Mr. SENATOR. I was just in fear that is all which is a natural instinct
in a situation such as this.
Mr. HUBERT. I am not saying it is not natural.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. But I am trying to see if you had any idea in your own mind
what you were afraid of. Now obviously you were afraid of being hurt.
Mr. SENATOR. Certainly I was afraid.
Mr. HUBERT. Possibly being killed?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; now of who or what I don’t know. It could be a
crackpot. I don’t know what it could be.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you give some consideration to the thought that whoever
had been involved with the killing of the President might want to kill
you?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I didn’t know who to fear. It was just a
natural instinct. I would imagine anybody in the same situation would
probably fear something. It was just a natural thing for a human being
to do.
Mr. HUBERT. I am not criticizing you, Mr. Senator; at all. I am just
trying to find out the reason.
Mr. SENATOR. No; I had no reason or any particular thing. There was no
reason for it.
Mr. HUBERT. You mentioned one, that a crank might try to hurt you.
Mr. SENATOR. A crank might. Yes; I can’t measure what or who. It was
just a fear.
Mr. HUBERT. Isn’t it your thought that there might be some group of
people who might want to hurt you?
Mr. SENATOR. I can’t say it was a group or what it is or who it may be.
Mr. HUBERT. I understand that you don’t know of any group?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. But didn’t it cross your mind that there might be a group
who would want to get rid of you for some reason or other?
Mr. SENATOR. This didn’t enter my mind that it was any group or
anything of this nature here. All I knew is I had a fear. I don’t know
who, but something. I was just afraid, that is all.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you arm yourself in anyway?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I never armed myself in my life. The only gun I ever
had is when they had me overseas. That is the only time I ever had a
gun. I never carried a knife or a gun in my life.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you do during these several days when you were in
effect afraid? Did you move out in the open or did you stay——
Mr. SENATOR. I was afraid of the nighttime, not the daytime. In other
words, I wanted—I didn’t want to be in an isolated place anywhere. It
is not that I wasn’t out at night or daytime, which I was, but I didn’t
want to be in an isolated place. In other words, I wouldn’t want to be
walking down a lonely street or something like that because that would
scare the life out of me. But around groups or something like that, I
didn’t fear it that much. Now what I feared I don’t know, but it was
just a natural thing I feel any individual would fear.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you communicate that fear to Jim Martin?
Mr. SENATOR. Not only to him but to many of my friends. I said, “I’m
just afraid.”
Mr. HUBERT. It was for that reason that several of them put you up?
Mr. SENATOR. That is right. I told them I was afraid. They said “What
are you afraid of?” You know people say, “What are you afraid of?” I
said, “I’m just scared, that is all”—and who wouldn’t be?
Mr. HUBERT. So your friends also were asking you as I have been as to
what would you be afraid of. That is a fact isn’t it?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; they asked me, “What are you afraid of?” I said, “I
don’t know, I’m just afraid, that is all.” I can’t say who I am afraid
of. I don’t know who I am afraid of.
Mr. HUBERT. I know that you wouldn’t know necessarily individuals, but
you must have done something——
Mr. SENATOR. Or groups, individuals or groups as you mentioned. I can’t
place my finger on it.
Mr. HUBERT. But what I am suggesting to you is that your fear came from
the thought that any individual or group that had anything to do with
either the slaying of the President or the slaying of Oswald may have
you in mind next?
Mr. SENATOR. No; my thoughts didn’t run that way. My thoughts were
nothing but fear, and I didn’t have my mind on any groups or anything
like that. I just didn’t know. It might be an individual crackpot
walking the streets, who knows, he doesn’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; I think that is a very understandable reason that you
gave us as to the crackpot.
Mr. SENATOR. It could be. I don’t know what it could be.
Mr. HUBERT. It went beyond that though, didn’t it?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Just your fear of a crackpot?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. That is all it was?
Mr. SENATOR. When you say “beyond that,” what do you mean “beyond that”?
Mr. HUBERT. That your fear went beyond the mere fear that a crackpot
would hurt you, your fear and your thought about the matter went to the
point that some people other than a crackpot might——
Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn’t think that way.
Mr. HUBERT. Then are you willing to say that it was only your fear of a
crackpot?
