Mr. SENATOR. Excuse me. The reason I say I feel he didn’t, which I
really don’t know, I don’t think he did, because the safe was able to
be carried. It wasn’t that big thing but when you cement it around you
can’t get to it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this. Was Jack in the habit of putting his
money in the bank?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, Jack’s safe was his car?
Mr. SENATOR. Not necessarily. He had it in his car, he had it in his
pocket, and he had it around the house.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you stated a while ago that Jack felt that if he had
the money locked in the trunk of the car that was as good as being in
the safe?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I did, but I didn’t say all the monies. I said a
certain part of the monies. Now what part of it I don’t know, because I
know he carried some in there. I know he carried some in his pocket. I
know he leaves some at home.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he leave any at home on the 24th?
Mr. SENATOR. If he did I don’t know. I’ll tell you why, the reason I
say that is because he has in the living room that has got one of these
self-locks. Did you ever see these little locks on a door that you can
lock. You know, you can sort of snip it off? It comes off, whatever
kind of lock you call it?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. He has one of them. He had one of them in the living room.
See, his apartment that night was confiscated. I don’t know if it was
the local police. I don’t know who got in there. Somebody got in there,
see.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But it certainly wasn’t unusual, was it, for Jack to carry
all of his money on his person and in his car?
Mr. SENATOR. No; he has done that many times. But I’ll tell you, when
he is putting the money in his car he very seldom ever left it there
for such a lengthy time like that. But this was his safest place as far
as not carrying it all in his pocket.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And he felt that keeping it in the car was safer than
keeping it in the house.
Mr. SENATOR. This I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you say this was the longest time that you can
remember Jack carrying a lot or that much money around with him?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, no; I never said that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you mean to say?
Mr. SENATOR. I never said that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, there have been times when Jack, I take it
there have been periods of 3 days or more when Jack has carried $2,000
or $3,000?
Mr. SENATOR. Or more. No; this is an every day occurrence with him.
This is a thing that materialized 7 days a week.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So there is nothing unusual about Jack Ruby having all
that money in his automobile.
Mr. SENATOR. No; it is always like that. Now if he has any money in
the bank, I mean I can’t quote that because I don’t see that. See,
he carries this money around 7 days a week. Now what he has in the
bank, of course, I have quoted you that once before, I think that was
yesterday, I don’t know what he has got. Only when you ask what bank he
has, when I mentioned the Merchants State Bank, I don’t know if the guy
has got $40 in there or $500, you know what I mean? I don’t know.
Or whatever he has had in there or how he has had it. See, this is an
unusual man when it comes to this money bit. I don’t know how many
times he asked me, “George, where is my money?” making me feel like I
took it but he always misplaced it and always found it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this a large sum of money that he misplaced?
Mr. SENATOR. Sometimes it could be missing $200 or $300 or $400, I
don’t know. Whatever the stake is, he has about 4, 5 or 6 different
stakes in different pockets. This man don’t remember where the money
is. This may sound crazy but it is true.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack own any real estate?
Mr. SENATOR. No; what is he going to use for money for the real estate?
A lot of people are under the impression that Jack had a lot of money.
Jack didn’t. Jack was, what would you classify him, as a walking bank?
Mr. GRIFFIN. He carried all his money on his person regardless of how
much it was.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; this man was making who knows, I don’t know how much
money he has got and I can’t break it down and say he is carrying 10, 5
or whatever. Who knows what he has got or how much it is. But there has
been 2, 3, 4, maybe more.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What, hundred or thousand dollars?
Mr. SENATOR. Thousands, whatever it is. Of course, as I told you, this
all goes to the rent, the help, the electricity, you know, all the
utilities and things. But he is a walking bank.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this common knowledge that he carried all this money
around?
Mr. SENATOR. That was common knowledge to me. How many other people
knew it I don’t know but I am certain other people knew it. Look, when
the help all got paid off they were all paid off in cash. When they
wanted to borrow money they were all paid off in cash. Just like here I
can’t quote how much money he had at any time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now let me ask you to read over what I have
marked as Washington, D.C., April 22, 1964, George Senator Deposition,
Exhibit 5403, and I signed that. It is the report of Agents Rawlings
and Glonek. Would you read that over, and tell me, go through that in
the same fashion as we have with the others.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any additions, corrections, or explanations that
you feel ought to be made to Exhibit 5403?
Mr. SENATOR. Let me go through this fast. I think there aren’t but let
me make sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you before we get into this, was that interview
made at your request?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I was sent for. Why would I request it?
Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t know. Some people call the FBI and tell them they
have something more to tell them.
