Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Since the shooting?
Mr. SENATOR. I heard somebody mention once that he went up to see his
Rabbi Silverman who I am certain you probably heard of I guess, and I
don’t know if he had two or three dogs with him or what it was. I’m not
sure of the words he used but I think he said to the Rabbi “I want you
to meet my family” or something like that. There was a quotation he
used. Now this may have been it, I’m not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. Were there other people that you remember who commented to
you about Ruby and his dogs? You have mentioned one. That is that he
was——
Mr. SENATOR. I heard two things already. One was “my family” and one
was “my wife,” which absolutely has——
Mr. HUBERT. Both of those you heard prior to the time Jack went to jail?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; these were prior to it, but when I heard it it was
after, see.
Mr. HUBERT. I see. You mean that the remarks were made prior?
Mr. SENATOR. The remarks were made after, that is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Wait a while, let me get that straight, the remarks were
made after?
Mr. SENATOR. After.
Mr. HUBERT. But the occurrences were supposed to have, the facts were
supposed to have occurred prior?
Mr. SENATOR. Prior. Right. Prior I never heard.
Mr. HUBERT. You do not remember having heard anything prior to the
shooting?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. What was your own opinion as to his attitude toward these
animals?
Mr. SENATOR. Like any other human being who had a dog for a number of
years.
Mr. HUBERT. There was nothing abnormal about it?
Mr. SENATOR. Nothing. To me, there was nothing absolutely abnormal
about it. Just like anybody else having a dog, and I am certain anybody
who has a dog he has had about 5, 6 or 7 or 8 years who is very much
attached to him. I would probably say the overall picture of the
majority owners are attached to a particular dog of whatever the dog
may be.
Mr. HUBERT. There is some rumor if you want to call it that that at
some time or another Jack had a strange sort of relationship with one
of the dogs. Have you any comment to make on that?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t listen to that stuff because it is not true.
Mr. HUBERT. Of course, you never saw anything of that sort yourself?
Mr. SENATOR. Never, never, and I tell you this from my heart.
Mr. HUBERT. From your knowledge of Ruby and his relationship with the
dog, do you think that that is likely or unlikely?
Mr. SENATOR. What?
Mr. HUBERT. From your knowledge of Ruby and of his relationship with
those animals do you think that such a story is likely or unlikely?
Mr. SENATOR. That he would have?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. No; that is so far-fetched I don’t believe in that stuff.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you be a little bit more explicit about why you feel
that way?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, I feel that I have been around him enough to see him
pet the dog, and I pet the dog many times. I picked up the dog many
times like anybody else has picked up a dog and just scratched him on
the head but I have never seen an incident like this, at no time.
Mr. HUBERT. What about his interest in physical culture and keeping
himself in good shape? There have been some reports about that but you
are in a position perhaps to give us further details about it.
Mr. SENATOR. Well, he loves to swim, and when he gets into a pool he
can really go from one end to the other and go, because I heard it
mentioned one time he said “George you know I used to be able to swim
2 or 3 miles” which I would probably say is a pretty good distance. I
know I can’t do anything like that, or nowheres near it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he do any ice skating?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, we were ice skating once.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he good at it?
Mr. SENATOR. He was good because—I’ll tell you why he was good, because
he had never been on ice skates before.
Mr. HUBERT. You just know of one occasion he had been on ice skates?
Mr. SENATOR. Sir?
Mr. HUBERT. You just know of one occasion that he was on ice skates?
Mr. SENATOR. I was with him and a group of people one time. They asked
me to go, too, and did I suffer.
Mr. HUBERT. That was the first time he had been, too, to your knowledge?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if that was the first time we had been. I
mean I was only there one time. That was over at the fair ground in
Dallas, but he had been I think twice. And the people who he was with,
you know, we had some of the show folks there of the help, the people
who worked there, thought he did very well for a man who had never been
on ice skates, including his age.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he take any regular exercise so far as you knew?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; his dumbbells. He didn’t do them every day but he
did them quite often. Not the dumbbells; what do you call the things,
weightlifters.