Mr. SENATOR. I use “crackpot” as one but I don’t know how to describe
it. Who knows what it could be. It could be an individual walking the
street, I don’t know. When I was scared I had no particular thing in
mind. It was just I was scared, that is all.
Mr. HUBERT. Did it ever occur to you during this period when you were
frightened that Jack Ruby might have been set up by someone to kill
Oswald?
Mr. SENATOR. Run that back again. Let me understand it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did it ever occur to you at anytime after the shooting and
when your fears began to develop that Jack Ruby might have been part
of a plot to kill Oswald, and that there were others involved in the
matter?
Mr. SENATOR. None whatsoever.
Mr. HUBERT. That never occurred to you?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. And that was not any part of the basis of your fear?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. As I understand you then, you considered right from the
start that this was an individual act on the part of Ruby, unconnected
with anyone else?
Mr. SENATOR. Run your words again. I’ve got to follow you.
Mr. HUBERT. I say as I understand it then your thoughts from the very
beginning were that Ruby’s action was his own and that no one else was
connected with it?
Mr. SENATOR. Did you say his actions was his own when this thing
happened?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; and that you never considered that anyone else was in
it at all but Jack Ruby?
Mr. SENATOR. No; definitely not. I never thought of anything such as
that.
Mr. HUBERT. I don’t understand your answer. Pardon me. You wouldn’t
think of anything such as what?
Mr. SENATOR. To me he wasn’t connected with anybody whatsoever of any
nature.
Mr. HUBERT. You think that now and you have always thought that, is
that correct?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he wasn’t connected with anyone.
Mr. HUBERT. Therefore, your fears could not have been based upon the
thought that anyone that he was connected with would want to hurt you,
obviously, since you never thought that he had any connections?
Mr. SENATOR. No; he didn’t have any. Let me put it this way. Even today
I still have a certain fear. Now you ask me what I fear today, I don’t
know. This is something you just don’t erase out of your mind, that is
all. This is not a little thing; this is a big thing.
Mr. HUBERT. After that Sunday night, when you talked to the lawyers for
awhile, you went home I understand to Jim Martin’s?
Mr. SENATOR. If I remember right, I’m not sure but I think Jim put me
up because I was afraid to go home and I didn’t have a place to go to.
If I remember right I think he did. I think I went to his apartment,
his home rather.
Mr. HUBERT. I am moving to the next few days, Mr. Griffin.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever given any consideration to the thought or to
the possibility that someone else might have been associated with Jack
Ruby?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In the killing of Oswald?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am not asking you whether you ever believed such a thing
but whether you ever explored that possibility in your own mind?
Mr. SENATOR. No; never could think of anything such as that. Jack was
a true American. He loved his country. This is for sure. He loved the
land that he lived in as I have told you.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicated before that there were a lot of things Jack
didn’t talk to you about.
Mr. SENATOR. That Jack would talk to me about?
Mr. GRIFFIN. That he did not, Jack didn’t talk to you about everything
he did?
Mr. SENATOR. Jack lived in the show business type. This is his life. He
lived in the glamour of the show business.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you feel that Jack talked to you about everything that
he was doing?
Mr. SENATOR. Who can answer that? How could I answer that? How could I
really answer that and know?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, sometimes you associate with a person and you know
he is the kind of person who doesn’t go out and talk about everything
he is doing, in fact that he is the kind of person who is reticent to
talk about some of the things he is doing.
Mr. SENATOR. I would say Jack was the type that would not hold back to
my knowledge, that would hide anything. I don’t think he would hide
anything from me. I can’t say positive but I don’t think he would.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, he didn’t discuss his relationships in the Vegas
Club or in the Carousel Club with you.
Mr. SENATOR. That is right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. To any extent, did he?
Mr. SENATOR. Look, his money parts he isn’t going to detail to me how
much he is taking in and things of that nature or who he owes or what
he don’t owe. I mean I wasn’t confided in that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he talk to you about any of the problems he was having
at the club?
Mr. SENATOR. He had problems, you know, he had problems with his sister
because they were of the same nature. They were cat and dog fighters.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he having any problems with the Federal Government?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, I assume he was. What they were I don’t know.