Mr. SENATOR. No; I was sent for. I have had a pretty good amount of
questioning you know. I, like any other individual of the nature that I
am, I don’t think is too happy about all this. And who would be?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now that you raise that, we might get on the record the
fact that I believe you have expressed to me at lunch during the last
2 days that you feel that this is an unfortunate circumstance in your
life.
Mr. SENATOR. Certainly it is. It ain’t going to do my life any good.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you explain? Would you want to convey some of the
feelings here on the record that you gave to me?
Mr. SENATOR. I feel I will always be pointed at, if anybody knows my
name of the nature of the conditions that surrounds me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You feel a certain amount of shame or disgrace?
Mr. SENATOR. No; let me say there will probably be a disturbance.
They will always point to Jack Ruby’s roommate, Jack Ruby’s roommate,
something of that nature, you know. What does phonetic mean?
Mr. GRIFFIN. That means that they don’t know whether the spelling is
correct, but without knowing how to correctly spell it that is the way
they would write it, from the sound. Mr. Senator, as you read through
that if you come to anything that you think ought to be modified or
changed, why, point it out, because I assume that the two pages that
you have read so far——
Mr. SENATOR. I am reading it pretty fast. I am a little bit on the
punchy side, you know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. If you want us to walk out and sort of relieve your mind.
Mr. SENATOR. No; there is one item in here where it states “He carried
his money in a sack.” This is only partial. It was in his pockets, in
the sack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The trunk of the car?
Mr. SENATOR. The trunk of the car. No, no; mind you if it is in the
sack it goes in the trunk of the car.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Anything else in that interview report that you would want
to——
Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t know if this means anything, it is in his
pocket, to you I mean. I don’t know. This says here where he took the
revolver and placed it on the bag on top of the money. This is not
always——
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he place on the bag on top of the money?
Mr. SENATOR. The gun on top of the moneybag. “Placed it in the bag on
top of the money.” To me it is not important. The gun may be next to it
or something like that, who knows where he put it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now let me ask you a couple of closing questions. One
thing we haven’t talked about here. That was, how many sets of keys did
Jack Ruby have?
Mr. SENATOR. To the clubs?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have more than one key chain?
Mr. SENATOR. I think he had two small ones. I think one for the car,
I’m not sure now. He had keys but I don’t know what they all fit you
know. I think he had one for the car and I think one for the place.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he keep all of his car keys on one ring or did he have
them on two different rings?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t know?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have one billfold or more than one billfold?
Mr. SENATOR. I have never seen a billfold.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You have never seen his billfold?
Mr. SENATOR. You mean to carry his paper money in billfolds? No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Identification and things like that. Did he have a wallet?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think he ever had a wallet. I don’t recall seeing
any.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see his driver’s license?
Mr. SENATOR. Did I ever see his driver’s license?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Or social security.
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When he got undressed at night did he put his
billfold—what did he do with his——
Mr. SENATOR. I never seen his billfold. I think he carries them—what he
carried these things in, he had a little thing, you know a little thing
that opened up and you slide it to one side or the other, sort of like
what, a little money fold.
Mr. HUBERT. Sort of like an accordian?
Mr. SENATOR. No; it didn’t even open up like that. In other words it
opened up like a covered book or one of these little things.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have identification in that?
Mr. SENATOR. I never seen into it. It could be.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it the type of thing you could put identification in?
Mr. SENATOR. I am certain he probably could have.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you recognize it if you saw it?
Mr. SENATOR. The thing?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; that you describe.
Mr. SENATOR. I am not sure. I might. I couldn’t say positive. As a
matter of fact even the coloration, I wouldn’t know if it was green or
black.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have any habit of leaving car keys in his
automobile that you know of?
Mr. SENATOR. I think only at the garage. See, the garage is right
downstairs from the club next door, which they watch his car constantly
because he has rented this place on a monthly basis which he has had
for I don’t know how long.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And where would he leave the keys then, in the ignition?
Mr. SENATOR. I think the keys were left in the ignition.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall if you ever had occasion to look in the
glove compartment of Jack’s car?
Mr. SENATOR. I have looked at it but it is such a jingle-jangle there
that it didn’t mean anything as far as opening it up. There was so much
gook in there, do you know what I mean?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Did you ever have any occasion to look in the trunk
of his car?
Mr. SENATOR. I have seen the trunk open; yes, and that is another slop
house, with a bunch of garbage in there. I told him a thousand times
“How can you open your trunk and not clean it up? How can you keep that
garbage in there.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of things would he keep in there?
Mr. SENATOR. There would be papers. In other words, things weren’t
placed. You take a tire, you think the tire is in the right place? It
could be any place in that thing there, and all the other garbage that
he had in there, and papers, whatever it is. He kept his car like he
kept his apartment.