Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say this might be why he has done some of
the things he did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are drawing this conclusion on the basis of what you
have learned since he shot Oswald, and not on the basis of anything
that you knew beforehand? In other words, these things you have been
talking about, his father and his mother and the separation of the
children, this you first learned after he shot Oswald? You didn’t know
about that when you were living with him?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn’t know about it. I heard him mention that he
had tough days as a kid, but he never talked about them too much,
very, very little. All these things, the majority of the things that
come out, come out after the trial, I mean after the shooting. There,
of course, I think his sisters come out with the majority of it and
probably his brothers, when things had to be related and had to go back
all these years.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Go ahead through there as you have, through that Exhibit
5401, and if there is anything else in there that you think should be
changed or clarified—keep in mind what I am primarily concerned with is
whether this report you are looking at is an accurate report of what
was told to the FBI at that time.
Mr. SENATOR. Let me run through this one: “He added he occasionally
when low on funds would be asked by Ruby to come and stay a day or two
with him until he got back on his feet”.
Of course, this is a comma, and then it continues, but I want to
stop right there. Let me run through the whole thing. “He added he
occasionally when low on funds would be asked by Ruby to come and stay
a day or two with him until he got back on his feet, but he claims he
actually never lived with him until about November 1, 1963, when he
moved into the apartment of Ruby’s, apartment 207, 223 South Ewing,
Dallas, Tex.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; well, that is inaccurate?
Mr. SENATOR. You know that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, my only question to you is when the FBI interviewed
you, and this is on November 24, did you omit to tell them that you had
lived with Ruby on an earlier occasion?
Mr. SENATOR. To the best of my knowledge. I don’t think I did omit
that. I don’t think I did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I think the record is sufficiently clear.
Mr. SENATOR. Now, there are a lot of things I must tell you which I
have told you before. I am not always sure of everything, you know. In
other words, I have to use these words to let you know that I ain’t
lying.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I think the record will be clear from this deposition that
you didn’t live with him before November 1st of 1963.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, unless that you are certain that you did tell the FBI
about living with Ruby before November 1st, I would rather not change
it on there, write it in there, but I would rather simply let the
record show that we are making here, simply let it reflect that that is
inaccurate.
Mr. SENATOR. Let me run back on this one again, part of this again:
“He added he occasionally when low on funds would be asked by Ruby to
come and stay a day or two with him until he got back on his feet,”.
This was never, because the first time I stayed with him was when I
stayed at the club, and then moved with him, because I stayed with him
5 to 6 months, something like that. Of course, I don’t know how you
classify this, how important it is to you or not, because I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there occasions other than the time that you lived
with him for 5 or 6 months that you did come and stay with him for a
day or two?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It never happened?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I was with him. I mean I wasn’t in and out.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now is it possible that you could have told them this in
the anxiety and turmoil that you were under at the time this interview
took place?
Mr. SENATOR. I could probably say that anything at that time, that day,
could be possible. Maybe I feel it isn’t, but let me say that I wasn’t
in the best of condition that day. I would say anybody that was in the
nature that I was in, and I don’t care who the individual was, would
have been shaken up as well as I.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I think again here now the record will reflect, and I want
to go through and point these out as you are doing, but I think the
record again here will reflect what is accurate as to what has actually
happened.
Let’s let this thing stand, unless you are 100 percent sure that you
didn’t say that, let’s let it stand on there as written. By “on there”
I am referring to the Exhibit 5401.
Mr. SENATOR. Now here is a point:
“Shortly after Senator first met him, Ruby opened the Sovereign Club on
the second floor of the building on the southeast corner of Field and
Commerce in downtown Dallas.”
Now this was before I got to him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He was running the Sovereign Club before you met him?
Mr. SENATOR. He was in the Sovereign Club; yes. I don’t know how long
he was in there, but he was in there before I came that close to him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you had known Jack?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, I have known him; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Even when he ran the Silver Spur, didn’t you?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I wasn’t living in Dallas then. That is way before my
time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You knew him before he opened the Sovereign Club when he
only had the Vegas?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, sure. This is the Sovereign Club. Wait a minute. It
says shortly after I first met him. My God, this don’t go that far
back, and I have known Ruby, unless he could have meant the Vegas Club,
I don’t know. Of course, I don’t know how important this is to you
either.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Again here I am glad you pointed this out. Here I think
that this deposition will clear this up.
