Mr. FOWLER (no response).
Mr. HERNDON. I will bow to whatever Mr. Specter or counsel wants to do
in this regard.
Mr. RUBY. Fowler, I hate to dispute with you, but let me do it this way?
Mr. FOWLER. Well, Jack, again, Mr. Alexander is here and again I
tell you this—that the answers to some of these questions could be
absolutely very detrimental to you.
Mr. RUBY. They can’t be.
Mr. FOWLER. I’m talking about from a legal standpoint. Now, morally,
I know how you feel and you want to do the best you can for the
Commission.
Mr. RUBY. I will.
Mr. FOWLER. But by the same token, this gentleman over here [referring
to Mr. Alexander] represents the State, who at this time is not
representing you. Now, if we could allow Mr. Alexander to have the
benefit of the nature of the questions, with the exception of the
answers—if this is what Jack wants—but I do not want Mr. Alexander to
have the benefit of the answers.
Mr. SPECTER. The test may be conducted either way. As Mr. Herndon
has explained, he has a slight preference to have the answers, but
the ultimate decision on that is up to Mr. Ruby and his counsel. The
Commission will proceed in either manner.
Mr. RUBY. It’s unfortunate that my attorney, Mr. Fowler, don’t see as
I do. I would like to give every cooperation without the slightest
fraction of interference. That’s why I requested that. You won’t let me
do it that way, huh, Fowler?
Mr. FOWLER. I’m requesting that you do not, Jack.
Mr. HERNDON. It will be no problem.
(Addressing the court reporter.) Do you have any problem hearing?
COURT REPORTER. If Mr. Ruby would talk just a little bit louder it
would be fine.
Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Ruby, I have placed all these questions in a form
so that they are very short and concise and can be answered only by
“Yes” or “No,” and that’s the way we have to ask a question during a
polygraph examination, but I’ll go over them with you and give you
an idea of what they’re going to be. During the normal series, I’m
going to ask several questions, of course, which are pertinent to the
Commission’s investigation, but I will also ask you several questions
which more or less just deal with your identity, your background and
your name, so you will have two types of questions that I will ask.
Now, the first question I’m going to ask you under series 1, which is
rather pertinent, and I want you to know that I’m going to ask it, and
I’m going to phrase it as simply as I can.
“Did you know Oswald before November 22, 1963?”
Now, what I mean by “know” is did you have any personal acquaintance of
this individual, any personal acquaintance? Have you ever seen him, did
you have any conversation with him? In other words, as you would say,
“Well, I know that person.”
Mr. RUBY. Should I answer that?
Mr. FOWLER. Not now, Jack.
Mr. HERNDON. That question will be asked or repeated, and so you and
I will understand what we want, I’ll repeat it. “Did you know Oswald
before November 22, 1963?”
Mr. RUBY. Right.
Mr. HERNDON. Another question that I will ask in series 1, after I get
the instrument adjusted, and it will be short and simple and answerable
only by “Yes” or “No.”
“Did you assist Oswald in the assassination?”
Do you understand that question?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; it is very clear.
Mr. HERNDON. I tried to make them as short as possible and as clear as
possible. Again, I’m going to ask you just as a matter of format here,
“Did you take any medication this morning?” You have already answered
that question, but that will be one of the questions I will ask you.
I’m also going to ask on series 1, just to give you a little time to
relax here, some of these rather simple questions such as: “Did you
voluntarily request this test?”
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. You have already indicated your answer to that. And, I
will ask a rather obvious question as a matter of identity, “Is your
first name Jack? Is your last name Ruby?” These types of questions will
be asked and I want to make sure I cover each and every one. I’m going
to ask you, “Do you use the middle name ‘Leon’?” I understand you do;
is that correct?
Mr. RUBY. No; very rarely, very rarely.
Mr. HERNDON. All right, you can answer that as you see fit, when I
ask it on the test. I will ask you this question, and I want to ask
this as a matter of record for me because I interview a lot of people:
“Have you ever been arrested?” Now, what I mean in this regard, and
I’ll probably change that phraseology to “Have you ever been arrested
before? Prior to the shooting, have you ever been arrested?” Now, what
I mean by “arrested,” Mr. Ruby, is were you ever actually placed under
arrest and brought before some type of magistrate and charged with any
crime. That question will also be on the first examination. Those are
the questions I’m going to ask you. Do you have any questions about
them, sir? Are they clear and concise to you?
Mr. RUBY. When you speak of the last question about a crime, I’ve never
been involved in a crime, so if you’ve been arrested for selling beer
after hours, does that qualify as an answer too?
Mr. HERNDON. Well, what I mean by “arrested” is if you were formally
charged with something?
Mr. RUBY. Like a felony?
Mr. HERNDON. Well, any type of a formal arrest, wherein you actually
were arrested and charged before a magistrate, of offending a law
that’s on the record, either of a community, a city, or the State.
Mr. RUBY. You don’t necessarily have to have been found guilty or
anything, just the point of being arrested, is that right?