Mr. HUBERT. Weightlifting equipment?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. He had them in the house?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, he exercised and very frequently he used to go to the
YMCA which he went for quite a long while. He has gone to the Y before
I ever knew him or even became acquainted with him.
Mr. HUBERT. What was his general physical condition?
Mr. SENATOR. Excellent.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he a powerful man?
Mr. SENATOR. A powerful man?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. I’ll tell you, I won’t want to get rapped by him.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever heard of any of his episodes in which he
tangled with people?
Mr. SENATOR. I have never had the pleasure—I can’t say pleasure. I have
never really witnessed a battle with him. Now I have seen him poke a
couple of people.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean between him and other people.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I have seen him poke a couple people.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about those, would you?
Mr. SENATOR. Take for instance in the club. All right, here is a man
who is of a temperament you know, he is a temperament man. He has a
temper. And I would probably say that he flies off, if you want to
compare us, I am an angel when it comes to flying off compared to him,
because he can go this fast, you know. I mean he can fly off pretty
well. If somebody was hollering or out-of-line or pinch a girl which
happens now and then while the girls are dancing he doesn’t like this.
Mr. HUBERT. You said you remember two specific instances. Could you
just tell us about those.
Mr. SENATOR. I’ll tell you one.
Mr. HUBERT. About where they happened and the time.
Mr. SENATOR. I saw one happen, this was outside of the club, this one.
Do you want it in the club or out of the club?
Mr. HUBERT. Any one.
Mr. SENATOR. This was outside of the club.
Mr. HUBERT. When was it?
Mr. SENATOR. Last year.
Mr. HUBERT. About what time last year?
Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say it was sometime last summer.
Mr. HUBERT. The summer of 1963?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what happened.
Mr. SENATOR. I was sitting in the Burgundy Room. You know where the
Burgundy Room is?
Mr. HUBERT. The Adolphus Hotel.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I was in there having a drink and I was sitting with
this fellow here.
Mr. HUBERT. Who, what fellow?
Mr. SENATOR. His name?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. Don Taber or Tabin.
Mr. HUBERT. T-a-b-e-r or T-a-b-i-n?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You were with that man?
Mr. SENATOR. I was with him for a while but he shifted. He saw some
girl and went over to talk to her.
Mr. HUBERT. So you were alone at the table?
Mr. SENATOR. I was sitting there. I was sitting at another table and I
assumed he come in looking for me to see what I was doing.
Mr. HUBERT. Who came in?
Mr. SENATOR. Jack Ruby. Jack don’t like to have me drink. He doesn’t
like to see me getting drunk. He thinks I’m always drunk all the while
which I am not. And as he walked in through the door, this Don Taber
was getting pretty well loaded. He had a few drinks in him, you know,
and he has always had a grudge against Jack for some reason or other,
I don’t know what it was, and Jack was always telling him “Don, I want
you to stay away from me” and I have heard him warn him once before by
the club, downstairs from the club. Well, he used a pretty obscene word
with him. I don’t know if you want to take this down or not?
Mr. HUBERT. On the occasion in the Burgundy Room?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; you tell us what happened exactly.
Mr. SENATOR. I think he told him to go “F” yourself.
Mr. HUBERT. Go what?
Mr. SENATOR. Do you want me to use the word?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. He told him to go —— himself.
Mr. HUBERT. Who told who?
Mr. SENATOR. Don to Jack.
Mr. HUBERT. Told that to Jack?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he is a type, he is a great guy when he is sober but
when he isn’t he is not easy to get along with you know.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean when Jack came in?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Taber or Tabin told him that?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And there had been no previous conversation between them?
Mr. SENATOR. No; because he has always picked on Jack for some reason
or other.
Mr. HUBERT. Let me get the picture. Jack walks into the room and this
man Taber says “Go —— yourself?”