Mr. SENATOR. Now here is one that says I wasn’t able to furnish the
individual’s name, but I know it now.
“Ruby had a partner in the operation of the Sovereign Club, but Senator
was unable to furnish this individual’s name.”
But we have talked about that name today.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Joe Slayton.
Mr. SENATOR. Joe Slayton; yes, sir. Now I don’t think I knew who it was
then, who his partner was. “Senator can state only that he believes
Ruby to be the sole owner and operator of the present Carousel Club.”
Now there was a backer and I knew him well, but I didn’t know the
conditions.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you reluctant at the time you talked to the FBI to
disclose this?
Mr. SENATOR. No. You mean to hold back on them?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. That is the way it sounds when you say that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. No, no; I wasn’t. As well as I knew him I didn’t know
the formality of what he had to the Carousel as many times as he came
there. I didn’t know what his status was in it. I knew there was a
close—I mean he had a close relationship with Jack. He knew him well.
“Ruby actively managed the Carousel Club although he still as far as
Senator knows owns the Vegas Club,” which we know different now.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you want to go on to the next page?
Mr. SENATOR. I am through with that page.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Look at page 297 of this same report and tell us if there
are any changes or modifications or corrections you want to make there.
Mr. SENATOR. What is I.E., the initials?
Mr. GRIFFIN. That means in explanation. The sentence you are referring
to is,
“Senator was of the opinion Ruby, since he is Jewish, feels somewhat
the same on things of this type as he (Senator) does, i.e., a Jew has
no right to express opinions of any sort, especially when he is in
business, since he has enough strikes against him just being a Jew.”
In other words, this statement about a Jew having no right to express
opinions of any sort is a belief that you have, and the FBI is saying
you believe that, and you think Ruby believes the same thing.
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t believe I said that. I don’t believe I ever said
that. I know that Ruby is a sensitive man as far as when the word “Jew”
comes up, you know, in something he don’t like. He takes tremendous
offense. No; I am not of the nature of Jack Ruby.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then do you feel that a Jewish person has no business
expressing political opinions, and so forth?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, they certainly have a perfect right to express
opinions as anybody else. I would probably say—let me say I think they
are more careful. I can’t speak for every individual, mind you.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think that Jack felt that a Jewish person has no
business expressing——
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Opinions of any sort, especially when he is in business?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know what he felt. All I know is that he gets
pretty sensitive when somebody is knocking it, or jokes and things,
things of that nature, he don’t go for it nohow.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This language which we have been quoting arises in a
paragraph that starts out:
“Ruby never expressed any special political preferences and never even
discussed political matters.”
Then it goes on to state this view, that “A Jew has no right to express
opinions of any sort,” the suggestion being that Ruby never discussed
politics because he didn’t think a Jew should discuss politics.
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know about that. Of course, I can’t quote Ruby’s
words. I can’t think for Ruby like I can’t think for anybody else.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you would say that now your present opinion is that
you have no information about Ruby which would make you believe that he
declined to be interested in political matters because of his Jewish
background, that is, his Jewish background discouraged him or made him
feel that he shouldn’t have this kind of——
Mr. SENATOR. I couldn’t even answer that because I don’t even know. I
don’t even know. All I do know is I know that anybody comes out and
calls him a God-damned Jew or something to that effect, he don’t go for
this nohow, he just don’t go for it. He is sensitive that way.
Now somebody could say it to me and I would probably be able to laugh
it off, whether I did or didn’t like it, but I tell you Jack Ruby don’t
laugh these things off.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He is sensitive about being criticized because he is a Jew?
Mr. SENATOR. That is right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you don’t feel, I take it, that there is necessarily
any connection between his sensitivity to being a Jew and his apparent
lack of interest in politics?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t believe so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. If now in discussing this situation in an atmosphere which
I take it is a little bit more relaxed than it was on November 24th, if
you were to offer a judgment as to why Jack Ruby didn’t appear to be
interested in politics, what would you suggest for the reason?
Mr. SENATOR. I have no answer for it, but all I can say is these things
don’t interest him. He was not interested in these things.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is his primary interest?
Mr. SENATOR. Show business.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about girls? How about sex? Is that an important
interest to him?
