Mr. HUBERT. Manufacture it?
Mr. RUBY. Have somebody make it and distribute it.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it possible that he suggested the name Triangle to you?
Mr. RUBY. It is possible. I am not sure. I am not sure where I got that
name, because I think it was only one call I made, and then they said
they would send me the sample, and that was it. I forgot all about it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did they send the sample?
Mr. RUBY. Yes, yes; if that is the company, they sent the sample.
Mr. HUBERT. And what did you do with it?
Mr. RUBY. Nothing, because I then got the sample and saw what they
wanted for it. I think they wanted 45 cents just for the bearing part,
and then you had to make this board, and knowing something about
manufacturing, Jack wanted to sell it for about $2 retail, so I told
him if the bearing cost 45 cents and the top cost a quarter and you
have got to put it in a box and package it, you can’t come out, because
you have got almost 80 cents cost to manufacture it and you have got
to give the jobbers 50 and 10 above, that means you get 90 cents. You
can’t work on a dime gross profit. And so I discouraged him about
getting in it, so that was the end of that.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he attempt to interest you in getting into this
business?
Mr. RUBY. No; he wanted to make it there in Dallas. He wanted to make
it in Dallas. In fact, he said he was going over, he was going to
have, I think, the Goodwill. I think they manufacture things at a very
reasonable cost, and he said that is how he was going to cut corners.
But I discouraged him anyhow. I couldn’t see it, and it was a good
thing I did because I checked on the sales of the item in the Detroit
area and it was a flop, anyhow.
Mr. HUBERT. Apparently this item wasn’t patented.
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, can you comment as to what you know about an
organization called the Gilt Edge Associates, Finishing Corp., in New
York City?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; that is owned by Elliott Schwartz and his brother.
Mr. HUBERT. What is that corporation? What do they do?
Mr. RUBY. They do finishing on greeting cards. Some of their work is
called flocking, and they put that glittery substance on greeting cards
and things of that sort, and they also do silk screen work.
Mr. HUBERT. And what was your interest in those products?
Mr. RUBY. That is my brother-in-law.
Mr. HUBERT. That is your brother-in-law?
Mr. RUBY. That is the same Elliott Schwartz that you brought up about.
That is the company he owns. I mean that is my brother-in-law on the
wife’s side.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know an organization or corporation, perhaps just a
company, called the James Welch Co.?
Mr. RUBY. James Welch? No.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you comment on what knowledge you have of an
organization called the Ipsilanti Buffing Co.
Mr. RUBY. Never heard of it.
Mr. HUBERT. What about the Public Vending Co.? Do you know of that
organization?
Mr. RUBY. No. Are they in Detroit?
Mr. HUBERT. I don’t know.
Mr. RUBY. I don’t know. It doesn’t register at all.
Mr. HUBERT. What about the Troy Plating Co.?
Mr. RUBY. When I was Earl Products, I used to have so many plating
companies to do work for us. Is this a Chicago concern would you know?
Mr. HUBERT. I don’t know.
Mr. RUBY. I don’t recall that name.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you had any contact with an organization called the
General Scientific Corp.?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, General Scientific? Yes. I think that is the company we
used to buy lenses from for our camera, little glass lenses, if I am
not mistaken.
Mr. HUBERT. Coming back to the Troy Plating Co. in Chicago, do you
recall having occasion to have called them from Detroit on October 21?
Mr. RUBY. Let me see, Troy Plating? What did I call them for? Yes, yes,
yes; I know what it is. I think I know what it is now.
In our cleaning operation we have a liner, a copper liner. It is a
large basket, very large, probably 30 inches in diameter and overall
length of about 4 feet, and it was corroded and the corrosion was
coming off on some of our cleaning, and I couldn’t seem to find anyone
in Detroit to plate it. It was just an odd shape. And so I called, I
think that is the reason I called Troy Plating, to see if they could do
it. However, I finally located somebody in Detroit to plate it.
Mr. HUBERT. Your testimony is that that was the occasion for calling
the Troy Co.
Mr. RUBY. I can’t think of any other reason.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, what about the Dixie Seal and Stamp Co. in Atlanta?
Mr. RUBY. When I took over the nameplate business, that is back from
Oliff, the fellow I had sold it to, Earl Products, and I received a few
small orders for plates, nameplates, and it was foolish to set up my
complete operation for just a few orders, and I knew that Dixie Seal
and Stamp made a very similar item. So rather than my setting up the
whole operation to make the few, I had them make it for me, and so I
called them and talked to them on a few occasions, and they did make
some for me.
Mr. HUBERT. What about the Berger Products Co.?
Mr. RUBY. Berger? Where are they located? That doesn’t strike a bell.
Mr. HUBERT. You don’t recall that?
Mr. RUBY. No. I make so many calls it is hard to remember all of them.
But that doesn’t strike a bell.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you have already mentioned your relationship with
Mike Nemzin.
Mr. RUBY. Yes; one of my very close friends, and his brother is my
partner.