Mr. HERNDON. Now, let me inject this, Mr. Ruby. If these questions
when I ask them, if you have something in doubt in your mind of how to
answer it “Yes” or “No,” just refrain from answering it, and we’ll go
back after the test and discuss it.
Mr. RUBY. Very well.
Mr. HERNDON. In other words, I want you to be able to freely and
truthfully say “Yes” or “No” to these questions. If one of them leaves
any area of doubt in your mind and you are hesitant to answer it, feel
free not to say anything, and we will just proceed, and after I stop
the instrument, I will then go over that question with you. All right,
sir?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. All right, Mr. Ruby, I’ll just briefly hook up the
instrument and I’ll probably run it for a little while just to get it
adjusted to you, and inasmuch as you’ve never had a polygraph before, I
will explain the instrument’s parts to you. You can see here, Mr. Ruby,
I have a rubber tube and I’m going to place that around your chest,
sir. This is what we call the pneumograph and that will accurately
record you respiratory pattern as you inhale and exhale. Would you be
kind enough to raise your arms, sir?
Mr. RUBY (complied with request of Mr. Herndon).
(Reporter’s note: 2:58 p.m.)
Mr. HERNDON. Now, as you can see, as you inhale the tube stretches, and
as you exhale it decreases in size and I will have a tracing of it on
the polygraph.
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. During the examination and as we run the test, I would
appreciate it if you would sit perfectly relaxed, rather straight in
the chair, with both of your feet flat on the floor. Now, that will
record, during the interview, the tracing of your breathing, and I want
you for this reason to breathe perfectly normal and perfectly relaxed.
Now, the next thing I want to put on will be on your hand and I’ll put
it on your right hand here. I notice you have one finger cut off on
that hand. What happened there, Mr. Ruby?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, running a nightclub you get involved in various
altercations.
Mr. HERNDON. Now, this next component that I want you to see will be
what we call the Galvanic Skin Response, GSR. I’m going to place these
on your fingers, and actually all this simply does, through these
instruments and the electronic processes, is to record any variance
in the electrical conductivity or the resistance of your skin. It’s
helpful to me in this examination. Your hands are very good. They are
not sweating a bit. Is that too tight?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. Is it uncomfortable?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. All right, Mr. Ruby. Now, neither one of these two
components will you feel at all. That will be no problem at all.
Mr. RUBY. All right.
Mr. HERNDON. Now, the next component that I will put on your left
arm, because it’s closer to your heart, and this is the cardiograph
cuff, and this is going to give me an accurate tracing of any relative
changes in your blood pressure. These will just be relative changes. I
won’t be able to necessarily know what your blood pressure is. I will
have relative blood pressure changes, and I will also have on a chart a
change in any heartbeat or heart rate you might have.
Now, I am going to record all these physiological responses as we
discuss the questions, and as you answer them I will have an indication
of what is taking place physiologically, what is going on in your
physical system, and which will assist me in interpreting whether or
not you may be deceiving with regard to the question.
Mr. RUBY. What is your name, please, sir?
Mr. WOOD. Wood. I’m with the FBI.
Mr. RUBY. Where is Shanklin, I thought he was supposed to be here?
Mr. WOOD. He is in town but he is not here.
Mr. RUBY. Isn’t Mr. Shanklin the chief?
Mr. HERNDON. Do you want to relax your arm, Mr. Ruby? Now, do you have
any questions about what I’ve done so far, Mr. Ruby?
Mr. RUBY. No. Do you want me to relate my story to you now?
Mr. HERNDON. No; I want you to sit perfectly still. There will be no
conversation, and I’m going to get the instrument adjusted to you. That
will take only a few minutes, so just sit and try not to move. I’m not
going to ask you any questions at this time. I just want to adjust the
machine to you.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Herndon, have you now covered all the preliminaries up
to the point of asking the questions?
Mr. HERNDON. Just about. I will probably repeat some basic instructions
for Mr. Ruby just before we start asking him the questions.
Mr. SPECTER. All right, then I think those who are going to leave
should leave now so that we are ready to go as soon as your instrument
is in tune.
May the record show that Mr. Alexander has left the room.
Mr. FOWLER. Jack, do you have any objections to Mr. Tonahill being here?
Mr. RUBY. If Tonahill is going to be here—I don’t believe he’s—I know
Bill Alexander is my friend, so he can stay, but Joe is supposed to be
my friend.
Mr. FOWLER. Well, we’re not putting it on that basis, Jack. This is
just purely personal.
Mr. RUBY. Just let me tell you this, Fowler. I have nothing to gain by
Joe being here, because—I have nothing to gain.
Mr. FOWLER. All right, all right. Then, we will ask Joe and Mr.
Alexander to step out.
Mr. RUBY. You still want Alexander to step out?
Mr. FOWLER. I certainly think so, Jack.
Mr. RUBY (addressing Mr. Alexander who was standing in the doorway to
the examining room). Now, Bill, don’t say I didn’t request you, now?
Mr. ALEXANDER. I know it, Jack.
Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Mr. Alexander and Mr. Tonahill
have just gone out of the room.
Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Ruby, it will take me a few moments to get this
adjusted. If you desire to talk to Mr. Fowler, if you can sit still and
talk it will be all right.
