Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn’t continue after Jack killed Oswald?
Mr. SENATOR. Nothing. I didn’t do anything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after Elmer Moore talked with you, you were then
interviewed some time later by two FBI agents, Mr. Rawlings and Glonek?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; that is correct.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember where you were staying at that time?
Mr. SENATOR. I think I was staying with Lauve. The first approximately
10 days you know, I was just jumping around. But from there on in I was
with Lauve.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you stay with the Lauves?
Mr. SENATOR. I must have stayed with them, I would probably say
approximately around 5 weeks, I think.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you leave Dallas?
Mr. SENATOR. I left Dallas, I think it was about the end of the first
week, if I remember right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Of what?
Mr. SENATOR. January.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And when did you return to Dallas?
Mr. SENATOR. It was the latter part of February. I think it was the
last week in February.
Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were away from Dallas, where were you?
Mr. SENATOR. At my sister’s.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is Freda Weisberg in New York?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your occasion for returning to Dallas?
Mr. SENATOR. I knew I had to be a witness because I was called on the
first bond hearing.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That was your occasion?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. For returning?
Mr. SENATOR. I had to come back as a witness.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In the bond hearing?
Mr. SENATOR. No, no. I was at the bond hearing before I went away. I
think I was at the first bond hearing. I don’t remember the date, but
it was in December sometime.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that before or after you talked with Agents Rawlings
and Glonek that you appeared at the bond hearing?
Mr. SENATOR. That was before because I remember one day that I met one
of the agents. As a matter of fact, I was in the lobby of the Adolphus
Hotel and one of the agents hollered out, “Hi, George” and I turned
around to see who it was. It happened he was talking to some other
agents and they were departing, they were going home.
So I walked over to him and I asked him who would I notify if I wanted
to, who would I notify with the FBI that I was going to leave, that I
wanted to go home but I wanted them to know where I was going, and he
mentioned, call Mr. Clements.
Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time of the first bond hearing, who was
representing Jack Ruby?
Mr. SENATOR. Mr. Belli, Joe Tannenbaum—not Tannenbaum, Joe Tonahill.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Anyone else?
Mr. SENATOR. Tom Howard was in it, but at that time he had no say.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What happened that Howard was not given any say?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, I am not sure how to relate it, but I think that
Earl Ruby, who was in Detroit then, was still in Detroit, spoke to some
lawyer I think in Chicago now. I think it was in Chicago, looking for a
lawyer, a big lawyer for Jack Ruby, and this lawyer to my knowledge, if
I understand it right, was quoted to get Mr. Belli.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And how about Tonahill? How did Tonahill get in?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. Tonahill, it seems, must have been a friend
of Belli. The relationship I don’t know, how they met or something of
that nature.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you talked to Jack Ruby between the time you last saw
him that Sunday morning, the 24th of November, and now?
Mr. SENATOR. In the jail.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you talked to him?
Mr. SENATOR. In jail, sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you talk with Jack?
Mr. SENATOR. Various times, various times that Sheriff Decker would let
me up.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see him before the bond hearing?
Mr. SENATOR. I think I did, yes. I think so. I think I was up there. I
mean I can’t quote dates. I don’t even remember what the date of the
bond hearing was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember the first time you went up to see him?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go up with anybody?
Mr. SENATOR. No, I went up alone. The reason for that, the reason I
say I went up alone is because nobody was up there, allowed up there,
besides the family and maybe very, very close friends because Sheriff
Decker wouldn’t allow anybody in.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you spend with Jack that first time?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember. You know, they have got a limitation on
you. I don’t remember just how long I talked to him. It wasn’t too long
because they let you know that you have got to go.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us what happened on this occasion.
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember what it was. First of all, I never talked
to him, I would never ask him what happened. I never talked about that.
I talked about anything else, and he was telling me, he said he wanted
me to look up certain people, the locales, tell them where he was and
things like that there, like sisters and Gordon McLendon which he asked
me to go, whom I never saw, never got to.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was Jack’s relationship with Gordon McLendon?
Mr. SENATOR. He just knew him. There was no relationship. He mentioned
a lot of names. He mentioned a lot of names to call them for the bond
hearing. I remember this. He was trying to get certain people to come
to the bond hearing. And he was rattling off a lot of big names. He
rattled off the manager, I don’t remember the name, from the Statler
Hilton, anybody who was prominent, such as I think the rabbi too if I
am not mistaken.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack appear to want to make bond at that time?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. He didn’t discuss that, but I do know—I
can’t answer unless you want me to surmise something, guess on it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Unless you have some information which leads you to think
how he felt.
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t have information on that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever talk to the lawyers about whether they were
really serious about making bond?
Mr. SENATOR. I think the lawyers were trying to get bond for him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever talk with them?
Mr. SENATOR. No. I will tell you something. The lawyers didn’t discuss
anything with me at no time. They said, “George, we are going to use
you as a witness,” which I knew they wanted me for that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There came a time when Howard was no longer part of the
case?
Mr. SENATOR. He was part of the case; he was still part of the case
when I left, you know, but how big his say was I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you got back for the trial, however, he was not a
part of the case; is that correct?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I think he was out of it before I got back. I am not
sure, but I think he was. I don’t think he was in the case.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you returned for the trial, did you have occasion to
talk with Howard at all?
Mr. SENATOR. I saw him on certain occasions.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever learn how he happened to get out of the case?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, he got out of the case—I mean I really don’t know,
but I feel he got out of the case because he was—there was nothing,
practically, to speak of. I guess that is about the best way to
describe him. He had no say.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it something he had told you?
Mr. SENATOR. What?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it something he had told you?
Mr. SENATOR. No, no. But he had no say any more. So I don’t know how to
classify his sitting there, just being there with no say any more, no
nothing. After all, when he originally started, he was the leadman, you
know, and then all the things materialized after that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many times would you say you saw Jack Ruby in his jail
cell between the time that he shot Oswald and the time that he was
tried, actually went to trial, in Dallas?
Mr. SENATOR. How many times?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. A guess?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Your best estimate. Try to give some thought to it.
Mr. SENATOR. Let me see now. I would say maybe 10 or 15 times, I would
guess.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you notice any change in him over this period of time?
Mr. SENATOR. Sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you first notice that he was changing; that there
was some change?
Mr. SENATOR. I saw him very few times, you know, previous to when I
went away, but his change—when I really noticed the change was after I
came back.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This was in February?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. After the 18th of February?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. His voice was getting lower, and his head was hanging
down, and this is the way it was all the way up until the period, even
after the trial. I don’t know—I don’t know how to describe the words;
you call it deterioration or whatever runs through him; I don’t know. I
would never ask him anything like that, you know. I never spoke about
anything like that; anything but that.