The testimony of Sam Ruby was taken at 10:55 a.m., on May 29, 1964,
in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan
and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant
counsel of the President’s Commission. Sam Ruby was accompanied by his
attorney, Phil Burleson.
Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Sam Ruby.
Mr. Ruby, my name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the advisory
staff of the General Counsel of the President’s Commission on the
Assassination of President Kennedy. Under the provisions of Executive
Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the joint resolution of Congress
No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the President’s
Commission in conformance with the executive order and the joint
resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you.
I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry
is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relevant to the
assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of
Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular, as to you, Mr. Ruby, the nature of
the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death
of Oswald and of the life of your brother, Jack Ruby, and any other
pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry.
Mr. Ruby, I believe that you appear here today by virtue of a letter
addressed to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of
the President’s Commission. Did you receive that letter?
Mr. RUBY. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the day that you did receive it.
Mr. RUBY. I believe it was Tuesday.
Mr. HUBERT. Under the rules of the Commission you are entitled to a
3-day written notice prior to the taking of your deposition, but the
rules also provide that you may waive that notice if you wish and
testify right now. Do you wish to do so?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I do—I wish to testify.
Mr. HUBERT. I would like the record to show also that Mr. Phil
Burleson, attorney at law, is present and representing Mr. Sam Ruby; is
that correct?
Mr. BURLESON. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, will you stand and take the oath, please? And raise
your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. RUBY. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. Will you state your full name, please?
Mr. RUBY. Samuel David Ruby.
Mr. HUBERT. How old are you. Mr. Ruby?
Mr. RUBY. 51.
Mr. HUBERT. Where do you reside?
Mr. RUBY. At 11616 Jamestown Road, Dallas, Tex.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation?
Mr. RUBY. I am a washing machine repairman at washaterias.
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Ruby, you have heretofore been interviewed by the FBI
on four different occasions and I would like you to tell me about
those. In order that we may proceed in that way, I wish to identify an
interview of you on November 24, 1963, by FBI Agents Sayres [spelling]
S-a-y-r-e-s, and Eckenrode. That interview consists of six pages—on the
first page I have marked on the right margin the following: “Dallas,
Texas, May 29, 1964, Exhibit No. 1, deposition of Sam Ruby,” and I have
placed my name beneath that and on the right-hand lower corner of each
of the succeeding five pages I have placed my initials for the purpose
of identification.
Now, I ask you if you have had occasion to read this document which I
have identified as Exhibit No. 1?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I have.
Mr. HUBERT. I would like you to express your opinion as to the
correctness of that report of the interview?
Mr. RUBY. They are correct as far as that is concerned.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you any changes or any suggestions or modifications in
any way that you wish to make with respect to that statement?
Mr. RUBY. Well, I think he has them.
Mr. BURLESON. On page 6; in previously going over this, Mr. Hubert, I
think there are some things he would like to comment on and I will ask
him about it.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir.
Mr. BURLESON. On page 6, the first paragraph—there is a statement
that “This man’s name was Leo, last name unknown. Jack fired this man
because he said he was stealing from him.”
I’ll ask you whether or not you now have found out or since that time,
have found out Leo’s last name?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I found out his name.
Mr. BURLESON. What is that?
Mr. RUBY. Torti [spelling] T-o-r-t-i; I believe is the way he spells it.
Mr. BURLESON. And as to the second statement there about Jack firing
this man, do you now know that that was not the situation?
Mr. RUBY. Yes: I found out that he was not quite competent as Jack
would have him and there were a few things that he didn’t take care of,
in other words, when my brother told him to do it and he neglected to
do a few things.
Mr. BURLESON. And that was the reason for the firing of Torti rather
than stealing?
Mr. RUBY. Right.
Mr. BURLESON. And subject to that correction you told Mr. Hubert,
everything else appeared to be correct, as I understand it now?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it correct to state that when you made the statement
that you have just modified on page 6 of Exhibit No. 1 that you had the
impression that the man had been fired because he had been stealing
from Jack and that impression has been clarified since that; is that
correct?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How was it clarified?
Mr. RUBY. Well, since talking to Jack and at the time—Jack mentioned
a few things that—when I come to the club, which I did a few times to
visit him and see the show and to watch the admission being taken and
put in the register properly, and that gave me the impression that
maybe he just wanted to see that maybe Leo didn’t forget to do those
things.
Mr. HUBERT. You have since talked to your brother Jack and he has
clarified this matter, so that you are now able to state that your
present understanding is that it was not because of an allegation of
stealing, but rather because he was incompetent; is that correct?
Mr. RUBY. Right; and Jack’s idea about managing the club.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I show you another report of an interview of you by
FBI Agent Alfred Sayres on November 27, 1963, which I have marked for
identification as follows: “Dallas, Texas, May 29, 1963, Exhibit No.
2, deposition of Sam Ruby,” and I have signed my name and all of which
appears in the right margin of this one page document and I ask you the
same question with respect to that, that is, if it is correct?
Mr. RUBY. Which paragraph is that?
Mr. HUBERT. The entire document—I am speaking of the entire document—I
think you have just read it.
Mr. BURLESON. That’s the one you said was all right.
Mr. RUBY (reading instrument referred to). I think I recall when Jack
was hospitalized, I think it was in Chicago.
Mr. BURLESON. All right, let me ask you a question—in regard to the
second paragraph which says—“He said he knows of no time when Jack Ruby
has ever been hospitalized for any reason.” Does something come to your
mind in reference to the hospitalization of Jack?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; he was struck in back of the head, I think he was
scalping tickets at one of the sporting events—at football or one of
those events in Chicago—and the police officer told him not to scalp,
told him to leave the premises where the sporting event was being held,
and Jack refused to do so, and anyway—I don’t know what the deal was,
but Jack was hit on the back of the head with a club or something
like that, and he had a big bandage on the back of his head, and he
was hospitalized then, but I don’t remember what year it was—I don’t
remember.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, with that amplification or correction of Exhibit
No. 2, is the exhibit otherwise correct?