(Conference at this time between Mr. Fowler and Mr. Ruby out of the
hearing of the court reporter and others in the room.)
Mr. HERNDON. Do you want to sit still now, Mr. Ruby. I’m not going to
ask you any questions. I just want to get everything adjusted at this
time. You will hear a few scratching noises on the paper.
Now, will you take a deep breath, Mr. Ruby, and then relax, sir?
Mr. RUBY (complied with request of Mr. Herndon).
Mr. HERNDON. Now, just breathe normally.
Now, if everyone will just be quiet for a few moments. There will be no
questions asked. I just want to get the instrument adjusted.
(Reporter’s note: 3:05 p.m.)
Mr. HERNDON (snapped his fingers twice). I made that noise purposely,
Mr. Ruby. Now, I’m going to let you get the feel of that cuff as I
inflate it, and there will be a little bit of pressure put against your
arm. You’ve had your blood pressure taken by a doctor, I’m sure?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes.
Mr. HERNDON. You recall that. It will be the same feeling and I will
have to leave it on just for a matter of a few moments, and if you
will sit perfectly still and put your feet flat on the floor and look
straight ahead.
I will now apply a little bit of pressure on that arm. You probably
feel a little pressure. All right, sir?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. From time to time I may come over and raise and lower your
arm to make sure it’s perfectly relaxed.
Mr. RUBY. That’s all right.
Mr. HERNDON. Do you feel your pulse beat?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. You can see and feel your pulse beat and in a moment
you can see how it records. Very fine, Mr. Ruby. You have been very
cooperative. I don’t think we will have any problem.
Mr. RUBY. You can see the differences of nature—if certain things are
wrong or right, can’t you?
Mr. HERNDON. Well, I have to very carefully interpret what I see.
I’m going to take all these things together at a later date into
consideration, and I don’t see any difficulty.
Mr. RUBY. Because—I want my chief to understand this here and see that.
Mr. HERNDON. Are you a little more relaxed now?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. You seem to be. I don’t want to begin until you feel you
are perfectly relaxed.
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I’m very much relaxed because I have nothing—I’m not
sparring with it, so I must be relaxed.
Mr. HERNDON. Very fine. I appreciate your cooperation very much and you
are cooperating with me very well.
In a moment, you can move your hand a little bit to get a little
circulation. You probably felt just a little tingling sensation?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I felt a little bit of throbbing in these two fingers.
Mr. HERNDON. Are they too tight?
Mr. RUBY. No; that’s fine.
Mr. HERNDON. I can relax this a little bit on your arm. I just want it
close enough so that they won’t slip, just about like that. I don’t
want this to cause you any discomfort to you. Now, if you are about
ready?
Mr. RUBY. I am ready.
Mr. HERNDON. You remember, I’m going to ask you just the questions that
we discussed before and that’s all.
Mr. RUBY. You mean that’s all?
Mr. HERNDON. Oh, no; this is just series 1, Mr. Ruby. We’re going to
cover many questions.
Mr. RUBY. All right.
Mr. HERNDON. I’m going to go rather deliberately slow on this first one
until you become acquainted with the procedure.
Mr. RUBY. Believe me, I know the answers, so you can ask me as fast as
you like.
Mr. HERNDON. During the test, again, if you will keep your feet on the
floor at all times, flat on the floor at all times, and try not to
move. I know it’s hard to sit perfectly still for the 3 to 4 minutes,
but it is to your advantage to try to keep from moving. If you have to
cough or move, I’ll probably observe it and take it into consideration.
During the examination, Mr. Ruby, I know we have other people in the
room, but I would appreciate it if you would just try to concentrate
as if there were just you and me in here and these questions are
coming out and if you know the answer in your own mind, I want you
to truthfully answer them “Yes” or “No.” Do not give any qualifying
statement or additional comments.
Mr. RUBY. All right.
Mr. HERNDON. On the other hand, if I come to one of these questions
that you’re not sure whether you want to say “Yes” or “No,” there is
some area in doubt, just don’t say anything and we’ll go back and
discuss it later.
Mr. RUBY. Okay.
Mr. HERNDON. If you will, look right over here, look straight ahead at
the wall and relax, and hear my question and give your answer to it,
“Yes” or “No.”
Mr. RUBY. Yes, sir.
Mr. HERNDON. I will tell you when I am going to begin. I will tell you
when this particular test is over, but do not relax or move until I
give you the word.
Mr. RUBY. Very well.
Mr. HERNDON. As I say, you will hear a little scratching noise and I
will be marking the paper as we proceed.
Mr. RUBY. Can I speak?
Mr. HERNDON. Right now if you want to; yes, sir.
Mr. RUBY. Fowler, I beg you to get Bill Alexander and Joe Tonahill back
in here. I tell you. Will you do it, please.
Mr. FOWLER. Jack, let’s go on just like it is now. I don’t want you to
have any apprehensions that we’re trying to keep anybody out.
Mr. RUBY. All right.
Mr. HERNDON. It’s taking me about a minute to get the instrument warmed
up again here.
