Mr. HUBERT. Ruby had another apartment in the same building?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, yes; we lived, you know, one apartment next to the
other. Now, the reason Corbat moved was because he got married August
8, and there I was in the apartment alone and I couldn’t handle it
alone. But I did stay there 2 months with a struggle.
Mr. HUBERT. So then when did you move from that apartment to Ruby’s
apartment?
Mr. SENATOR. It was the first week in November of 1963.
Mr. HUBERT. By the way, would you state for the record what was the
number of the apartment you and Corbat had?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know the number. I said Maple Avenue. The
apartment was Granberry. You mean on Maple Avenue?
Mr. HUBERT. No.
Mr. SENATOR. Room number?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; on South Ewing.
Mr. SENATOR. 223 South Ewing.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the apartment number that you lived in with Corbat
which was next door, you say, to Jack’s and what was Ruby’s number. I
want to get that in the record.
Mr. SENATOR. I think Ruby’s was 206 and mine was 207, if I recall.
Mr. HUBERT. They were next to one another, or opposite?
Mr. SENATOR. No; in other words, you go along this corridor. There is
one apartment here. Right next door there is another apartment.
Mr. HUBERT. And they are numbered in sequence?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; 206, I believe his was 206 and mine was 207,
something like that. I think it was 206 and 207.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, for a moment, let’s go back to Frank Irwin, who was
one of your roommates. Have you seen him lately?
Mr. SENATOR. No, I have not seen Frank in, oh, I imagine it must be a
couple years.
Mr. HUBERT. What was he doing when you last saw him?
Mr. SENATOR. What does he do?
Mr. HUBERT. What was he doing then?
Mr. SENATOR. I believe he is a guard for the Bell Helicopter.
Mr. HUBERT. What about James Young?
Mr. SENATOR. James Young works for a finance—I think it is a finance
corporation called Warner.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you last see him?
Mr. SENATOR. I saw him, he was coming through, he was working out of El
Paso and he was being transferred, I think he said to Oklahoma City,
and I saw him that one day, rather, that one night in Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. What time?
Mr. SENATOR. At night.
Mr. HUBERT. No; what day?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, I don’t remember.
Mr. HUBERT. What time of the year, what month?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, I think it was in December.
Mr. HUBERT. Of 1963?
Mr. SENATOR. I think so, in December 1963.
Mr. HUBERT. When had you seen him prior to that time?
Mr. SENATOR. Prior to that time? I don’t remember. It could have been a
couple years, I guess.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you mentioned that there was another man, a third
man——
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Whose name you couldn’t remember at the time. Can you
remember his name now?
Mr. SENATOR. Jack Loftus.
Mr. HUBERT. L-o-f-t-u-s?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, that is correct, Jack Loftus, and he lives in
Hillsboro, if he is still there.
Mr. HUBERT. What is his occupation?
Mr. SENATOR. I think he works for a newspaper down there now in
Hillsboro.
Mr. HUBERT. Texas?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, Hillsboro, Tex.
Mr. HUBERT. When was the last time you saw him?
Mr. SENATOR. I saw him the same night I saw Young. I may have seen
him after that. I know I have seen him a couple of times, but I don’t
remember if it was after that or before that. I don’t remember that,
but I do definitely remember seeing him the last time in December. This
part I do remember.
Mr. HUBERT. That was the same day you saw Young?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that just a coincidence or was it a plan?
Mr. SENATOR. No, no; no coincidence. They were looking for me and I’ll
tell you where I saw him. I saw him up at Jack Ruby’s club.
Mr. HUBERT. That was after Oswald was shot?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. They were looking for you for what reason?
Mr. SENATOR. Sir?
Mr. HUBERT. For what reason were they looking? Why were they looking
for you?
Mr. SENATOR. Just friends, that is all, because I had lived with them,
you know, for a while. Nothing particular.
Mr. HUBERT. I suppose, too, they had known that you were in the
apartment with Ruby.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Of course, it was national news.
Mr. SENATOR. They had read of the incident or heard of the incident
somehow.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long was that after Ruby killed Oswald that you saw
them?
Mr. SENATOR. These two boys?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. I think it was in December now. I don’t remember if it was
a week, two or three. I’m not sure. I just don’t remember.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you relate it to say Christmastime, Christmas day?
Mr. SENATOR. It could be. I just can’t think of when it was. Possibly.
Mr. HUBERT. How long prior to then had you seen Loftus?
Mr. SENATOR. Before?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes, say before Oswald was shot. How long had it been since
you had seen Loftus?
