Mr. RUBY. Joe, you’re not my attorney any more. We know it. We
understand one another, please. You’re not helping me.
Mr. FOWLER. Let’s just direct our attention right now, Jack, to the
things that are near to you. Why do you want Mr. Alexander here?
Mr. RUBY. I feel I don’t want him to think I’m holding out on anything.
I don’t want him to have any idea that I’m reluctant to answer things
in front of him, believe me.
Mr. FOWLER. Listen, at some future date—yes. Perhaps in a trial,
another trial, yes. When you are on the witness stand, if you are able
to go to the witness stand, perhaps these questions will be directed
to you at that time, and you can make a full disclosure before a jury,
but I respectfully request that you do not do it in the presence of a
district attorney.
Mr. RUBY. But Clayton, they know all these questions already. Henry
Wade, I spoke to, and I told him all this.
Mr. FOWLER. Well, if he knows them already, then why not just let him
stay out? You’re not trying to impress him, are you? Do you think that
he can do anything to help you right now?
Mr. RUBY. No, no; but the thing is that I have a few other thoughts in
mind, as you well know about.
Mr. FOWLER. What are they, Jack?
Mr. RUBY. That I spoke to you about for your consideration.
Mr. FOWLER. Jack, I’m not worried, I’m not concerned about anybody
trying to do away with me. This is the least of my worries. Nobody has
threatened me about this thing. Nobody has coerced me in any way.
Mr. RUBY. I want harmony, that’s what I want. I want harmony with you
and the district attorney’s office.
Mr. FOWLER. Well, we can’t harmonize over your situation, I’m sorry.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, the point we got to was the question of getting the
substantive information out before going on with the test. Did you
tell anyone that you intended to shoot Oswald?
Mr. HERNDON. You mean—before?
Mr. SPECTER. Well, I don’t know if we’re going to get an answer to it
or not.
Mr. FOWLER. Jack, now the question that is being directed to you at
this time—well, go right ahead.
Mr. RUBY. Yes: Sunday morning.
Mr. SPECTER. And whom did you tell?
Mr. RUBY. George Senator.
Mr. SPECTER. And where were you at the time you discussed it with him?
Mr. RUBY. In my apartment.
Mr. SPECTER. And state in as precise words as you can remember, just
what you said to him and he said to you at that time?
Mr. RUBY. Well, he didn’t say anything—the funny part—he was reading
the paper and I doubt if he even recalled me saying it. I have to
elaborate on it, but I was so carried away emotionally that I said—I
don’t know how I said it—I didn’t say it in any vulgar manner—I said,
“If something happened to this person, that then Mrs. Kennedy won’t
have to come back for the trial.” That’s all I said. Now, would you
mind asking me on that particular point? That happened Sunday morning.
That’s the only time any thought ever came to my mind, because that
morning I read some articles in the newspaper that she would have to
come back to trial.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever say to anybody, “I am going to shoot Oswald,”
or anything to the effect that, “I am going to shoot or kill him”?
Mr. RUBY. No; I just made the statement—that’s the only thing I said.
Mr. SPECTER. That statement you made to George Senator, that’s the only
thing, that’s the closest you came to saying it?
Mr. RUBY. That Sunday morning before I left my apartment.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever tell Randolph Paul you were going to shoot
him?
Mr. RUBY. I don’t even know a Randolph Paul.
Mr. SPECTER. How about Breck Wall?
Mr. RUBY. I know I never said that to Breck Wall.
Mr. SPECTER. Perhaps the name was Ralph Paul. Did you ever say it to
Ralph Paul?
Mr. RUBY. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, let’s prepare the question this way, if we may, Mr.
Herndon: “Aside from anything you said to George Senator, did you ever
tell anyone you intended to shoot Oswald?”
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, is that formulation acceptable for purposes of the
test, Mr. Herndon?
Mr. HERNDON. I want to make sure I get it correct.