All right, I will now put a little pressure on that arm, Mr. Ruby, and
I will let you know when I’m going to begin. Once again, just answer
the questions truthfully, “Yes” or “No.”
(Reporter’s note: 3:10 p.m.)
Mr. HERNDON. The test will now begin.
“Is your first name Jack?”
Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Is your last name Ruby?”
Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you voluntarily request this test?”
Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you know Oswald before November 22, 1963?”
Mr. RUBY. “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Do you use the middle name ‘Leon’?”
Mr. RUBY (no immediate response). How can I answer that? I don’t have
my driver’s license, but I don’t use it.
Mr. HERNDON. All right, just sit still and we will discuss it. “Did you
assist Oswald in the assassination?”
Mr. RUBY. “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Have you ever been arrested?”
Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you take any medication this morning?”
Mr. RUBY. “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Have you answered all my questions truthfully?”
Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”
Mr. HERNDON. This first series is over. If you will just sit still for
a moment, I will release the pressure on your arm, and you may now move
your arm and relax and get the circulation moving.
Mr. RUBY. I’m all right.
Mr. HERNDON. That wasn’t too bad, sir; was it?
Mr. RUBY (no response).
(Reporter’s note: 3:12 p.m.)
Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Ruby, there are two questions I want to ask you about
on our first series.
I know you couldn’t refrain from laughing and talking about that middle
name of “Leon.” Do you want to further explain that?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I don’t use it, so hence it’s sort of a remembrance
of a very good friend of mine. I used it on my driver’s license, but
since then it has become a habit of keeping it on my driver’s license,
but I’ve never been called with it and very rarely do I sign papers
that way, but once I stated it on my driver’s license, I had to follow
through with it that way, and that’s the answer to it. Once you have it
on your driver’s license, you have to have it the same way.
Mr. HERNDON. Do you like the name “Leon”?
Mr. RUBY. Well, I did more for sentimental reasons, but as I went along
later I sort of dropped it.
Mr. HERNDON. Is it actually on your driver’s license, though?
Mr. RUBY. I think it’s Jack L. Ruby. No—Jack Leon Ruby. It’s Jack
Leon Ruby on my driver’s license and that’s something that once you
start with it, and its been years ago, when you renew your license,
it remains the same, but outside of signing papers or contracts or
anything of vital importance, you only find out it’s much simpler to
sign “Jack Ruby.”
Mr. HERNDON. All right, Mr. Ruby, and one other question. I would just
like to ask you what went on in your mind when you did answer the
question “Yes” to “Have you ever been arrested?”
Mr. RUBY. Well, the police had taken me—I had been arrested, because
when the police officer said, “Jack, come on, we’re taking you down,”
you’re arrested.
Mr. HERNDON. When was this? Are you referring to this current or some
previous time?
Mr. RUBY. Previous to that.
Mr. HERNDON. What situation was that?
Mr. RUBY. Well, it was—I was arrested for dancing after curfew. Some
fellows smuggled in intoxicants after hours.
Mr. HERNDON. Was this here in your own place or some other place?
Mr. RUBY. At my own place. No felony crime, nothing serious—only
misdemeanors.
Mr. HERNDON. You consider that was a misdemeanor?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; in other words—a $25 fine. I never have been in any
criminal activity.
Mr. HERNDON. Very fine. Does your arm feel all right now?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. Very good. We have finished with the first series.
Mr. SPECTER. I am now going to ask Mr. Alexander and Mr. Tonahill to
return between now and the time we start on the next test.
May the record show that Mr. Alexander and Mr. Tonahill are back in the
room.
Mr. HERNDON. Did the cardiounit disturb you at all other than just a
slight tingling sensation?
Mr. RUBY. In this arm here [indicating left arm]?
Mr. HERNDON. Did that bother you before the series No. 1 group?
Mr. RUBY. No; that’s fine.
Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Ruby, you are now a veteran of the first series. You
did real well. You cooperated very fine.
Now, we will proceed with series No. 2. I want to go over these
questions with you so that you and I understand precisely and perfectly
what they mean.
Mr. RUBY. All right.
Mr. HERNDON. Now, in this series of questions, I am going to ask as one
of the ones which is pertinent in this investigation, “Are you now a
member of the Communist Party?”
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. You don’t have to answer that if you don’t want to now,
but I’m going to ask you that question, sir.
Mr. RUBY. OK.
Mr. HERNDON. You understand what I mean by that—that’s about as short
and sweet as we can get it.
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. I’m going to ask you, “Have you ever been a member of the
Communist Party?”
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. You understand the difference—one is now and one is—have
been perhaps sometimes in your youth or life—if you were affiliated
with the Communist Party.
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I understand.
Mr. HERNDON. I’m going to ask you this question, Mr. Ruby: “Are you
now a member of any group that advocates the violent overthrow of the
United States Government?”
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. Do you understand that question?
Mr. RUBY. Yes, sir.
Mr. HERNDON. I’m going to ask: “Have you ever been a member of any
group that advocates the violent overthrow of the United States
Government?”
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. It’s very similar, only it’s in the past tense.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby, on those two questions—we can’t go through all
of those groups which advocate the overthrow of the United States
Government, so we are generalizing with respect to them.