Mr. SENATOR. Let me put it this way: I can’t quote it. I really can’t
quote it, but I would say that he lived in Hillsboro and he used to
come up on weekends and I believe he stayed with his friend in Irving,
Frank Irwin.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the friend’s name?
Mr. SENATOR. Frank Irwin.
Mr. HUBERT. I-r-w-i-n?
Mr. SENATOR. I-r-w-i-n, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And that person lived in Irving, Tex.?
Mr. SENATOR. Irving, yes; he lived in Irving. Now I used to run across
him once in a while. He used to come up you know for the weekend.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he know Ruby?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, he knew him casually.
Mr. HUBERT. What about these others, Frank Irwin and James Young?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if they knew Ruby.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Stanley Corbat know him?
Mr. SENATOR. Casually, because Stanley and I lived next door to him.
But, of course, Stan never went to his club unless I took him there.
Mr. HUBERT. Stan got married, of course, and that is why he moved out
of the apartment?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Where is he living now, in Dallas?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know the number, but I think he is living on
Munger Street.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you seen him since Oswald was shot?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, sure.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you come in contact with him, socially?
Mr. SENATOR. I just happened to run across him one day. I ran across
him once in a delicatessen.
Mr. HUBERT. Just once?
Mr. SENATOR. In the delicatessen. I ran across him once in a
delicatessen. Then I ran across him another time. As a matter of fact,
I ran across him I think it was twice since the happenings.
Mr. HUBERT. What does he do?
Mr. SENATOR. He is a buyer for a department store. He buys women’s
budget dresses.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Which department store?
Mr. SENATOR. Titche.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is in Dallas?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where is that located?
Mr. SENATOR. That is I think on Main Street. I think it is on Main
Street.
Mr. HUBERT. Let me ask you a few other questions about yourself.
Have you ever been in any difficulties with the law, that is to say, by
way of charges?
Mr. SENATOR. No; the only incident I ever had with the law, and I have
been asked many times before on this already, that one night—this goes
back maybe 3 or 4 years ago—there was another chap and I, we went to a
cocktail lounge and we both had two scotches and water. We crossed the
street and I think we crossed the street against the light because in
Dallas they are very meticulous of crossing against the lights, and we
went into the coffee shop to get something to eat. We no sooner got in
the coffee shop than two cops nabbed me, us rather. They said we were
drunk. Now I wasn’t any more drunk than he was.
Mr. HUBERT. Did they charge you?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; they took us down to jail, 4 hours to sober up, but I
had nothing to sober up with.
Mr. HUBERT. Did they follow up with any charges?
Mr. SENATOR. No; we were fined $15.
Mr. HUBERT. You were fined?
Mr. SENATOR. I believe it was $15.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that the only time?
Mr. SENATOR. The only time in my life.
Mr. HUBERT. The only time you have ever been arrested?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. There have been no other charges?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Also I gather from the fact that you got an honorable
discharge, that you had no difficulties with military justice?
Mr. SENATOR. Never.
Mr. HUBERT. During the war?
Mr. SENATOR. Never, none whatsoever.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, while you were living in Miami, did you have occasion
to get to know or meet or make friends with, either one, any person who
would be classified as gamblers, professional gamblers?
Mr. SENATOR. Professional?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to any gambling houses?
Mr. SENATOR. Me? No; of course I’m certain there must be sneak gambling
you know, like anyone else. They call it sneak gambling, you know, you
do it under cover. But at that time when I got down there, I think it
was either shut down or close to being shut down. I don’t remember just
what year it was. They just clamped down, you know.
Of course, I remember when I first went there as a kid, everything was
open. Slot machines used to be on the streets and all that.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you yourself ever done any gambling?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I’m no gambler. When you put it this way, I will
put it this way: You mean have I played poker at home, 5 and 10 or
something like that?
Mr. HUBERT. No.
Mr. SENATOR. No; the only time that I ever did any gambling was when
I was overseas. I was in the jungles for approximately 3 years. What
other recreation did we have? So we gambled.
Mr. HUBERT. I want to explore a bit more the means by which you
obtained money to live during the 2½ years that you were apparently
unemployed, at least no earnings were reported, that is to say, from
July of 1958 until the first of 1962.
Mr. SENATOR. What years?
Mr. HUBERT. According to the records, there were no earnings reported
for you by anybody nor did you apparently report any yourself from July
roughly of 1958 until January 1 of 1962, or the first part of 1962.
Mr. SENATOR. Approximately about 4 weeks ago the Internal Revenue had
me and they called me right after I got off the witness stand at the
Jack Ruby trial that they wanted to see me.
Mr. HUBERT. Go ahead.
