Mr. SENATOR. I think the last time I saw him was after the incident, if
I remember right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And at that time, and this was before you left New York to
live with your sister?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Or left Dallas to live with your sister?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I think it was in December the last time I saw him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He told you at that time he was moving to California?
Mr. SENATOR. He said he was going back to California.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you why?
Mr. SENATOR. No; no particular reason why.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what acquaintanceship or relationship he had
with Jack Ruby?
Mr. SENATOR. As a friend.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they have any business dealings?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever work for Jack Ruby?
Mr. SENATOR. He may have helped him a little bit. Now, I am not sure.
I think he helped him for a very short while in the Carousel, if I
remember, but it was a very short while. Now, how long it was, I don’t
know. It was just a short while, though, I think he helped him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Lisa Starling?
Mr. SENATOR. I knew a girl by the name of Lisa, and I can’t place it. I
am not familiar with the last name. I am trying to figure who, a Lisa I
knew. Now, I knew a Lisa Lynn. Lisa Land I think it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But Gail Hall, Monroe, La.?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know her.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever talk about any friends he had in Louisiana?
Mr. SENATOR. Gail Hall?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. Is there a city?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Monroe, La.
Mr. SENATOR. I have heard him mention Monroe, La.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In what connection have you heard him mention Monroe?
Mr. SENATOR. I think he met a girl once in Dallas that came from
Monroe. Now, if this is the girl or not, I am not sure. I think he met
a girl. I am not sure if he met her at the club, or where it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What about H. G. Tiger?
Mr. SENATOR. Tiger?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. E. Fletcher, F-l-e-t-c-h-e-r?
Mr. SENATOR. E. Fletcher?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. Is there an address or something?
Mr. GRIFFIN. 40 Central Park, something or other.
Mr. SENATOR. 40 Central Park?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Central Park, and I don’t know what.
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. There is a fellow I knew by the name of
Ernie Fletcher. I don’t know E. Fletcher.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that a friend of Jack Ruby? Does he know Jack Ruby?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I mean, I have never seen him with Jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know him in Dallas?
Mr. SENATOR. I knew him in Dallas, yes. I have seen him in Dallas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he do?
Mr. SENATOR. I haven’t seen him in a long, long time, because the last
I heard, I think he was living in New York.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he do?
Mr. SENATOR. I never knew what he did. He was a promoter, but what, I
don’t know. I think he was an oil promoter or something like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Darrell Williams?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, on page 9 of this particular notebook that we have
been looking at, there is the name Vivian, Statler Barbershop.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; there is a manicurist there by the name of Vivian.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack frequent the Statler Barbershop?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. The barbershop he frequented the most was a
place in another section of town.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was that?
Mr. SENATOR. Loma Alto.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It may have been called the Loma Alto?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; it is two words, the Loma Alto section.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What general part of Dallas is that, northeast, southwest,
Love Field?
Mr. SENATOR. Let me say it was on the way up to that way, Love Field.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Towards Love Field from downtown Dallas?
Mr. SENATOR. From downtown. I tell you, the best way I can describe it
to you is it ran off of—I have got a good memory, haven’t I? You are
writing that down, too? I can’t think of the name of the street. I’ll
tell you why he went to this barbershop, which I never knew.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.
Mr. SENATOR. When the barber cuts his hair, he doesn’t like clippers.
He won’t let them use a clipper. He wants everything by hand, and he
could probably drive a barber crazy the way he wants his hair cut. To
my knowledge, I don’t think he lets a barber shave. You know how the
barber shaves you back here?
Mr. GRIFFIN. He won’t let him shave the back of his neck?
Mr. SENATOR. You know why? I’ll tell you why. Because he grows hair too
fast.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This is what Jack told you, that your hair grows too fast
when it is shaved off?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; you know how some of the hairs will grow in the rear
of a person, like mine, I have got a few, the barber will shave them
off. He wants them clipped off.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So he requires the back of his neck to be clipped rather
than shaved?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; now, he has got a barber, he has got this barber who
knows just what to do with him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack concerned about baldness?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, you should only know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us.
Mr. SENATOR. He used to drive me crazy.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us about that.
Mr. SENATOR. Well, he would have these treatments. I don’t know the
name of the place where he got these treatments, and he had the stuff,
you know, they’d rub into his head, whatever this medication. I don’t
know what the stuff was, you know.
I have always seen him use it, whatever it was, and he would rub it
into his head. He spent 45 minutes under a shower when he was really
working with the stuff, and he would rub it into his head. He was
always combing his hair all the time, what little was left, but he
couldn’t stand being bald.