Mr. SPECTER. “Aside from anything you said to George Senator, did you
ever tell anyone else you intended to shoot Oswald?”
Mr. RUBY. In the flippant way I said it, I doubt if he’d even—you
know—the poor guy may not even have remembered it. We never discussed
it after that.
Mr. SPECTER. What was the exact time you recollect you said that to him?
Mr. RUBY. I don’t know—it was about 10:15 Sunday morning.
Mr. SPECTER. Approximately?
Mr. RUBY. Well, you know—10 minutes either way.
Mr. SPECTER. All right, Mr. Fowler, we will phrase the question in that
way, but that phraseology of the question carries certain implications
which you understand.
Mr. RUBY. May I repeat that question once more to make sure it’s
accurate?
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Alexander can come back in.
(Mr. Alexander at this time entered the room.)
Mr. SPECTER. We have now formulated the question, Mr. Alexander, and
Mr. Herndon will now read it, together with the other questions he
intends to ask in this series.
Mr. HERNDON. The question is, “Aside from anything you said to George
Senator, did you ever tell anyone else that you intended to shoot
Oswald?”
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. That will be one of the questions on the next series.
Mr. Specter, do you want that to be in lieu of this one or in addition
to this question?
Mr. SPECTER. Let’s ask it in lieu of that question. Strike the other
question, the original question.
Mr. HERNDON. Strike the original question that commences, “Did you tell
anyone you were thinking about”?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes; that’s the one we’ve been talking about.
Mr. ALEXANDER. Is this still series 3?
Mr. HERNDON. We’re still on series 3. Mr. Alexander. As a matter of
fact, if it’s all right with you gentleman, I’d like to start right
over again on series 3.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby, I think we have that one area resolved.
Mr. HERNDON. I’m going to ask you as we said originally—before—back in
the testimony. “Between the assassination and the shooting, did anybody
you know tell you they knew Oswald?”
Then, the other relative or pertinent question here will be, “Aside
from anything you said to George Senator, did you ever tell anyone else
that you intended to shoot Oswald?”
And, in addition to those questions, I will ask on this series the
following questions——
Mr. RUBY. Why don’t you add—in—let’s get the time element in there,
too, because that was Sunday morning.
Mr. HERNDON. Well, I don’t want to make these questions too long.
Mr. RUBY. I know, but I want this because somebody might think that I
mentioned it 2 days prior to that.
Mr. SPECTER. We can add if you want to. “Aside from anything you said
to George Senator on Sunday morning, did you ever tell anyone else that
you intended to shoot Oswald?”
Mr. RUBY. OK.
Mr. HERNDON. All right, we’re going to insert after “George
Senator”—“on Sunday morning.” Here again, the Sunday morning being that
time after you woke up and prior to noon.
Mr. RUBY. Remember, it was the flippant way I said it that I doubt if
the poor soul remembered it.
Mr. HERNDON. The other questions in this series will be as follows,
Mr. Ruby. Here again are some of the irrelevant questions. “Is your
last name Ruby? Do you live in Dallas?” I’m going to ask you “Are you
married?” Just for the record, I understand you’re single, so you could
answer that “No.” “Were you in the military service?”
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. I’m going to ask you this question: “While in service,”
and I mean the military service, “did you receive any disciplinary
action?” Do you understand that question?
Mr. RUBY. In other words, “While you were in the military, were you
hurt?”
Mr. HERNDON. No; Mr. Ruby, disciplinary action. Were you
court-martialed, captains’ mast, or any disciplinary action?
Mr. RUBY. None whatsoever.
Mr. HERNDON. There’s one other relevant question I want to ask on this
series and I put it as simply as I can. “Did you shoot Oswald in order
to silence him?”
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. One other question: “Have you ever served time in jail?”
Now, what I mean by that question, Mr. Ruby, is not this present
custody but any other time. “Did you ever actually serve time in jail?”
Mr. RUBY. I have served 30 days—I mean—that would answer it.