Mr. SENATOR. It is as natural for him as it is for any other male human
being.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this a matter, though—was sex something that he
discussed as much as he discussed his business, for example?
Mr. SENATOR. No, no. I don’t say—I don’t say that he hasn’t discussed
it, but I will say that there isn’t any male that hasn’t discussed it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Go ahead with that page 297 and point out any other
paragraphs that you would change or correct.
Mr. SENATOR. In this next column here, the only thing is, “Ruby owned a
revolver which Senator could describe only by saying it was black. This
was kept at the Carousel Club, although occasionally Ruby would carry
it back and forth between the club and his home because he usually
carried a fairly large sum of money.”
Now there is only one little point there I want to bring out, and this
is the point I want to bring out:
“This was kept at the Carousel Club, although occasionally Ruby would
carry it back and forth between the club and his home.”
This was an everyday occurrence.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He carried it back and forth every day?
Mr. SENATOR. When he left the house to go to the club, bingo, that went
with him. When he left the club to go home, that went with him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this. Did he keep the gun in the apartment
or did he keep it in his car?
Mr. SENATOR. He kept it in his apartment.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He kept it in the apartment?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now would he keep it on his person or would he keep it in
a moneybag?
Mr. SENATOR. It has been both ways. It all depends on how he is going
home. I mean, no particular reason. He has kept it both ways.
Now, I can’t quote how many times he has it in his pocket or in
his moneybag, something like that, and I can’t even quote, maybe
occasionally he may have forgotten it and left it in the car. If he did
leave it in the car it would be locked in the trunk.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have the habit of taking the revolver out of the
automobile when he got to the Carousel Club and carrying it up into the
Carousel Club, or don’t you remember?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, he takes it up there, sure. He takes it upstairs. Now
if he does it every day, you must understand that I am not watching
every move Jack Ruby made.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many times did you see it?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t even know. I can’t quote the times, but I would
probably say the majority of times it probably went up, and then again
it may have went up all the time. As I say, I am not watching, looking
for a bag all the time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it also possible he may have only taken it up
occasionally to the club?
Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say the majority of the times it went up.
If you are asking me to break it down, I can’t break it down. First of
all, I am not always with him when he is going to the club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is right. On the occasions that you saw him carry it
up into the club did he carry it up in his pocket or did he carry it in
a bag?
Mr. SENATOR. The times that I have seen him, I have seen him have it in
the bag.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I would think that if he didn’t have a holster it would be
pretty cumbersome to carry that revolver around the club in his pocket.
Mr. SENATOR. I have never known him to have a holster. I have never
seen one, never seen a holster on him, or what do you call these
things, shoulder? I have never seen one.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see a holster in his automobile?
Mr. SENATOR. No. I don’t even know if he even had one. This is a part
that I have had a lot of trouble with, with a lot of people.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What part is that?
Mr. SENATOR. This is the part—this is why I think they were probably
looking at me as a fag or a queer: “Senator on some occasions would
refer to Ruby as a boyfriend.” And I have said that to many people.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did you happen to use that term?
Mr. SENATOR. It is a word I have used all my life, when I was even a
kid. There was no particular reason. My boyfriends, some people may say
“This is my acquaintance.” It happens to be I have always used this
word, no particular reason. Maybe I would probably say it was a habit
more than anything else.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now let me ask you this: You stated to us unequivocally
you are not a homosexual.
Mr. SENATOR. You can be assured, you can be assured. I will say that
Georgie still loves women yet.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is not necessarily inconsistent with being a
homosexual, but I am not suggesting——
Mr. SENATOR. But you heard my words, though, my words they are direct
believe me. And I don’t intend changing it. I may not be that strong,
but I don’t intend changing them. Of course, age is a benefactor.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are talking about your affection for women?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; certainly. I still like the beauty of the female
sex. Let me read the rest of this. Let me quote you something that Mr.
Alexander had me at the first bond hearing—I can’t help but think of it
when I read this “boyfriend” and how many times that has been quoted.
It has never been quoted me direct, but I have heard it hearsay, you
know, things like that. At the bond hearing, the first bond hearing,
Mr. Alexander said to me:
“You and Jack Ruby lived together?” And I said, “Yes.”
He says, “How many bedrooms in the apartment you live in?”