He used to comment, “How does my hair look; how does my hair look?”.
And it was really funny. I used to laugh, but he would get mad when I
laughed at him. But he was very, very particular about his hair.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had he been this way all the time that you knew him, or
was this something that had come on?
Mr. SENATOR. No; this is, of course, as long as, you knew, as long as I
have known him. Actually, I can’t say as long as I have known him, but
as long as I have been around him. Oh, man.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And he actually had some treatments for his hair, didn’t
he?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, sure, sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were these called trichology treatments, or something like
that?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know the nature of the word they used.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he go to some practitioner?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who worked on his head?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he went to somebody, he actually went. And I believe
he picked up all his medication from him, too. They came in plastic
tubes, a little vial like. I would probably say these tubes would hold
approximately maybe about half a pint. He had two different types
whatever they were; one was wash and one was rinse, or what it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And he would use these on his head?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And was this a daily thing that he did?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have any particular ritual, any period of time of
the day that he would do this?
Mr. SENATOR. No; it was just whatever time, not particularly. It could
be in the morning, but I would say it was about every day, once a day
some time, you know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So when you told us yesterday, I believe it was, that Jack
would spend 45 minutes in the bathroom, or something like that, he was
very slow getting up in the morning, was this part of the procedure?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if he did it that day or not. I don’t
remember if he did it that way, but I tell you, when he gets in the
bathroom when he is going through the entire ritual, he takes longer
than a woman.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Part of this ritual would involve this scalp treatment?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Hair treatment?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What else was involved in the ritual?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, of course, the door was closed, you know. I am not
actually watching him. Of course, the shave and the shower.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he shower every day?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes; sure. I will tell you when he really did his big
cleaning up was at night, before going to work. That was when the big
ritual was, he spent a big time in there. But it was really something.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The next one I am going to hand you is Exhibit 5204. This
was used in the deposition of C. L. Crafard. I don’t believe there
are any other marks on here. I am going to ask you to look at this
notebook, or rather, the Xerox pages of a notebook, and ask you, first
of all, generally if you recognize that notebook?
Let me say that the notebook, if you will turn to the first page of
all those papers that are put together, and look at that first page
carefully, you will see that the notebook had written on the cover just
the word “Addresses,” and, of course, we can’t tell from what color the
notebook was or what material it was made out of, how it was bound,
although it appears to be not a looseleaf kind of notebook but one that
was perhaps stitched at the back or something.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you ever recall anything like that?
Mr. SENATOR. I know he had two or three of those little things. Like I
told you before, I knew he had two or three of them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the handwriting in this particular
notebook?
Mr. SENATOR. I assume it is Jack’s.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you don’t actually recognize it as Jack’s?
Mr. SENATOR. I am not sure, but I assume it is Jack’s. To me they sort
of all look like the same handwriting, so I assume they are his.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, look at the first page that has writing on it, which
actually in this exhibit is numbered page 2, and tell us, do you
recognize any of the names there?
Mr. SENATOR. There is one here, and the reason I recognize this name
here, Patricia Stevens, because Patricia Stevens I think is a modeling
school.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In Dallas?
Mr. SENATOR. In Dallas?
Mr. GRIFFIN. And did Jack deal with that modeling school?
Mr. SENATOR. Not that I know of. I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t recognize that name through any association you
had with Jack Ruby?
Mr. SENATOR. No. That is the only way I would recognize the name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize any other names on that page?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Turn to the next page, which is page 3, and tell us if you
recognize any of the names there.
Mr. SENATOR. There is a name here I am not sure of, but it says Thelma
Brown. This could be a singer. I am not sure. Or Bertha Brown. I know
there is a girl by the name of Brown who was a colored girl, who was a
singer, and she has come pretty well up the line. Now, if this is the
girl or not, I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she sing for Jack?
Mr. SENATOR. A long, long time ago when she was smaller. Now she is
big-time. Now, where she is singing I don’t know. I don’t know if that
is her first name, but I know there was a girl by the name of Brown. I
don’t know if it was Thelma Brown, Bertha Brown, or whatever it is. I
am not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize any other names on page 3?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Turn to page 4 and tell us if you recognize any of the
names there.
Mr. SENATOR. Ed Bernet. I have heard that name, but I don’t know what
it is. I can’t make out what it is. It sounds like an entertainer, but
I am not sure. The others I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t recognize any other names on that page?