Mr. HUBERT. Apparently you called him on November 14. Do you recall
that conversation?
Mr. RUBY. November the 14th. I could have called him November 14.
Mr. HUBERT. Where does he live?
Mr. RUBY. In Chicago. I think the reason I called then is because
George, his brother, told me he was very sick.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you call him?
Mr. RUBY. I don’t recall. Probably at his place of business.
Mr. HUBERT. Does he have any connection or have any home or business at
a place called Walled Lake, Mich.?
Mr. RUBY. Are you speaking of Mike Nemzin?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. RUBY. No; not that I know of.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anyone in Walled Lake, Mich.?
Mr. RUBY. No. We have customers there, but I don’t know them personally.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall any calls to this place, Walled Lake, Mich.?
Mr. RUBY. No; but since we have customers there, I might have called
and we make so many calls to any of our customers at any given time.
Mr. HUBERT. Would anybody else in your plant be making such calls?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes. We have a girl that does practically nothing but
call customers, for many different reasons, you know. Sometimes they
send in a garment and there is a hole in it.
Mr. HUBERT. Is Walled Lake near Detroit?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; very close.
Mr. HUBERT. But you do have customers that come from that far?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, sure.
Mr. HUBERT. What contacts have you had with the Denver-Chicago Trucking
Co. in Denver?
Mr. RUBY. Well, they are the people that shipped the tools and dies and
the punch press to take the plates to my brother-in-law Schwartz in New
York, and on route they dropped the press and broke it in half, and so
I had many conversations with them before I could get a settlement out
of them. So I called them several times.
Mr. HUBERT. What about a man by the name of Barney Rothenberg?
Mr. RUBY. What is his first name?
Mr. HUBERT. Barney.
Mr. RUBY. It doesn’t register with me.
Mr. HUBERT. Or Horace Settersfield or Dettersfield.
Mr. RUBY. Delderfield.
Mr. HUBERT. Delderfield?
Mr. RUBY. He is my landlord. I lease his home, or rent a home from him.
Mr. HUBERT. Where does he live?
Mr. RUBY. He lives in California.
Mr. HUBERT. What business is he in?
Mr. RUBY. He is retired, as far as I know. In fact, I have never seen
him. I rent through his agent, but I send my checks to him.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you have had occasion to call him?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What was that about and when was it approximately?
Mr. RUBY. Gee, this was right after I moved in there, last fall,
probably September, around in there. When we first rented the place, we
wanted to know if it was all right to decorate, and I think that is why
I called him.
Mr. HUBERT. Coming back to—go ahead.
Mr. RUBY. I called him for another reason, also. Well, I had to call
him and talk about the lease. See, I was taking over, subleasing from
the people that were in there before me, so I think I talked to him
once or twice.
Mr. HUBERT. Coming back to Barney Rothenberg, does it help you any if I
suggest that he lives on Genessee Street in Pontiac, Mich.?
Mr. RUBY. No; now, we go Pontiac. Our trucks go to Pontiac. I don’t
remember calling him.
Mr. HUBERT. Would it be a possibility, then, that that is a customer?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, what about a man by the name of Sidney Jaffe, who
lives in Seattle, Wash.?
Mr. RUBY. Sidney Jaffe?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You have no recollection?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Of any contact with a man by that name?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Henry Kenter?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall anybody in the past mostly by the name of
Chasin?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. The answer is no to Chasin. Do you know anybody in the
Jaffe family?
Mr. RUBY. Did you say do I know anybody in the Jaffe family?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. RUBY. In Chicago I do. Julie Jaffe.
Mr. HUBERT. That is a lady?
Mr. RUBY. No; a man. Julius, I think is the correct name. I really
don’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. How long have you known him?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, about 20 years.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you some to know him?
Mr. RUBY. Well, first, he is in the advertising specialty supply
business, and we used to do business together a little bit. And then I
knew him before. He grew up in the same neighborhood.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what his father’s name was?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any sisters?
Mr. RUBY. I don’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t know a girl by the name of Charlotte Jaffe?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Or Rosalyn Jaffe?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. What about a man by the name of Berke, who married one of
the Jaffe girls?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know any person by the name of Pasol?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of anyone who lives in Muncie, Ind.?
Mr. RUBY. Muncie? No; I don’t think I know anyone at all.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever been there?
Mr. RUBY. I don’t think so; never.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know if your brother Hyman Rubenstein was interested
in Jack Ruby’s twistboard enterprise?
Mr. RUBY. All I know is that he sent him a sample.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know if he attempted to get Hyman financially
interested?
Mr. RUBY. That I don’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you have already said that he did not attempt to
get you financially interested.
Mr. RUBY. No, no. All he wanted me to do was get him the best source
for the different parts and he would assemble it in Dallas himself. I
mean by that, he would have somebody do it for him.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you do know Ralph Paul, don’t you?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I met him in Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. And how long ago?
Mr. RUBY. Well, I first met him, I think it was, down there about 5
years ago.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the occasion of your meeting him?
