Mr. SENATOR. The thing is I never asked him the thoughts within him or
what he was thinking about.
Mr. HUBERT. Did it occur to you that maybe somebody ought to talk to
him about it, that his grief was going to the point, or his condition
of being upset was going to the point that somebody ought to talk to
him about it?
Mr. SENATOR. I know he visited his sister, and, of course, both were in
grief together, and I don’t know if he contacted his rabbi or not.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you mentioned a little while ago that he told you
he had been to the——
Mr. SENATOR. To the synagogue.
Mr. HUBERT. To the synagogue?
Mr. SENATOR. If he talked to the rabbi, I don’t know. Now, I know that
he went to the synagogue that Friday night to pray for the President.
Now, if he had personal contact with the rabbi I don’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether he went to the synagogue on Saturday?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I really don’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. You left him at the house when you left?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you left at approximately 12:30?
Mr. SENATOR. I would say something around that nature.
Mr. HUBERT. He would certainly not have gone to the rabbi then, to the
synagogue, on Saturday morning.
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I mean I couldn’t answer that. I wouldn’t
know.
Mr. HUBERT. Maybe you can, or at least you can give us some facts. He
was asleep when you awoke at 10:30, isn’t that right?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; but he was up. He Was up when I left.
Mr. HUBERT. And you left at 12:30?
Mr. SENATOR. I am only assuming within an hour.
Mr. HUBERT. So it could have been 11:30?
Mr. SENATOR. 11:30, 12, 12:30. I can’t say because actually, you know,
when this period is going on, I am not watching clocks. I don’t own
one. I can’t go by a timetable because I didn’t have the time.
Mr. HUBERT. Certainly, he didn’t leave the house from the time he got
up until you left.
Mr. SENATOR. No; I left first.
Mr. HUBERT. That is correct.
Mr. SENATOR. Now, what time he left I don’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. But he didn’t leave the house from the time you got up
until the time you left?
Mr. SENATOR. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, perhaps we can fix the time when you left a little
better by going on and seeing where you went. I ask you where you went?
Mr. SENATOR. Saturday where did I go? Saturday I think I stopped down,
I think my first stop was down at the coffee shop. I think I went down
for coffee, and my whereabouts, I don’t even know where I went that
day because I don’t work on Saturdays. I guess I probably just as well
stood around. Just where I went, I remember where I went Saturday
evening, but I don’t remember where I went Saturday afternoon. Just no
particular place or anything unusual.
Mr. HUBERT. You do recall that your first stop in any case was the
coffeeshop?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Which one was that?
Mr. SENATOR. I think it was Eatwell Coffee Shop that I went to.
Mr. HUBERT. You had sort of breakfast and coffee?
Mr. SENATOR. Coffee and. Maybe coffee and a doughnut or coffee and a
bun or something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. You were driving the Volkswagen?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You were not on business?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. And you say you have a distinct recollection of some event
that night?
Mr. SENATOR. Of where I was?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. Oh yes; because when I came home that night, I think it
was around somewheres between 7 and 7:30, I think I come home that
night, and I come home with some groceries that I wanted to make. So I
made some groceries and——
Mr. HUBERT. Was Jack home at that time?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he was gone.
Mr. HUBERT. He was not there?
Mr. SENATOR. No; he wasn’t there.
Mr. HUBERT. That was about 7:30?
Mr. SENATOR. I would say I think it was around 7:30. So I made the
groceries and then I left some for him, and I ate and I was assuming
that maybe he would be home by the time I was making the groceries. But
he wasn’t home, so after I ate I went out again.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you been drinking that afternoon?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember. Possibly I may have had a beer or two.
I just don’t remember. I am not a heavy drinker. I am not a drunkard,
mind you.
Mr. HUBERT. No; I didn’t mean to infer that at all, but I was wondering
why it was that you couldn’t give us any indication of where you went,
whether it was one or several places between noon or 12:30 until 7:30
that night. I think you can remember some of the things, some of the
places.
Mr. SENATOR. Well, let me see.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t come home until 7:30?
Mr. SENATOR. No. I was out.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you follow any usual Saturday afternoon routine?
Mr. SENATOR. No. There is nothing. There is no routine. Saturday, there
is no routine.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t call on any customers?