Mr. SENATOR. No. There is only one other name there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Turn to the next page. Is that page 5?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; and I don’t know who that is. It is just one name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What name is that?
Mr. SENATOR. Bill Capehart. I don’t know who that is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you want to turn to page 6?
Mr. SENATOR. Bob Eisman.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize that name?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t know who he is. There is nothing else but the
name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Do you want to turn to the next page, page 7.
Do you recognize that name, Ham Faust?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Page 8; do you recognize the name there?
Mr. SENATOR. This boy here, he is resting in peace.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Martin Gimpel?
Mr. SENATOR. He died of a heart attack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did he die?
Mr. SENATOR. He died, I would say, I would probably say a year and a
half ago, which tore Jack apart because they were kids together all
their life.
Mr. GRIFFIN. From Chicago?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. He has been gone now about a year and a half, maybe 2
years, I am not sure, something like that. Now, the other name I don’t
know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Ann Gibson. What was Jack’s relationship in Dallas with
Mr. Gimpel?
Mr. SENATOR. He was a tool salesman. He traveled. He sold tools. Now, I
have never seen him sell them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what kind of tools, household tools or
industrial tools?
Mr. SENATOR. No. I think they were industrial tools. To my knowledge, I
think that is what it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Mr. Gimpel have a family in Dallas?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he single?
Mr. SENATOR. When he came here, he didn’t always stay here. I mean, I
haven’t known him that long, when I met him, but when he was here, I
don’t know how long he stayed. He stayed, and traveled. But in this
area, or rather in the Dallas area, or wherever he was traveling, I
don’t know if it was in the State of Texas or out of it, or just where
he traveled. Of course, he stayed with Jack because he didn’t pay no
rent.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack supported him?
Mr. SENATOR. Jack, you know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Page 9.
Mr. SENATOR. There is a name here that I think is an entertainer. I am
not sure, Trinidad, Colo. Wait a minute; that is Trinidad, Colo., but I
knew somebody by the name of Trinidad. There was an entertainer. Cecil
Hamlin.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is he?
Mr. SENATOR. He is with the union. Now, what capacity or what, I don’t
know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Which union?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know which union.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he friendly with Jack?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know, because I have only seen the man one time
in my life, and the time that I saw him I was introduced to him, not
knowing who he was, down at the courthouse, at the courthouse.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that at the trial or the bail bond hearing, or
something like that?
Mr. SENATOR. It was at this trial here, in the lobby.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The Ruby trial?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I saw him in the lobby once. That is the only time I
ever seen the man.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you had never seen him before?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I had never seen him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And you had never heard Jack speak of him?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I have heard the name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How had you heard Jack speak of him?
Mr. SENATOR. Jack has asked me to call him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In what connection?
Mr. SENATOR. There was somebody, there were a couple of people owed
Jack some money, and he asked me to ask Cecil to see if Cecil would
call them to get the money or pick up the money. He had a couple of
hundred dollars out, and he wanted to ask him if he would be kind
enough to collect it for him or try to collect it for him, or call them
up, or something of that nature. I don’t know the rest of them. Page 10.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize any of the names on page 10?
Mr. SENATOR. I think he had a stripper, a part-time stripper, at one
time, I am not sure. Of course, I don’t know if this is, but this says
Grapevine.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Grapevine, Tex.?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; but I don’t know. A girl by the name of Linda, but I
never knew her last name, so I don’t know if this is her or not.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Page 11.
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know who this is. I have seen this name before on
other pages, Jeanie. I don’t know what that is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Page 12.
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know who that is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Page 13.
Mr. SENATOR. Latin Band, is that what that says?
Mr. GRIFFIN. It looks like that.
Mr. SENATOR. I am thinking of Larry, the kid who works at the club, but
what would the Latin Band be? I don’t know who that is. I don’t know
who this is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Page 14.
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Page 15.
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know who that is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This doesn’t have a page number.
Mr. SENATOR. This is a repeat of the other.
Mr. GRIFFIN. A duplicate of the previous page?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t say it is a duplicate of the page, but the
name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s read the name so that the record is complete. Pat
Sancipian, Patricia Stevens. Xavier Cugat?
Mr. SENATOR. I know the name. Who don’t know it?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack never talked to you about him?
Mr. SENATOR. No; where he got it, I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Turning to another page, which doesn’t have a number on
it, Sam Schwartz.