Mr. HERNDON. Then, you can answer that?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. If that comes to mind, you could say, “Yes.”
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. Now, let me make sure we’ve gone over these questions. Do
you feel all right, Mr. Ruby?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. All right, we will proceed.
Mr. RUBY. That 30 days embarrasses me, because it was with reference to
selling some song sheets back in the old depression days, and it wasn’t
for anything criminal. It was something that I didn’t realize at the
time there were copyrights on those songs. So, I don’t want to become a
felon just because—outside of what I am now.
Mr. HERNDON. Well, these questions, I don’t mean to embarrass you,
Mr. Ruby. I want to ask these questions because they’re going to help
me later on, and I want to get some of these other questions on your
background. Was that in Chicago?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. When you explained about the song sheets?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I made a pretty good living at that time.
Mr. HERNDON. You still recall that and it embarrasses you?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. I will be ready to start series 3 in a moment.
Mr. SPECTER. All right, if Mr. Alexander and Mr. Tonahill will leave
the room, we will proceed with series 3.
May the record show that Mr. Alexander and Mr. Tonahill are now absent.
(Reporter’s note: 3:58 p.m.)
Mr. HERNDON. Of course, we have been moving around and talking,
Mr. Ruby, I’m going to make a few minor adjustments here. Are you
comfortable, sir?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. Now, I’m going to put this up a little higher on your
chest, and I want you to lean back and relax. Do you want to put your
feet flat on the floor during the test, if you will.
All right. I again will tell you when we actually start the test. I’m
going to put a little pressure on the arm, and once again, on these
questions, if you will answer them simply “Yes” or “No” truthfully.
Will you look straight ahead, please, sir.
(Reporter’s note: 3:59 p.m.)
Mr. HERNDON. The test will now begin. Look straight ahead, Mr. Ruby.
“Is your last name Ruby?”
Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Do you live in Dallas?”
Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Between the assassination and the shooting, did anybody
you know tell you they knew Oswald?”
Mr. RUBY. “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Are you married?”
Mr. RUBY. “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Aside from anything you said to George Senator on Sunday
morning, did you ever tell anyone else that you intended to shoot
Oswald?”
Mr. RUBY. “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Were you in the military service?”
Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”
Mr. HERNDON. “While in service did you receive any disciplinary action?”
Mr. RUBY. “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you shoot Oswald in order to silence him?”
Mr. RUBY. “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Have you ever served time in jail?”
Mr. RUBY (no response).
Mr. HERNDON. The test is over. Sit still for a moment and we will
release the pressure on your arm.
Do you feel a little better when I release that pressure?
Mr. RUBY. When you elaborate on “serving time”, 30 days isn’t serving
time.
Mr. HERNDON. I was going to ask you to explain that, and you followed
instructions explicitly there.
Then, actually in explanation to that, this 30 days to you were
insignificant?
Mr. RUBY. Well, yes, but I explained that.
Mr. HERNDON. That’s all right. I have to ask these questions.
Mr. RUBY. To serve time is when you refer to a man being in the
penitentiary.
Mr. HERNDON. Now, there are a few questions I want to ask him with
regard to that series.
Mr. SPECTER. Go ahead.
Mr. HERNDON. Just two points I want to clarify for my own use here.
Mr. Ruby, I asked you. “Are you married?” and you replied “No.” Could
you tell me if anything went on in your mind at the time you responded
“No”?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I was thinking of the young girl, that had I been
married I wouldn’t have been in this trouble. I guess that’s what
flashed back in my mind.
Mr. HERNDON. Is this a former sweetheart?
Mr. RUBY. Yes. What else?
Mr. HERNDON. I just wanted to get your explanation at that particular
point?
Mr. RUBY. You noticed something there?
Mr. HERNDON. Did you feel anything?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I knew I wasn’t—something was working on me when you
asked me that. I would probably have been living in another part of the
city, and I wouldn’t have been involved in this.
Mr. HERNDON. Do you recall the girl’s name?