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. You have indicated you understand them?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; and my answer is “No—no collaborating.”
Mr. SPECTER. I don’t think it is necessary to elaborate on that.
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. All right, in addition to those questions, I’m going to
ask you a relatively simple question as this, that you should be able
to answer “Yes” or “No.” “Were you born in the United States?”
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. “Were you born in Chicago?”
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. Now, this next question I’m going to ask you, you don’t
have to answer it now. You can discuss it with me later or you can wait
and decide what you want to answer to it. “Did you ever make a false
official statement?”
Now, that’s a general question and I realize that, Mr. Ruby, and when
I ask that question, obviously your mind probably went back to many
things. We make a lot of official statements. Now, I’m asking that
question in its broadest terms. In other words, to your recollection,
have you ever made a false official statement?
Mr. RUBY. When you say “official”—for instance, in order to have a
job years ago—I want to explain this to you. In order to work in
a department store, I had to use another name because this other
person would be the right age that I could work, but outside of that,
officials—to any authorities—I haven’t.
Mr. HERNDON. Obviously, this department store thing came to your mind
when I asked that question?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. Well, sir, I’m glad you brought that out so I will have an
understanding that that was in your mind. What I mean here, however,
is something more in the nature of an application for a license,
an application for a permit, an application for insurance—anything
that would come within the jurisdiction of being somewhat a legal or
semilegal form or application?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. I want to make sure you understand what I mean by that
question.
Then, I’ll probably ask, I understand you were born in 1911, is that
correct?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. These are questions of identity—“Were you born in 1911?”
Now, let me see, gentlemen, if we have gone over all the questions. I
have gone over all the questions with Mr. Ruby that I’m going to ask
for this next series.
Mr. SPECTER. All right, prior to the administration of the second
series, Mr. Alexander and Mr. Tonahill are now leaving the room again.
May the record show that Mr. Alexander and Mr. Tonahill have now
departed from the room.
(Reporter’s note: 3:20 p.m.)
Mr. HERNDON. All right, now just relax. Can I get you a drink of water
or anything, Mr. Ruby?
Mr. RUBY. No; I’m perfectly all right.
Mr. HERNDON. All right, very fine. Once again, if you will try to
refrain from moving, simply look straight again, and sit perfectly
still and answer the questions “Yes” or “No.” I again will tell you
when I am going to begin, Mr. Ruby.
Now, are you relaxed? Are you OK?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. How does your arm feel? I noticed you had a little bit of
pressure there around the cuff. Is the circulation all right?
Mr. RUBY. Fine.
Mr. HERNDON. You feel fine?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. It will take me a moment again here to get the instrument
adjusted. Before I put any pressure on the cuff, Mr. Ruby, I’m going
to just tighten this up just slightly, do you want to move up just a
moment? Does that bind you in any way or is it too tight [checking tube
around Mr. Ruby’s chest]?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. All right, now just lean back relax. All right, sir. Now,
we’re getting a better tracing. All right, I am going to now put a
little pressure on and I will tell you when I am going to begin.
(Reporter’s note: 3:23 p.m.)
Mr. HERNDON. Now, I’m checking this just so you can raise and lower
your arm and keep relaxed. Look straight ahead, Mr. Ruby.
(Reporter’s note: 3:25 p.m.)
Mr. HERNDON. I will now begin.
“Were you born in the United States?”
Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Were you born in Chicago?”
Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Are you now a member of the Communist Party?”
Mr. RUBY. “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Have you ever been known by another name?”
Don’t answer that question. I didn’t review it before. Skip it. Just
sit and relax.
“Have you ever been a member of the Communist Party?”
Mr. RUBY. “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you ever make a false official statement?”
Mr. RUBY. “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Are you now a member of any group that advocates the
violent overthrow of the United States Government?”
Mr. RUBY. “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Have you ever been a member of any group that advocates
violent overthrow of the United States Government?”
Mr. RUBY. “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Were you born in 1911?”
Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”
Mr. HERNDON. That concludes that series. Just sit still for a moment,
sir.
All right, you may now move your arm and relax, Mr. Ruby.
Mr. RUBY. All right.
(Reporter’s note: 3:27 p.m.)
Mr. HERNDON. There was one irrelevant question that I failed to mention
here. We will discuss that in a moment, and that is, “Have you ever
been known by another name?”
You might want to mention that to the gentlemen, as a matter of record.
I told him to refrain from answering it. It’s really not that pertinent.
Mr. SPECTER. Fine, we will bring it to their attention.
Mr. HERNDON. But, as long as I did ask it, if you want, I’d like him to
answer it before the other gentlemen come in.
Mr. SPECTER. I think that’s all right.
Mr. RUBY. Have I ever had it changed legally, is that what you meant?
Mr. HERNDON. In other words, when I asked you that question, I realized
I hadn’t gone over it.
Mr. RUBY. That’s all right.
Mr. HERNDON. Therefore—I know you hesitated to answer it.
Mr. RUBY. Well, I have two names—my name was Rubenstein and was changed
to Ruby.