Mr. RUBY. Through Jack. Jack introduced us.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it just a social meeting or did you have any business
with him?
Mr. RUBY. I didn’t have any business with him. No business was
discussed.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever had any business dealings with him?
Mr. RUBY. No; I know Jack worked with him, but I really don’t know. At
least I think they had business dealings between themselves, but I am
not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any financial dealings with him?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have occasion to lend him any money at any time?
Mr. RUBY. No. [I remember that my brother was going into business with
Ralph Paul and Jack was supposed to put in $6,000 which he did not have
at the time so he asked me to send $6,000 to him or Ralph Paul, which I
did, and I’m sure Ralph Paul endorsed the check but I haven’t located
the check as yet. I don’t remember whether I sent the check to Jack or
Ralph, except that they were supposed to pay the money back to me but
never did. When they informed me that the club had gone broke and they
had no money to pay me, I wrote the $6,000 off as a loss.]
Mr. HUBERT. Did he owe you any money at any time?
Mr. RUBY. Me?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. RUBY. Ralph Paul?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. I call your attention to the fact that in your 1960 income
tax return you claimed a loss as a result of a worthless judgment note
with reference to Ralph Paul in the sum of $6,000.
Mr. RUBY. That went through my company, I think.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about that. Did Ralph Paul do any business or come
to be indebted?
Mr. RUBY. That was through the club. I sent money down to the club.
Mr. HUBERT. Which club? The Sovereign or the Carousel?
Mr. RUBY. I think to organize the Sovereign Club.
Mr. HUBERT. Who did you send the money to, and how much did you send?
Mr. RUBY. I don’t recall exactly. I think I sent more than one figure,
than one amount, that is.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about that transaction in general.
Mr. RUBY. I don’t recall. I would have to see—I don’t recall when I
sent it because it is 4 or 5 years ago.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have occasion to get a judgment against Ralph Paul,
that is to say to sue him?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Here is your return for 1960. It might refresh your memory.
Mr. RUBY. This was sent, I think, to organize the Sovereign Club, and
within 6 months the corporation folded or whatever it was, I don’t
recall exactly. And a new corporation was formed. I can’t think of the
new name, because I was out of the picture then.
Mr. HUBERT. What I was trying to get at is, first of all, how you
had a judgment, how you came to get a judgment against Ralph Paul in
connection with the organization of the Sovereign Club.
Mr. RUBY. I sent the money down, but Jack, if I recall, asked me to
send it.
Mr. HUBERT. Suppose we approach it in another way.
Mr. RUBY. I don’t recall the complete details on it.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us how you came to be financially interested, or
at least to advance money to Jack in connection with a club, the
organization of a club.
Mr. RUBY. He called me and told me he needed some money for a good deal
club that was going to be organized or taken over or something. It was
some other club before.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you then how much he needed?
Mr. RUBY. I think I sent, I am sure I sent this down, if it so states.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean $6,000?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And what was that to be, for the purchase of stock or a
loan?
Mr. RUBY. I think I originally had stock in the corporation there, in
the original Sovereign Club Corp., and I think now at that time, at
that time Paul signed the note. I think this is how this——
Mr. HUBERT. You mean the note for the money that you sent down?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I think something—I am not sure because it was handled
more or less by my accountant. I am not positive how it was set up.
Mr. HUBERT. But I mean your accountant would not have handled the
original sending of the money.
Mr. RUBY. I sent a check, I am quite sure I sent the check.
Mr. HUBERT. To organize the company?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And it was an investment or a loan, that is what I am
trying to get at, or were there two separate transactions? You
mentioned that Paul signed a note, and that would indicate that there
was a loan made of some sort, you see.
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And then you mentioned that you got some stock which would
indicate that the money was for an investment rather than a loan, or
perhaps a combination. And that is what I am trying to find out, what
it really was.
Mr. RUBY. I am really not sure. I am really not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you in a position at that time to advance that sort of
money without investigating the possibility?
Mr. RUBY. Well, it was my brother.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever loaned him money before?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; sure.
Mr. HUBERT. And you have got it back?
Mr. RUBY. No; once before I loaned him some money, several times I
loaned him money that I didn’t get back.
Mr. HUBERT. Since he was in Dallas, you mean?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you never took any notes from him?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I think I did several years before this, but I don’t
recall all the details on that, either.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever pay you anything back on the various loans that
he made from you?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. How much would you say that he owes you now then?
Mr. RUBY. Altogether?
Mr. HUBERT. Well, I don’t mean including the money you may have
expended since November 24th, but I mean up to that date.
Mr. RUBY. I would say altogether maybe as much as $15,000 that I sent
him.
Mr. HUBERT. And you have never got anything in return for it?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever written off those loans as bad debts?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. The income tax return which you hold in your hand there
says it is a worthless judgment note. Do you recall that you actually
filed the lawsuit against Paul and recovered a judgment which you could
not collect?