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. To Jack?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Then what happened?
Mr. SENATOR. I forgot what Jack says. Jack says something to him. Then
I think there was an answer back or something, I just don’t remember
but all I know is Jack let him have it, hauled off.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean he hit him?
Mr. SENATOR. He hit him.
Mr. HUBERT. With his fist or what?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any knucks?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Or pistol?
Mr. SENATOR. It was his fist, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What happened?
Mr. SENATOR. So they got into a little battle.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack knock him down with that first blow?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. So they actually squared off?
Mr. SENATOR. They squared off. It didn’t last long though.
Mr. HUBERT. What happened?
Mr. SENATOR. They stopped it but the other fellow got the worst of it.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he knocked off his feet?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he a big man, this Taber?
Mr. SENATOR. He was a little taller than I. I believe he was a little
taller than I. But I would probably say he is a chap about maybe around
I would say between 165 and 170 or 175. I am not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. And how tall?
Mr. SENATOR. I would say he is probably, and I am only guessing, I
would say maybe 5 feet 9 inches or 5 feet 10 inches.
Mr. HUBERT. How big a man is Jack by the way in point of height and
weight?
Mr. SENATOR. Jack I think, is about 5 feet 9 inches.
Mr. HUBERT. And weighed what?
Mr. SENATOR. Jack weighed around 185, somewheres around that, 185.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you consider most of that was bone or muscle or did
he have much fat?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, he is 52. I don’t care how you drill yourself, I am
certain there is a certain amount of flab that hangs around the side
which I didn’t dare comment on. If I told him that he didn’t like it.
But still there is a certain amount of flab, but he had a powerful
back. I mean to look at the man’s back at his age, he had a tremendous
back.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he fast with his fists?
Mr. SENATOR. I would say for his age he was.
Mr. HUBERT. When you saw this battle with Taber?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, he was pretty fast.
Mr. HUBERT. And he definitely got the best of him?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What about the other occasion?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, there was one occasion where he hit somebody I
didn’t catch it with my eye but I happened to be there. I was there and
he hit a guy bigger than him. I don’t remember what it was.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us where that was, in the club?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, it was in the club. It was in the hallway near the
stairs. But it happened to be I didn’t see it because I happened to be
around the side and all I caught is the tail end.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know when?
Mr. SENATOR. That was in 1962.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he knock the man off his feet?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. But I know he got the first lick in.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you know that? He told you?
Mr. SENATOR. No, I heard he always gets the first lick in. He ain’t
going to get hit first if he can help it, if it comes to an argument.
Mr. HUBERT. Is this the opinion that is generally held?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if that is the opinion that is generally held
or not.
Mr. HUBERT. What I am trying to get at is how you got it. Is that your
opinion then that he always gets the first lick in?
Mr. SENATOR. I would say so because he is pretty fast for his age.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the provocation for his hitting the fellow at the
club?
Mr. SENATOR. I think this chap here was getting a little loud. I don’t
remember what the incident was. I think he was making a scene there of
some nature.
Mr. HUBERT. Those are the only two occasions that you yourself knew
about from having observed them yourself?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, I have seen him push somebody out without hitting him.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you seen that often?
Mr. SENATOR. No, I don’t say often. I have seen it happen. And when it
has happened, he happened to hold down certain people.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever hear him threaten anybody?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Like throwing them down the stairs?
Mr. SENATOR. I have heard somebody talk about that. Who did I hear? Oh
yes, I’ll tell you where that was quoted. When I was on the witness
stand and Mr. Alexander asked me that.
The question he asked me, if I can quote him, was that he picked on
nothing but small men who were drunk and women who were drunk and beat
them up.
Mr. HUBERT. What was your answer?
Mr. SENATOR. If I recall right, he sort of hollered at me a bit if I
remember right.
Mr. HUBERT. Who did?
Mr. SENATOR. Mr. Alexander.
Mr. HUBERT. But in any case what is the truth?
