions truthfully “Yes” or “No.” We will now begin.
(Reporter’s note: 8:12 p.m.)
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you ever meet Oswald at your post office box?”
Mr. RUBY. “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you use your post office mailbox to do any business
with Mexico or Cuba?”
Mr. RUBY. “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you do business with Castro-Cuba?”
Mr. RUBY. “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Was your trip to Cuba solely for pleasure?”
Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Have you now told us the truth concerning why you carried
$2,200 in cash on you?”
Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Did any foreign influence cause you to shoot Oswald?”
Mr. RUBY. “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you shoot Oswald because of any influence of the
underworld?”
Mr. RUBY. “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. I’m going to stop here a moment, sir, and release the
pressure on your arm and you just relax for a moment. Then I shall
begin again in a moment.
Mr. RUBY. Okay.
(Reporter’s note: 8:15 p.m.)
Mr. HERNDON. Just relax, Mr. Ruby.
Does your arm feel all right?
Mr. RUBY. Fine—I’m all right.
Mr. HERNDON. I will continue this next series of questions and it will
be listed as series 9a.
(Reporter’s note: 8:17 p.m.)
Mr. HERNDON. We will begin again.
“Did you shoot Oswald because of a labor union influence?”
Mr. RUBY. “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Did any long-distance telephone calls which you made
before the assassination of the President have anything to do with the
assassination?”
Mr. RUBY. “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Did any of your long-distance telephone calls concern the
shooting of Oswald?”
Mr. RUBY. “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you shoot Oswald in order to save Mrs. Kennedy the
ordeal of a trial?”
Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you know the Tippit that was killed?”
Mr. RUBY. “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you tell the truth about relaying the message to Ray
Brantley to get McWillie a few guns?”
Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you go to the assembly room on Friday night to get
the telephone number of KLIF?”
Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you ever meet with Oswald and Officer Tippit at your
club?”
Mr. RUBY. “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. That completes that series. I will release that pressure
and you can now relax.
(Reporter’s note: 8:20 p.m.)
Mr. HERNDON. You seem to be relaxed and feeling fine.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you ready, Mr. Herndon?
Mr. HERNDON. Yes; that completes that series.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Tonahill and Mr. Alexander have returned to the room.
Mr. HERNDON. Shall I go right into the next series?
Mr. SPECTER. Go right into the series. We just did series 9 and 9a, and
we are now going to series 10.
Mr. HERNDON. Yes; we just have a few more questions.
Mr. RUBY. That’s wonderful, except there are a few things that I think
you’ve left out.
Mr. SPECTER. Yes, Mr. Ruby. If you have additional questions you want
asked, we will do our best to cover anything additional when we finish.
Mr. HERNDON. Here are the next questions which I would like to ask
you, Mr. Ruby, on the next series. Again, I want to make sure that you
understand each and every one of them.
“Were you at the Parkland Hospital at any time on Friday?”
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you say anything at the time you shot Oswald?”
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. “Have any members of your family been physically harmed
because of what you did?”
Mr. RUBY. Not up to this point; no.
Mr. HERNDON. Then, the question can be answered in your mind either
“Yes” or “No”?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. You can answer it?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. “Do you think members of your family are now in danger
because of what you did?”
Mr. RUBY. Yes, sir.
Mr. HERNDON. “Is Mr. Fowler in danger because he is defending you?”
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. “Did ‘Blackie’ Harrison speak to you just before you shot
Oswald?”
Mr. RUBY. I don’t know—so, I’ll say “No.” Oh, I see what you mean.