Mr. HERNDON. That’s what came to your mind, the fact that you actually
had your name changed?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. We are now between series Nos. 2 and 3?
Mr. HERNDON. Yes.
Mr. RUBY. How many series do I have now?
Mr. HERNDON. I don’t know quite yet, Mr. Ruby.
Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that Mr. Alexander and Mr. Tonahill
are back in the room.
Gentlemen, there was one question which Mr. Herndon did not go over
in advance and that was, “Was Mr. Ruby ever known by any other name?”
Since he did ask it, but since it was obvious as soon as he had asked
it that he had not gone over it, he asked Mr. Ruby not to answer it,
and when the series was over, he asked Mr. Ruby the question again and
Mr. Ruby said that he had been known previously as “Jack Rubenstein”
and had legally changed his name. With that one variation, all the
questions asked during that series were identical with those discussed
before you left the room.
Mr. HERNDON. My apologies, gentlemen, but it was an irrelevant question.
Mr. Ruby, we shall now proceed to what we call series No. 3. Here again
these questions are going to be intermixed, some rather pertinent to
what we’re interested in here, others general questions. Let me go over
the relevant questions, first, Mr. Ruby.
“Between the assassination and the shooting, did anybody you know tell
you they knew Oswald?”
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, you understand, Mr. Ruby, when he says “the
shooting,” that means the shooting of Oswald?
Mr. RUBY. Repeat that over again—let me hear it again.
Mr. HERNDON. I think you realized that, but I want to make certain
that you understand, and I want to go back and break down that
question—between the assassination of President Kennedy and the
shooting—now, the shooting I mean is the shooting of Oswald?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes—yes—the answer is “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. I realize you understood the question, but the shooting
in some other person’s mind could be many things. I want to keep these
sentences as concise and short as possible.
“Did anybody you know tell you they knew Oswald?”
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. Do you understand the question, Mr. Ruby?
Mr. RUBY. Right.
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you tell anyone that you were thinking of shooting
Oswald before you did it?”
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. Is that question all right, do you understand it?
Mr. RUBY. Yes—I take that back. Sunday morning—I want to elaborate on
that—before I left my apartment—it evidently didn’t register with the
person because of the way I said it. In other words, the whole basis
of this whole thing was that Mrs. Kennedy would have to come back for
trial.
Mr. FOWLER. Jack, let me ask you at this time—excuse my interruption,
but why don’t you just address yourself to the general questions that
are asked you. I think it’s all right.
Mr. RUBY. All right.
Mr. FOWLER. I don’t think it will help the Commission, and this may be
in the form of a question later on, but just confine your answer to
“Yes” or “No.”
Mr. RUBY. Well, the thing is this—I have to answer—ask me the question
again.
Mr. HERNDON. Let’s go over it once more, Mr. Ruby, and I want you to be
able to be in a position that you can freely, honestly, and truthfully
answer it simply “Yes” or “No.”
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. Now, if there’s something in here in this area that
troubles you, we can rephrase the question.
Mr. RUBY. Will you specify the time—the time element is very important.
Mr. HERNDON. The only time element is before—before you did it. Now,
“before” is a very broad coverage?
Mr. RUBY. That’s it. That’s a difficult question to answer.
Mr. HERNDON. That’s the way the question is worded. Let me ask it again
and see if you want to discuss it. “Did you tell anyone that you were
thinking of shooting Oswald before you did it?”
Mr. RUBY [no response].
Mr. HERNDON. If you want me to reword that question, I’ll take it up
with Mr. Specter.
Mr. RUBY. Why don’t you say this—“that Sunday morning, specifically?”
That would be easier for me to answer.
Mr. HERNDON. In other words, “Did you tell anyone you were thinking of
shooting Oswald on Sunday morning?”
Mr. FOWLER. Jack, again, excuse me, sir.
Mr. RUBY. Fowler, it puts me in a tough spot when he asks me that
question and I evade it.
Mr. FOWLER. I understand this, but I’m talking now specifically about
in the presence of Mr. Alexander. Now, later on, if you want to answer
it “Yes” or “No” to that question, it’s perfectly all right. I want you
to fully understand the question.
Mr. HERNDON. I want to bow, of course, to Mr. Specter, of course, for
the way the Commission desires it.
Mr. SPECTER. If you would like us to break it down, we could do it in
two questions. “Did you tell anybody on Sunday morning that you were
going to shoot Oswald before you did it?”
Mr. RUBY. Yes, that’s easier to answer.
Mr. SPECTER. Then, we can ask you this: “Before Sunday morning did you
tell anybody you intended to shoot Oswald?”
Mr. RUBY. Now, that’s a better way to ask it—the last question.
Mr. SPECTER. Then, we’ve covered all the time in two parts.
Mr. RUBY. The last question you asked me is a better way to ask me. The
last question you asked, my answer is “No.”
Mr. SPECTER. Then, we’ll want to ask you a followup question.
Mr. RUBY. Do you understand what I’m saying—did you understand what I
said?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes, I understand what you’re saying, but we will want to
ask you for the purpose of the test, “On Sunday morning did you tell
anybody that you intended to shoot Oswald?”