Mr. SENATOR. What did I answer him?
Mr. HUBERT. What you answered I suppose is the truth. What is the truth
as to that question.
Mr. SENATOR. I’ll tell you how I answered him.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes, all right; tell us that first.
Mr. SENATOR. I answered him, I said to Jack Ruby, height has nothing to
do with it, or something to that effect if I remember right. It doesn’t
make any difference if the man is bigger than Jack Ruby because that
isn’t going to stop him. Jack Ruby isn’t afraid of height or size,
something like that I answered him.
Mr. HUBERT. That is your opinion now, too?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you base that opinion on what?
Mr. SENATOR. In other words, I base this opinion to say, when I was
asked this question on the witness stand, that all he would do would
beat up people who were smaller than he and who were drunk.
Mr. HUBERT. And you think that is not so?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I say that he doesn’t go according to size. I mean I
know that he doesn’t fear anybody who is taller than he is.
Mr. HUBERT. Now how do you know that? How do you form that opinion
right now?
Mr. SENATOR. How do I form that opinion?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. Because I think Jack is of that temperament where size
don’t mean anything to him.
Mr. HUBERT. You just base that upon your general knowledge of the man?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I don’t think he is of the nature who would back off.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see him act in what might be considered brutal
in the sense that he went further than he had to go with reference to
anything?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I have never witnessed any.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know or have you ever heard of an occasion where he
had a fight with a man who bit part of his finger off?
Mr. SENATOR. I haven’t seen it. I mean I see the finger. I have heard
that, yes. How it happened I don’t know. There was some sort of a fight
and the guy bit it. Now what happened I don’t know but I’ve heard that.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack ever talk to you about it?
Mr. SENATOR. No; as a matter of fact I have noticed his finger, you
know, I have seen his finger but I never asked him why, because it
happens to be we both got the same type finger. Mine is a paper cut.
His cut much more off than mine.
Mr. HUBERT. He never told you how he lost that part of the finger?
Mr. SENATOR. He told me that he lost it, somebody bit his finger in
a fight. Now I don’t know if it was the Silver Spur or wherever it
happened. I just don’t remember where or how it happened.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever hear about him beating up a taxicab man who
came in to fetch a fare, or to collect a fare?
Mr. SENATOR. I have never seen it.
Mr. HUBERT. You have heard about it?
Mr. SENATOR. I have heard about it. I never heard no names or anything
of that. I heard about it but I have never seen it.
Mr. HUBERT. Now you have expressed to us your opinion that Jack is a
man who was not fearful of anyone irrespective of size. Would you give
us your opinion as to whether or not he was the type of man, from all
you know of him, who would be brutal in a fight? By brutal I mean when
he got his man down he would kick him and be sure he was down, kick him
in the groin, in the head or something of that sort?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I couldn’t answer that. I have never
witnessed anything of this nature.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you an opinion?
Mr. SENATOR. You would ask me guess then and if I guessed I wouldn’t
know what I was guessing at.
Mr. HUBERT. I would ask you to guess on the same basis that you
expressed an opinion that he was afraid of nobody.
Mr. SENATOR. He certainly wasn’t afraid of size. In other words, if the
man happened to be 6 inches taller than him he wouldn’t back off.
Mr. HUBERT. And that was formed I think you told us from your general
knowledge.
Mr. SENATOR. That is right. He wouldn’t back off.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your opinion from your general knowledge?
Mr. SENATOR. Now when you ask me about kicking and all that, I mean I
don’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. You know the man and that is all I’m asking. Is he the type
of man who would do that in your opinion?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think so. First of all I don’t think so.
Personally, I don’t think so, but after all I can’t answer for what
another individual would think in his mind. I don’t know, see.
Mr. HUBERT. We understand this is merely your opinion, you see.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I don’t personally think so. I don’t think he would
be that brutal.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You saw him in this fight with Taber or Tabin?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, but there was no kicking.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to ask you about this. I take it this was not a
prolonged thing. Jack hit him once and that was it?