Mr. SENATOR. No; nothing. Just out, that is all.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you riding around for 7½ hours?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go?
Mr. SENATOR. This is what I am trying to think, where did I go. I don’t
remember if I called my lawyer friend or met my lawyer friend or not
that day.
Mr. HUBERT. Who is your lawyer friend?
Mr. SENATOR. I have got—Jim Martin. I don’t remember if I called him.
Once in a while I’d have a beer with him.
Mr. HUBERT. But you don’t know whether you had a beer with him, I
suppose?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember. I just don’t remember the routine of the
day. There was nothing that I did in general.
Mr. HUBERT. You did go to some grocery store to pick up the groceries?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember which one that was?
Mr. SENATOR. Sir?
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember which grocery store it was?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I think I went to Safeway.
Mr. HUBERT. Safeway?
Mr. SENATOR. Safeway.
Mr. HUBERT. On what street?
Mr. SENATOR. That is on Jefferson.
Mr. HUBERT. Well now, does the recollection of that fact, which must
have been what you did almost immediately before going home—let me put
it this way. Was your trip to Safeway to pick up the groceries the
thing that you did immediately before you went home?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. So it would be safe to say, wouldn’t it, that you went to
Safeway around a half hour to an hour before you went home?
Mr. SENATOR. I probably had gone maybe around 6:30 or 7, something like
that.
Mr. HUBERT. Does that help to refresh your memory as to where you had
been just before you went to the grocery?
Mr. SENATOR. Is it possible to forget?
Mr. HUBERT. Why yes, of course, it is.
Mr. SENATOR. Mind you this is 5 months.
Mr. HUBERT. But it is my duty to explore the possibilities.
Mr. SENATOR. I know that. If I could think and help you out I would be
happy to, if I knew. I just can’t place, place to place, where I have
been. I may have been out having a beer or I may have been out chewing
the fat with some friend of mine. I just don’t remember what I was
doing that day.
Mr. HUBERT. It may be that if you think about it a bit more you can
help us a little later on.
Mr. SENATOR. I could if I wanted to, I could have made up a fictitious
story to you and say that I sat in the bar for 3 hours or I was out
with some girl or something like that. He is writing all this down. But
I am telling you the truth.
Mr. HUBERT. I don’t want you to tell us something that is fictitious.
If it is a fact that you do not remember, then that is the fact and
that is all we want to know. I think that sometimes one’s memory is
refreshed, as it were, by events. If you can’t remember it now, we
will come back to it a little later and see if you can recollect what
happened in this period of about 6 hours on that Saturday afternoon.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert, unless you want to pursue this further, let me
ask him a question.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, go ahead.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicated that you might have visited with Jim Martin.
Is this someone that you see regularly?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. Jim is an attorney down in Dallas, a very good friend
of mine, who on occasions I will have a beer with. Now, possibly I may
have had it and I just don’t remember. I go to see him often, or I meet
him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is Jim single?
Mr. SENATOR. Pardon me?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is he a married man?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, he is a married man. He is the one who also was on
the Ruby case for a while.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where are his offices located?
Mr. SENATOR. On Main Street. As a matter of fact he just moved
recently. He was on Main Street, and he is still on Main Street, but
the lower part of town in what they call the Lawyers’ Building.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you accustomed to visiting at his home?
Mr. SENATOR. I go to his home once in a while, yes. I have eaten dinner
at his home or I have went up there and cooked for him once in a while.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you known Mr. Martin?
Mr. SENATOR. I would say roughly around 2 or 3 years I guess, something
like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to meet him?
Mr. SENATOR. I think I met him through a friend of mine one day, if
I remember right. I think we were having a cocktail one day in the
Burgundy Room. I think this is how I met him. I am not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Has he represented you in any legal matters?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is he a friend of Jack Ruby?
Mr. SENATOR. He knows Jack. I believe all the lawyers in Dallas know
Jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall if you visited in the area where the
President was shot, on Saturday?
Mr. SENATOR. What?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall if you visited in the area where the
President was shot?
Mr. SENATOR. Was I down there?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. No. I drove by. I mean I didn’t stop. I drove by there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any errands or chores or anything that you
customarily do on Saturday?