Mr. RUBY. All right. I’ll answer it.
Mr. HERNDON. If I could get the court reporter to read back how you
phrased that question, so that we could both agree on it.
COURT REPORTER. “On Sunday morning did you tell anybody that you
intended to shoot Oswald?”
Mr. SPECTER. There are two questions. “Before Sunday morning, did
you tell anyone you intended to shoot Oswald?” That’s all right for
one question. Now, write this one down, Mr. Herndon. The question is
“Before Sunday morning did you tell anyone that you intended to shoot
Oswald?”
Mr. RUBY. Now, before Sunday morning means any time element beyond the
time I left my apartment. Is that what you’re referring to when you say
Sunday morning?
Mr. SPECTER. Well, I’ll even change that and I’ll say “Before you left
your apartment on Sunday morning, did you tell anyone you intended to
shoot Oswald?”
Now, the following question will be: “From the time you left your
apartment on Sunday morning, did you tell anyone you intended to shoot
Oswald?”
Mr. RUBY. Now, you better rephrase that. I hadn’t already left the
apartment. Do you follow me?
Mr. SPECTER. Right. Well, I see what you’re driving at—you’re driving
at the time.
Mr. RUBY. The time element is very important.
Mr. SPECTER. All right, we can make it in three parts: “While you were
at your apartment on Sunday morning, did you tell anyone you intended
to shoot Oswald?”
Now, we’ve broken it up three ways. That would really be covered, Mr.
Ruby, in the first part: “Before you left your apartment on Sunday
morning, did you tell anyone you intended to shoot Oswald?”
Mr. RUBY. Now, you’ve got to get another question in there: “Previous
to your arising that morning, have you told anyone you’re going to
shoot Oswald?” You see my point?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes; before you awakened, in other words?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. “Before you awakened on Sunday morning, had you told
anyone you intended to shoot Oswald?”
Mr. RUBY. Before I awakened.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby, I don’t want to leave any area of
questionableness here or ambiguity—of course, you didn’t say in your
sleep this, so perhaps we ought to phrase it “Before you went to bed on
Saturday night or early Sunday morning did you tell anyone you intended
to shoot Oswald?”
Mr. RUBY. That’s right.
Mr. HERNDON. Would you repeat that, Mr. Specter?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes. “Before you went to bed——”
What time did you go to bed that night?
Mr. RUBY. At 1:15 or 1:30, but you must put it specifically—also,
whether I received any phone calls from the time I went to bed and the
time I arose. Do you follow me? In other words, I could clear myself by
answering that question truthfully, but I could have received a phone
call in between the time I went to bed and the time I awakened.
Mr. HERNDON. So, the area we’re trying to cover here, Mr. Ruby, as I
see it is—if you did tell anyone you were thinking of doing this—the
approximate time.
Is that what we’re getting at, Mr. Specter?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. Now, we can phrase that in several different ways. If your
recollection is that good that you specifically recall an incident, you
can tell me how you want me to ask it.
Mr. ALEXANDER. May I make a suggestion?
Mr. HERNDON. Yes.
Mr. ALEXANDER. Ask it, “Did you tell someone by telephone you intended
to shoot Oswald?”
Mr. RUBY. Plus the fact that I think it should be included, “Did I talk
to anyone before going to bed?”
Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Specter?
Mr. FOWLER. Now, we will certainly object to a question being framed by
this attorney.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Fowler, do I understand your position correctly, that
you are concerned about the disclosure of this information in the
presence of Mr. Alexander?
Mr. FOWLER. I am.
Mr. SPECTER. But, do you have any concern about disclosing the answer
to this question to the Commission?
Mr. FOWLER. None whatsoever.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, would it be agreeable with you if Mr. Alexander
leaves while this question is being formulated so we can understand it,
and then that he comes back when we have formulated it?
Mr. ALEXANDER. Jack knows that I know the answer to it, so there’s no
use in anybody getting upset about it.
Mr. RUBY. Are you sure you know the answer to it?
Mr. ALEXANDER. I think so, Jack.
Mr. FOWLER. It would be preferable if he would leave.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Alexander, do you have any objection to stepping out
just while we formulate this question?
Mr. ALEXANDER. Not at all, not at all. Come on Joe.
Mr. TONAHILL. I don’t have to go.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Alexander has now departed, may the record show.
All right, Mr. Ruby, we want to phrase the question in accordance with
polygraph procedure in a way that gets to the point, as you see the
point. So, tell us exactly what you have in mind here.
Mr. RUBY. Well, you had better remind me again.
Mr. HERNDON. Here’s the area we’re trying to cover. Here’s the question
I originally asked you which created all this problem. “Between the
assassination and the shooting”—now, let me start that again—“Did you
tell anyone that you were thinking of shooting Oswald before you did?”
Now, I tried to put that as plainly as I could. I’m not interested here
in the area of when——
Mr. RUBY. Yes, but if you’re speaking in the area of when, it’s pretty
incriminating. It’s a long premeditation, then, of time element.
Mr. HERNDON. I think the Commission here has its question of whether or
not you did tell anybody?
