Mr. RUBY. That is what I was going to say. He is my brother-in-law.
Mr. HUBERT. Which sister is this?
Mr. RUBY. Eileen.
Mr. HUBERT. She married Harold Kaminsky?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. He is an accountant, is he?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And he handled this for you?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You gave him these details?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you invested any money or loaned any money to Jack
after 1960?
Mr. RUBY. After 1960?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I think I did. I don’t remember the exact figure.
Mr. HUBERT. What was it in connection with, and about when did it occur?
Mr. RUBY. It must have been just about 1960.
Mr. HUBERT. It was in addition to the $6,000 that we have been talking
about?
Mr. RUBY. I think that is the figure, but I am not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. I don’t know that you would have been able to take a loss
for a bad debt or loan made in 1960, that is to say on your return for
1960.
Mr. RUBY. I say I don’t recall. I don’t recall the exact—I would have
to check my records and see when I sent it down.
Mr. HUBERT. By your records, you mean checkbooks and so forth?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What sort of personal records do you have, Mr. Ruby?
Mr. RUBY. We have a regular set of books.
Mr. HUBERT. Are you talking about the Cobo Cleaners?
Mr. RUBY. No; even before that.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean you have a personal set of books?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, sure. I mean by regular bank stubs and check stubs and
statements.
Mr. HUBERT. You still have retained those?
Mr. RUBY. I think so.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have occasion to make a telephone call or send a
telegram to Havana, Cuba, in 1962, in April of 1962?
Mr. RUBY. April of 1962? The only reason I would have, Jack visited
Cuba, Havana. I don’t know if it was in April, and I may have talked to
him. But I don’t know, I am not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. You are acquainted with Jack’s visit to Havana?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I know he went there.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he go there once or more than once?
Mr. RUBY. As far as I know, once.
Mr. HUBERT. Isn’t it a fact that that was in 1959?
Mr. RUBY. I don’t know. If it was in 1959, then I couldn’t have made
any call or sent any wire. As far as I know, to Cuba, in 1962. I don’t
remember any, anyhow.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anybody in Cuba?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you think of any reason at all why you might have sent
a telegram or made a phone call to Cuba?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it possible that some employee of yours might have?
Mr. RUBY. I am trying to think. I can’t think of anyone. I knew of the
fellow that Jack went to visit there, a fellow by the name of McWillie.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you know him?
Mr. RUBY. Jack told me about him.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever met him?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall that in the early part of this year,
specifically on January 6, you were interviewed by an Internal Revenue
agent who asked you about some calls and so forth, and that he
mentioned to you something about a call to Cuba, and that you told him
that you thought it was a telegram?
Mr. RUBY. There should be some record of it if I did. I don’t recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall a conversation with this Internal Revenue
agent whereby he was questioning you concerning whether certain phone
calls were properly deductible business expenses?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And that in the course of that conversation he asked you
about the Havana call and that you identified or thought that it was a
telegram?
Mr. RUBY. I don’t see why. I don’t recall sending a telegram. I can’t
think of why it would be in 1962. I can’t think of any reason for it.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it possible that someone else could have called and
charged it to the Cobo Cleaners account?
Mr. RUBY. I doubt it. I just can’t imagine who in 1962.
Mr. HUBERT. In April of 1962 you were with Cobo Cleaners in Detroit
already?
Mr. RUBY. Yes. I can’t think of any reason.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any policy in your business about getting
approval before long-distance calls were made, or how did you manage
that aspect?
Mr. RUBY. No; I mean I don’t watch it that close because we have so
many. Wouldn’t we know, or isn’t there somebody where we sent it so it
could refresh my memory? I don’t think I did.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Pratkins, or possibly
Praskins?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever been to Cuba yourself?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Coming back to that Welch Co. I mentioned a moment ago,
would it help you if I stated that I think they are located in
Cambridge, Mass., and it is the Welch Candy Co.? Do you recall anything
about that?
Mr. RUBY. No; you know my brother Hy sells candy. How long ago does
this go back? It doesn’t register with me at all.
Mr. HUBERT. This would have been in May of 1963.
Mr. RUBY. The name doesn’t register at all.
Mr. HUBERT. You have no recollection that you yourself made any call to
the James Welch Candy Co. in Cambridge, Mass.?
Mr. RUBY. I don’t think so.
Mr. HUBERT. Would there be a possibility that someone could have used
your phone and done that?
Mr. RUBY. I don’t think they would. The only possibility, if my brother
Hy does business with them, the only possibility I can think of is that
perhaps at that time he was visiting me and called them. But he would
ask me first, I think.
[I do recall making a call to Welch Candy to ask them if they were to
continue using my camera as a premium.]
Mr. HUBERT. Did he visit you during the year 1963?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. About what time of the year?
Mr. RUBY. I don’t recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it in the spring?
Mr. RUBY. I am not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it about a year ago?
Mr. RUBY. He stopped in a couple of times. Yes; when he is in the
territory he stops in.
Mr. HUBERT. Suppose we take a breather for a minute.