Mr. SENATOR. They gave me a notice to come up and see them. They
allowed me 10 days to come up and see them, which I did.
When I was unemployed, when I lost my job I think it was in 1958, when
I was with Rhea, which is a very depressing feeling, I don’t know how
to explain this, I really don’t know how to explain it to you, I didn’t
file. Why I didn’t file I can’t even answer, I don’t know why I didn’t
file.
Mr. HUBERT. Before you get to that, maybe we ought to get to this part.
You say you lost your job. You are talking about being with Smoler’s?
Mr. SENATOR. No; that was with Rhea.
Mr. HUBERT. You were with Smoler’s a long time. What caused you to lose
your job there?
Mr. SENATOR. With Smoler Brothers?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. As I say, they weren’t happy with me and I wasn’t happy
with them.
First of all, I’ll tell you they had cut down the territory and they
were unhappy with the type business I was doing. So, this was a volume
house, and the type operation was, I don’t know if I classify, if I
tell you $3.75 a dress, I don’t know if it means anything to you or
not, but at this price range, at the wholesale price range, you have
got to do a volume business to make any money. And through this they
weren’t happy. And I wasn’t happy because they had cut my territory
down so, so we parted good friends. I wasn’t making any money anyhow
over that.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you had times with Smoler’s when you had done
considerably better?
Mr. SENATOR. There were times that I did better. I don’t say that I did
a fantastic job with them, but I have done a little better than that.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you been able to make any savings to carry you forward?
You see, that is what I want to get at. We find when you left Smoler’s,
you go to Rhea’s——
Mr. SENATOR. Excuse me, before I went to Rhea I had other odd jobs you
know that were nothing to speak of.
Mr. HUBERT. Here is what I want to get at.
Here is a period of 2½ years, you had to have some money to live on
or people gave you money or something of that sort. Now tell us about
that.
Mr. SENATOR. I lived on handouts.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about it.
Mr. SENATOR. I lived on handouts. When I mentioned these boys here and
I was living on handouts with them. In other words, I used to cook for
them and wash dishes and things of that nature. I was really depressed,
extremely depressed and down and out, and they slipped me five, three,
two, whatever it was, and I helped them along in the house there and
they kept me for a while.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not pay any part of the rent?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. And that is true for that whole 2½-year period?
Mr. SENATOR. It wasn’t two and a half. I would say it was approximately
a year and a half, to my knowledge. I don’t think it was 2½ years.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You went from Smoler Brothers to Rhea directly?
Mr. SENATOR. No, no; I say I had the odd jobs directly.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how much time was there between Smoler Brothers and
Rhea?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think there was much time between them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What would you say, 3 months?
Mr. SENATOR. It’s hard for me to really guess. I’d have to make such a
fantastic guess I wouldn’t know if I was right or wrong.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This was not too long ago. This was back in 1957.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, if I told you 3 months I don’t know how close I’d be
and if I told you 6 months I don’t know how far I’d be.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You say you had odd jobs. Can you be more specific?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, I was with another dress house for a short while,
which didn’t last too long.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Doing the same kind of work?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, doing the same kind of work.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Covering territory?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, they were with a top house. I didn’t stay with them
long and I wasn’t making any money with them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What company was that?
Mr. SENATOR. Junior Age. I don’t believe they are in business any more.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long would you say you were with them?
Mr. SENATOR. It may have been 3 months. I don’t know, 2 months, 4
months. I’m not sure. It wasn’t too long.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you on a straight commission with them?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. No, a draw against commission.
Mr. GRIFFIN. A draw against commission?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But if you didn’t make your draw, you were in the hole
with them and had to pay it back supposedly, somehow?
Mr. SENATOR. I didn’t pay it back, but I was in the hole, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But after you left this dress house, who did you work for
next?
Mr. SENATOR. I’m trying to think from the time there until Rhea. I know
I did some odd things. I was with Rhea——
Mr. HUBERT. Were these odd things always in the same line, or did you
get into other lines?
Mr. SENATOR. No. I worked in a little bare place, I think I lasted, I
worked there for about 6 weeks once at hardly nothing, just to keep me
going.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that in Dallas?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And that was before you worked for Rhea, or was it?
Mr. SENATOR. No. I think that was after. I think that was after I
worked for Rhea.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did the Rhea employment last?
Mr. SENATOR. I may have been with them maybe a year, year and a half,
I’m not sure now.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you make any money off of that?
Mr. SENATOR. Just a draw part.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you on the handout basis when you were working for
Rhea, that is to say, handout with your roommates, or did you have
enough money then to pay your fair share?