Mr. SENATOR. No, no; there were probably six or eight blows swapped.
But I would say Jack got most of the blows in.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And this guy swung. What caused Jack to stop? Did somebody
pull him off?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; they stopped it. They stopped it and pulled off.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This episode at the Carousel that you saw, you say you
didn’t actually see any blows thrown at the Carousel. You came in at
the tail end of it.
Mr. SENATOR. No; I would say, see, there is an archway; in other words,
it is going up a flight of steps.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. And at the flight of steps the doors open and then there
is a walk in, you know, an archway. It is almost like in a closed
archway which is maybe about 20 or 25 steps. Well, around the =L= shape
of it I didn’t see.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you tell from where you were how many blows were
thrown?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did this last?
Mr. SENATOR. It didn’t last long because there must have been one or
two blows and that was it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did anybody come in and break that up?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know what happened. I just don’t remember what
happened there. I think he knocked him down. I’m not sure. I think he
knocked him down with that blow.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack accomplish his purpose?
Mr. SENATOR. There was a few people gathered around and the next thing
I think they took him down or something like that. I don’t know. I just
don’t recall what happened on that particular incident but I do know
that something did happen at the time where this fellow I think he was
drunk. I really don’t know if he was. I think he was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever talked with Jack about what his attitude is
about using his fists?
Mr. SENATOR. No; this, which I don’t know too much about his youth, it
probably comes from the bringing up of his youth, the poverty that the
family went through. His father was a habitual drunkard, of which I
have heard, and the separations of the family and they lived in a cold
water flat and the only way I’m familiar of something of this nature is
what I have seen in motion pictures of past years of this.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want you to tell me now if you think I am wrong. I am
going to suggest this to you and I want to know if this is a fair
evaluation.
Would you say from what you know of Jack that the background that he
came from was such that he had the value that one of the ways you
solved problems is in certain kinds of situations you haul off and
smack the guy, and that this is a tool that people use? Now there are
some people who in their daily life wouldn’t hit anybody because they
don’t think that is a proper thing. Would you say that Jack looked at
this as a tool that was perfectly acceptable to use?
Mr. SENATOR. To tell you the truth if I answered it I don’t even know
if I would be answering it correctly. I would probably say maybe in
certain aspects yes and maybe others no. I really couldn’t answer
correctly. I couldn’t give you a truthful answer on it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why is that that you couldn’t give an answer?
Mr. SENATOR. Because I couldn’t, because I can’t think for what the man
thinks.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t know that much about him?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. To be able to say that?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I would probably say maybe in certain
instances it may happen. Maybe in others it wouldn’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask it this way. Knowing Jack Ruby, would you say
that there are situations where Jack would haul off and hit a guy, not
because he was emotionally concerned but because he felt this was the
way to solve the problem at that particular point.
Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t think so. I don’t think so. I would probably
say that he would have to be beefed up pretty good about something
before he hit somebody. I would probably say that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that the case with the man at the Carousel?
Mr. SENATOR. Apparently the man, which I never saw, apparently he must
have done something wrong. I don’t know what it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But this wasn’t something where he built up a head of
steam on this guy.
Mr. SENATOR. Maybe this is something that just went off
instantaneously. Maybe the guy said something to him which I didn’t
know. Maybe he called him a curse word, you know. I don’t know what it
could have been.
Mr. HUBERT. You have indicated along here in your testimony,
particularly in answer to a question of a little while ago, that he had
a fast temper. I think you said he was a man of temper. I think that
was your phrase?
Mr. SENATOR. Agree.
Mr. HUBERT. And you snapped your fingers and said he would just go like
that.
Mr. SENATOR. He could have a pretty fast temper.
Mr. HUBERT. Now that must be based, that is to say your impression must
be based upon episodes when you witnessed him losing——
Mr. SENATOR. I witnessed him on me, but not hitting me.