(Brief recess.)
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Griffin, who is working with me in this area, has
some questions to ask you, so let’s get back on the record with the
statement that this is a continuation of the deposition under the same
authority that was used for the commencement of the deposition, and
that you are still under the same oath that you were at the beginning,
and may we have this understanding, that if we have any further
recesses as I think we will, that the continuation thereafter will be
under the same authority that we started off with, and that you will be
under oath throughout? Do you agree to that?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That is to save some time. All right. Mr. Griffin.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What I would like to do at the outset, Mr. Ruby, is to go
back over some of the names that Mr. Hubert had talked with you about
before, and maybe I can ask some questions which might be able to
refresh your recollection. He indicated to me that you didn’t recognize
the name of Dominic Scorta. Now this would be somebody who lives or
works in Chicago. Do you have any recollection of any association with
anybody like that?
Mr. RUBY. Scorta, Scorta? Not at all.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert also indicated to me that you didn’t recognize
the name of a man named Kirk Bibul?
Mr. RUBY. That is right; I don’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any friends or acquaintances at Northwestern
University or in Evanston?
Mr. RUBY. Gee, I lived in Chicago all my life. I have got any number
of friends that went to school there but that name still doesn’t sound
familiar.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are your children of college age?
Mr. RUBY. No; the oldest one is only 15.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have anyone who has access to your house phone or
business phone?
Mr. RUBY. The only thing I can think of, I don’t know, is he a music
teacher?
Mr. GRIFFIN. This is what I am asking you. Do you know a music teacher?
Mr. RUBY. My wife was trying to contact a music teacher at Northwestern
to send my children to him for piano lessons.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that? I mean, how long ago was this?
Mr. RUBY. It has got to be 3 years ago.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This is while you lived in Chicago?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; that is the only thing I can think of. Or if he has
anything to do with music teaching there, that is the only reason I can
think of.
Mr. HUBERT. Suppose we get this into the record. Could you give us the
names of the people who would have had access to the telephones at the
Cobo Cleaners, and who might have made long distance calls during the
years 1962 and 1963?
Mr. RUBY. Any one of our employees could have. It would be very
difficult. I could give you the list, but there is quite a few.
Mr. HUBERT. Would an employee make a long-distance call without your
consent?
Mr. RUBY. No; I don’t think so.
Mr. HUBERT. Who would be authorized to make it without clearing with
you first, let’s put it that way?
Mr. RUBY. Anyone; anyone probably other than my wife or my partner that
I can think of. That is about all.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean by that that the only ones who would be authorized
without clearing it first would be your partner and your wife?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; for very long-distance calls. Now we call the suburbs as
I told you, Pontiac, Walled Lake, or Mount Clemens. Those are 25¢ or
30¢ calls. Because we cover that area and our trucks go there, our call
girl will be calling them any number of times during the month.
Mr. HUBERT. How many employees did you have during this period? I know
it would vary, but an average?
Mr. RUBY. Probably 50.
Mr. HUBERT. Now the phones are in the office?
Mr. RUBY. Not all of them. We have one in the back end that anybody
could use.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that a pay phone?
Mr. RUBY. We have a pay phone and a company phone.
Mr. HUBERT. What are the numbers of each? What is the pay phone number?
Mr. RUBY. The pay phone I don’t know. They took that out. I don’t know
what that is. I never use it.
Mr. HUBERT. It is still there?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What is the number of the regular?
Mr. RUBY. 860-3400.
Mr. HUBERT. Where is that located?
Mr. RUBY. We have one in the marking room as we call it at the back end
of the plant. We have four extensions in the front office where the
girls are. We have an extension phone in my office.
Mr. HUBERT. Are those all on the same line, the same number?
Mr. RUBY. 0400, 1, 2, and 3.
Mr. HUBERT. There are really three numbers?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; then we have another phone, my private line which is
863—I have got to look it up myself. I never use it. I don’t even have
my own number.
Mr. HUBERT. Let me put it this way. Who would have access to those
phones other than the public phone?
Mr. RUBY. I am not through yet. We have some other phones. We do dry
cleaning for J. L. Hudson Co. I don’t suppose you have heard of them.
We have two outside phones that we use in conjunction with their
business. Now you are saying 1962. When are you speaking of 1962, when?
Because we didn’t take over Hudson’s until December of 1962, so those
numbers wouldn’t mean anything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What about 1963?
Mr. RUBY. 1963, yes; we had this.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What are those numbers?
Mr. RUBY. 863-0566.
Mr. HUBERT. Who would have access to those office phones as it were?
Mr. RUBY. Well, most anybody in the office. We have about 10 office
employees, and every once in a while some of the shop employees come up
and use it.
Mr. HUBERT. To make long distance phone calls?
Mr. RUBY. No. As far as long distance, I don’t think so.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you checked the long distance records in any way?
Mr. RUBY. I don’t check them too carefully because we make so many.
My partner lives out of town, and I always talk to maybe Miriam in
the plant. We work together, we buy together sometimes. I talk to the
Benton Harbor plant.