Mr. SENATOR. No, nothing in particular, no. I will tell you Saturday I
just don’t like to work. I just don’t like to do anything particular,
you know. Of course, I would say that, of course, Saturday is a wash
day. It is not that I wash every Saturday, you know, or launderette
day. I do my own.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you do Jack’s also?
Mr. SENATOR. No. Jack doesn’t even do his own. He sends them out, but I
do my own.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you do your laundry?
Mr. SENATOR. Downstairs in the apartment. There is a couple of washers,
two or three washers, and a couple dryers right in the apartment. It is
like these machines similar to the store like.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Does Jack use those? Did Jack use those?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have some particular place he sent his laundry?
Mr. SENATOR. He takes it out and has somebody do it for him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know where that was?
Mr. SENATOR. I was there one time with him when he was picking up
his laundry. If I am not mistaken, I think it was on the McKinney or
Fitzhugh, Fitzhugh or McKinney. I think it was somewhere up in that
neighborhood. But Jack, he takes his laundry and sends it to this
place. He takes it over. But instead of him doing it, he has a girl do
it for him, and they straighten it out for him when it dries up and all
that there. Then he will come back and pick it up. If he don’t pick it
up one day he will pick it up the next.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He takes it over to this laundry?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The girl does it for him at the laundry?
Mr. SENATOR. She does it with the soap and powder and all that. They
have girls over there, a couple colored girls.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This would ordinarily be a self-service laundromat?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But there are people there so that if you don’t want to
serve yourself they will do it for you?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; that is the nature of this place.
Mr. GRIFFIN. His brother Sam, wasn’t he in the laundry business?
Mr. SENATOR. Sam fixes those machines. I think Sam was employed by
somebody. I don’t know who he was employed by, but he fixes these
washers.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But he doesn’t have washaterias?
Mr. SENATOR. Not to my knowledge; no. I think he is an employee.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This area that you are describing, is that in the general
Oak Cliff area that you people lived in?
Mr. SENATOR. No, no. This is in town.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Downtown?
Mr. SENATOR. Not downtown but you have to go through downtown to go
uptown.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What section would you call this section?
Mr. SENATOR. That area would be I would say sort of north—northwest
part of town I think.
Mr. HUBERT. While you are on the laundry subject, wasn’t there some
equipment in the basement of the building you were in?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I said I did mine but he don’t do his.
Mr. HUBERT. When you came home, as I understand it, it was about
7:30, and you fixed a meal for yourself. Before I pass for the moment
from this period on Saturday afternoon, let me ask you this. You were
interviewed I think by the FBI and by Elmer Moore of the Secret Service
very shortly after these events, by the FBI, I believe, on Sunday the
24th?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. No; first the police had me, the local had me.
Mr. HUBERT. The local police?
Mr. SENATOR. Then from the local they put me into the FBI.
Mr. HUBERT. Did they question you at that time as to your activities
during this period of 6 hours on Saturday afternoon between roughly 12
and 6 or 12:30 and 6:30?
Mr. SENATOR. No; they questioned me, I believe they questioned me from
Friday.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell them at that time that you had no recollection
of what you had done during this 6-hour period?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember what I told them. I don’t know if I was
asked that, if I can remember right. I believe the questions they asked
me, if I remember right, is when was the next time I saw Jack that
day, if I remember right, that when I left, what time did I leave that
Saturday, and I believe when was the next time I saw him, if I am not
mistaken, if that is the way it ran.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you give the police a written statement?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You signed a written statement for the police?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; they made me sign a written statement.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what time it was that the police
questioned you on Sunday?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I’ll tell you why I don’t remember. When they grabbed
me, they took me and shoved me into some little room all by myself, and
I don’t wear a watch because I am allergic to watchbands. I can’t wear
a watch. And I don’t know how long I was in this little room.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that in the evening or the afternoon on Sunday?
Mr. SENATOR. That was the afternoon.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And had you talked with Jack Ruby up to that time, between
the time of the shooting and the time that you were questioned by the
police?
Mr. SENATOR. The last time that I saw Jack Ruby is when he left Sunday
morning. That is the last time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And you didn’t see him again on Sunday?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, I saw him when they waltzed me by. When the police got
through with me they waltzed me by to the FBI, that is when I saw him
through a glass.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But never talked to him?
Mr. SENATOR. No; couldn’t get near him.