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know who that is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Robyn Hoy Smith, Tom Teel?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know who that is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And turning to the last page, which is numbered 20, it
simply says Elizabeth. You don’t recognize that name?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you another book that is marked Exhibit
5202, which was used in the deposition of C. L. Crafard, and it is a
blue spiral notebook with the word “Penway” written on the front. It
is called a “Penway Memo Book.” Look through that.
Mr. SENATOR. Is this Jack Ruby’s book? I can’t picture him writing like
that. This is terrible handwriting.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are looking now at the Crafard Exhibit No. 5202. Do
you recognize the handwriting in that book?
Mr. SENATOR. There is only one person who I think possibly could write
like this.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is that?
Mr. SENATOR. I would have to guess, and say probably Andrew, maybe. I
am not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you don’t recognize it as Jack Ruby’s handwriting?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think it is. I don’t think this is Jack Ruby’s
handwriting. Jack don’t write this bad. This is terrible writing. I
don’t think that is Jack’s handwriting.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You have had a chance to go through this notebook. You
mentioned, looking at page 1 of Exhibit 5202, in which there is written
some words such as “Save, Vegas Club, Jack’s home,” and so forth. And
there is the name Buddy, with the words “Fort Worth” written after it,
and a telephone number underneath. Do you recognize that?
Mr. SENATOR. This could be probably this guy that he was going to have,
I imagine, I am not sure, probably made those twistboards.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the name Buddy?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I have never seen him; no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You mentioned the name St. Charles.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And St. Charles is written on this first page, with a
telephone number under it. Do you recognize that?
Mr. SENATOR. That probably is his home number.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember St. Charles’ number?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember the number offhand; no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack Ruby ever have anything to do with Mr. St.
Charles?
Mr. SENATOR. No; nothing whatsoever. He knew him. He used to go through
and buy some medicine, or whatever it might be, a toothbrush, and
things of that nature.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. St. Charles ran a drugstore?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, he has a drugstore in the Statler Hilton Hotel.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Mr. St. Charles have any connection with Jack Ruby’s
twistboards?
Mr. SENATOR. No; nothing. Never knew he had a twistboard. I would
venture to say that this book here, this is only one person I think who
has a handwriting like that, that would write this here. This probably,
this could be, though I have never seen this book, the handwriting
looks like Andrew’s, Andrew Armstrong, the colored boy. This is what I
think it is. I am not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this. You made the remark that you know
that St. Charles didn’t know anything about the twistboards.
Mr. SENATOR. No; not to my knowledge.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But have you talked with St. Charles since Ruby shot
Oswald, and have you learned from St. Charles that he was unaware of
the twistboards?
Mr. SENATOR. I have seen St. Charles exactly one time since then.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What prompted you to make the statement that St. Charles
didn’t know anything about the twistboard?
Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say, to the best of my knowledge, he
didn’t know anything about the twistboard.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You would be surprised if he did?
Mr. SENATOR. If he did, I can’t say. It is possible that he did, but I
would say, to the best of my knowledge. I can’t say positively. I don’t
think he did. Now, I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Turning over page 1, look at the names there. There are
two names at the bottom of the page. You testified about Abe Klinman.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, the attorney. That is Earl Ruby, and Ed Pullman,
which I mentioned before to you.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. I can’t even read the first name. It looks like Leona or
Lena.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Leona?
Mr. SENATOR. Miller; is that who it is?
Mr. GRIFFIN. It might be.
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know who that is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Clark Dotty?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Turning over to page 2, do you recognize any of the names
on that page?
Mr. SENATOR. This says Mar-Din?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. This is another name, Henry Denture. I wouldn’t know who
that is. Earl Products.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I will skip over the back of page 2 because there is
nothing on there that you haven’t talked about. Look at page 3.
Mr. SENATOR. I can’t even understand what that last name is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are referring to the first name on there.
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know what it is anyhow, but I can’t even read the
last name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t recognize any of those names there?
Mr. SENATOR. No; that is Shay, I believe, isn’t it?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, Ruth Shay.
Mr. SENATOR. No. I think we talked about this one before.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now on the back of page 3 you have mentioned
Stanley Kaufman.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But there is a Riky Kasada.
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Scotty Milles or Mills?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t recognize that?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. On page 4, Norma Bennett?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Judy Armstrong?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Burt Nelson?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Floyd Turman you mentioned previously.
Mr. SENATOR. Buddy Turman.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that the name?
Mr. SENATOR. No; his name is Buddy. Wait; he comes from Tyler, Tex.
Yes, here it is. This says Buddy. I didn’t know him by his first name.