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby, if you have no objection to answering that
question, we would like you to do so now for purposes of giving us
information, and then we will test you in just a minute as we go
through with the polygraph, if you’re willing to answer that question?
Mr. RUBY. Clayton?
Mr. FOWLER. Jack, let me say this—now, this is the very crux of your
case. In other words, if there is premeditation on your part to
murder or to kill, this can and will be used against you, and this
information—let’s project it a little bit and say that you do get a new
trial, and that between now and that the Warren Commission releases
their information for public consumption or to the district attorney’s
office or to anybody else, then, if your answer to these questions
might be “Yes,” then it would be most difficult to appear and defend
you.
Mr. RUBY. Clayton, I’m here to tell the truth. I don’t know how the
heck to answer it. I appreciate you’re in a tough spot.
Mr. FOWLER. Well, of course, as you can readily see, this is why we
advised you not to take this.
Mr. RUBY. That’s why I want it, because I know what’s best for me.
Mr. FOWLER. Well, I don’t think you do, Jack.
Mr. RUBY. Can I overrule you, Clayton, where you won’t be too angry if
I overrule you?
Mr. FOWLER. Well, I have no—I’m not going to put a cob in your mouth,
Jack.
Mr. RUBY. Can I ask one more favor of you?
Mr. FOWLER. Sure.
Mr. RUBY. Will you let those two gentlemen back in the room, at your
request?
Mr. FOWLER. Not at my request; no, sir.
Mr. RUBY. Please, Clayton?
Mr. FOWLER. If you leave that up to me, I say, “No.”
Mr. RUBY. All right, I’m going to answer your question.
Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Ruby, why don’t I just go over with you once again all
of them, for this series of questions.
Mr. SPECTER. At this time, I would like to ask Mr. Ruby if he is
willing to answer the question about the conversations. I would like to
develop the information about the conversations so that we will know
it is factual. This would be an extended question of the nature that
the Chief Justice asked you on June 7—if you’re willing to answer my
question to you at this time, which is: “Did you tell anybody that you
intended to shoot Oswald at any time before you did it?” And, I would
follow that up, if you answer that question, with, “Whom did you tell
and when?” With that information, we can then formulate these questions
for the lie detector test to see if you’re telling the truth.
Mr. RUBY. Clayton, please? I’ve got to do this? I’ve got to, because I
told it to the Warren Commission.
Mr. FOWLER. In other words, these questions have already been talked
about?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; and will you ask them to come in?
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Fowler, I don’t know that they have. I have reviewed
the transcript, but I don’t know that we’ve asked these before, but he
answered everything that was asked of him in the last session.
Mr. RUBY. Yes, I was very voluntary.
Mr. SPECTER. We deliberately didn’t go into some areas, suffice it to
say, for certain purposes. But this is the question we’re concerned
with at the moment, and we would like an answer substantively, in
addition to testing his truthfulness. It comes to a head when we try
to formulate the questions for the polygraph, because we really have
to get the underlying facts, and then we can point our efforts to see
whether he’s telling the truth according to the indicators from the
examination.
Mr. FOWLER. Again, I don’t believe certainly he understands the full
complicity of this thing. If there are any questions that are asked
that show premeditation on his part, I would respectfully ask that he
decline to answer and that you decline to ask it.
Mr. RUBY. But it’s already in there. I’ve already told it to the Warren
Commission.
Mr. FOWLER. Now, if there is an area that has been covered already and
you still wish to go into it—I don’t want this man——
Mr. RUBY. So, would you mind calling Alexander in?
Mr. FOWLER. Listen, Jack, will you please listen to me? This man got up
down there and asked the jury to send you to the electric chair.
Mr. RUBY. I know it.
Mr. FOWLER. He has not changed his opinion yet, and he will again
ask it at some later date. Now, is this the kind of man you want to
pussyfoot around in here with and let listen to these questions? Just
“Yes” or “No”—if it is—we’ll bring him back in.
Mr. RUBY. Yes: I want him in here, and I want you to ask him to come
in, please.
Mr. FOWLER. I won’t ask him to come in.
Mr. RUBY. Joe, ask him to come in.
Mr. TONAHILL. No; Clayton is your chief counsel and I’m going to
respect his desires.
Mr. RUBY. Chief—I know.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, I will ask him to come in, Mr. Ruby. I’m willing to
bring him back, if that’s your request.
Mr. FOWLER. I would like this record to reflect that this is against
the advice of his attorneys present, and that it will be very
detrimental to, No. 1, his appeal, and No. 2, perhaps to any clemency
that might be asked for in the future, and No. 3, for the actual trial
of the case on the merits, if such ever occurs.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby, the Commission can proceed and conduct this
test and not bring him back. I want you to be clear on that point,
that these men do not have to be here for the purposes of getting this
information for the Commission, so we will know all the facts, or for
the purposes of conducting this test. So, it’s really extraneous. It
doesn’t really matter for them to be in here for the tests.
Mr. FOWLER. Jack, why do you want them back?
Mr. RUBY. Because I happen to know what I’m talking about.