Mr. RUBY. Well, they tell me—I talked to the family and they say that
my mother was hospitalized in Elgin.
Mr. BURLESON. All right; let me ask you—you are now referring to the
third paragraph and a sentence in there that says, “This was the
Dunning Hospital on Irving Boulevard in Chicago?”
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. BURLESON. You have subsequently found out that it may have been a
different hospital?
Mr. RUBY. Right; after I talked to some members of the family and they
say it was in Elgin, Ill., which is a mental hospital.
Mr. BURLESON. And are there any other corrections or additions you want
to make to that statement?
Mr. RUBY. Well, I found out since, that my sister, Eileen, had somewhat
of a nervous breakdown since she came here to visit during the trial.
Mr. BURLESON. Let me ask you—you are now referring to the last
paragraph that says, “He knows of no other indications of any mental
illnesses in his family.” What have you found out since you made that
statement?
Mr. RUBY. My sister Eileen was treated by a doctor during—following a
nervous breakdown some years ago—we found out during the course of the
trial when she was here.
Mr. BURLESON. Did you find out anything about Earl having any type of
mental disorder, either in the service or subsequent thereto?
Mr. RUBY. Well, here it is.
Mr. BURLESON. You have that in there?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know where your sister was hospitalized or treated?
Mr. RUBY. My sister Eileen Kaminsky—no; I don’t, but she did mention
she was having some difficulty.
Mr. HUBERT. But you got that information from her?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you didn’t know it at the time of the interview covered
by Exhibit No. 2, to wit: November 27, 1963?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Other than that, this document is correct, that is Exhibit
No. 2, is that right?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I show you Exhibit No. 3, which you have already read,
and that Exhibit No. 3 is an interview of you by Alfred Sayres, having
been dated November 29. I have marked it for identification as follows:
“Dallas, Tex., May 29, 1964, as Exhibit No. 3 to the deposition of
Sam Ruby,” and I have signed my name below it and I ask you if that
document is correct?
Mr. RUBY (reading instrument referred to). Well, the first paragraph
there?
Mr. BURLESON. Let me ask you—in reference to the first paragraph
starting with “Samuel David Ruby, 11616 Jamestown Road, Dallas, Tex.,
advised that he has no interest financial or administrative in the
S & R Corp. He further advised that he has no interest financial or
administrative in the Carousel Club or in the Club Vegas in Dallas,
Tex., which clubs are operated by his brother, Jack Ruby. He further
advised that he is not aware that his name has ever appeared on any
document as an officer in the S & R Corp., or in any way in the
operation of the Carousel Club or the Club Vegas.”
Have you, since you made that statement back on the 29th of November
1963, been informed of some facts that are contrary to what you stated
at that time, and do you wish to explain to Mr. Hubert what that is?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I found out from Ralph Paul, who was also a stockholder,
that I was a member of the corporation and that I was issued shares
of stock in the S & R Corp., but I have never seen them, I have never
received them or have never seen any of the corporation papers, so I
am just taking his word for it, and I still don’t know, but they say it
and also in the Vegas Club, I hold a chattel mortgage on that, which
has not fully been paid off. I don’t know whether you would consider
that a financial interest in that or not. Jack never paid me off the
full amount.
Mr. HUBERT. Does that have to do with reference to a loan that had been
made by you to him?
Mr. RUBY. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And at an earlier date upon which you got a judgment in
your favor?
Mr. RUBY. That’s right, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, we will touch upon that a little later, and I think
that will be clarified. It is a fact, I take it, until you were advised
by Mr. Paul that your name appeared on the corporate papers, you didn’t
know anything about it until then?
Mr. RUBY. No; this last, this third paragraph, I think I found out from
my brother Earl.
Mr. BURLESON. All right, let me make reference to a particular sentence
in there. In the third paragraph of the statement, “He further advised
that sometime during the fall or early winter of 1960, his sister,
Marion Caroll, visited in Dallas and while here loaned Jack Ruby a
fairly large sum of money. He said she later regretted making this loan
and his brother Earl came to Dallas sometime in the spring of 1961 for
the purpose of recovering the amount of this loan for Marion. He said
he does not know if Earl was successful in this attempt or if Earl paid
Marion the amount of the loan and thereby became a creditor of Jack
Ruby.”
What have you found out since making that statement that might make
some difference?
Mr. RUBY. Well, part of that I believe is true—Earl did come down here
to try to get some of that money back, but I also found out that he let
Jack have some money of his own because Jack was having some financial
difficulties with the Carousel Club. It was changed then and I think it
was the Sovereign Club or the Carousel.
Mr. HUBERT. Who did you find that out from?
Mr. RUBY. From Earl.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he say how much?
Mr. RUBY. No; he didn’t say—he may have said, but I don’t recall, but I
know he says he let him have some money.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, are there any other changes or corrections to
Exhibit No. 3?
Mr. RUBY. No; if he has an interest—I don’t know whether he has an
interest—if it’s in writing—he may have.
Mr. BURLESON. Let me ask you—are you referring to the fourth paragraph
that says, “He says he does not know whether or not Earl Ruby has
a financial interest in the Carousel Club or the Club Vegas at
Dallas, but if he does have, this interest may have arisen out of the
above-mentioned loan.”
Mr. RUBY. Yes; that’s right—that is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. That is correct?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; that is correct, but I don’t know about it.
Mr. BURLESON. That’s what you have heard?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that all as to Exhibit No. 3, then?