Mr. RUBY. Yes—Alice Nichols.
Mr. HERNDON. And how long ago was this that you were acquainted with
her?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, for many years, and I guess we severed relations in
1959—“relations”—I meant our company.
Mr. HERNDON. That’s the last time you were dating?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; we were engaged and so on.
Mr. HERNDON. You never actually married this young lady?
Mr. RUBY. No, sir. That’s why you see me in a moment of despair—like I
am.
Mr. HERNDON. Did you ever consider marrying her?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; yes.
Mr. HERNDON. All right, that clarifies that question for me. One other
area I’d like you to speak frankly and freely on, and here again it
gets back to this military service. I asked you, “While in the military
service, did you ever receive any disciplinary action?”
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. Did you ever get in any trouble at all while you were in
the service that came to your mind during that question?
Mr. RUBY. When you say “trouble”?
Mr. HERNDON. Disciplinary action for trouble?
Mr. RUBY. No; I have never been called down for anything. I may have
had a brawl with another soldier.
Mr. HERNDON. Did you while you were in the service ever have a fight?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; but when you speak of “disciplinary” is when you go
before a court-martial or the colonel calls you in or something happens.
Mr. HERNDON. Were you called in before the commanding officer?
Mr. RUBY. Sure; but it’s not important enough to answer. Evidently,
you’re getting a pretty good reading?
Mr. HERNDON. I’m having no technical difficulty with regard to giving
the test.
Mr. RUBY. I wish you would prove to my chief here, over there, how I
stand with you (referring to Mr. Holman).
Mr. HERNDON. I want to study these very carefully, of course, but you
have been very cooperative, as far as running the actual examination.
That will complete series 3.
Mr. SPECTER. Fine, I will call the gentlemen in.
Let the record show that Mr. Tonahill and Mr. Alexander have returned.
Mr. HERNDON. We will go on to another series now. I am going to run a
little different type of examination, Mr. Ruby, if you still feel like
you want to continue. Do you want to take a break?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, I want to go on completely.
Mr. HERNDON. You are not tired?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. This next one will be relatively short, and it won’t take
too long.
I’m going to ask you these questions somewhat in sequence and in
consecutive order. There are five of them. They can be answered simply
by “yes” or “no.”
“Did you first decide to shoot Oswald on Friday night?”
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you first decide to shoot Oswald on Saturday morning?”
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you first decide to shoot Oswald Sunday morning?”
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. And last, I’ll ask you, “Have you answered all questions
truthfully?”
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. In addition to those questions I’ve just asked, I’m going
to ask, again to establish identity, “Is your first name Jack?”
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. “Is your last name Ruby?”
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. I will ask you of those questions that I have just related
to you, those pertinent five questions in consecutive order, with
considerable spacing and time between—I believe you understand what I
mean by Friday night?
Mr. RUBY. Definitely—the period of meditation.
Mr. HERNDON. That’s right—in the evening after 6 o’clock, and Saturday
morning we consider as being that time from when you wake up until you
have lunch, and I think you understand these questions.
Mr. RUBY. Also, is there any way you can ask me if my family had known
of my doing anything like that?
Mr. HERNDON. We may possibly get into that area or perhaps take that up
with Mr. Specter.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, actually, Mr. Ruby, we have a great many questions
to ask you and there are certain limitations on the test.
Mr. HERNDON. I am going to proceed on this particular series now.
Mr. SPECTER. All right. Mr. Alexander and Mr. Tonahill are leaving the
room, and may the record show both have now departed.
(Reporter’s note: 4.08 p.m.)
Mr. HERNDON. Did you want to tell me something before, Mr. Ruby, before
I start?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. Again, I will tell you when the test begins.
Will you let the record show that I have these designated as series 3a.
All right, do you feel all right now, Mr. Ruby?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. Sit perfectly still and try to concentrate and look
straight ahead and answer the questions truthfully “Yes” or “No.”