(The proceeding reconvened at 2:30 p.m.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me repeat the statement we have been making at the
beginning of every one of these sessions, that this is a continuation
of the deposition which was begun on Wednesday morning with Mr. Crafard
and, of course, you understand, Larry, that the oath which you took at
the beginning is still in effect for this deposition.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, before we proceed with the examination of further
documents, I might mention for the record that Mr. Crafard and I had
lunch this afternoon at Hogates Restaurant and we discussed informally
some of his experiences in Dallas and his impressions of the events
that have transpired since he first came to Dallas and since he left
Dallas, and I might—I am going to raise a few of the topics, and I hope
I cover them all. If I have left any of them out, I wish, Larry, that
you would clarify the record on it.
I ask you, first of all, if we had a conversation about the homosexual
relationship that you had mentioned before of Jack Ruby and George
Senator?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And did I ask you whether you felt that Jack and George
were involved in a homosexual relationship between themselves?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your view of their relationship?
Mr. CRAFARD. My personal opinion is the fact that there was no
relationship between the two due to the fact, mostly because of the
fact that they did not show the general affection towards each other
that two men in this type of relationship would tend to show.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any questions you would like to ask on that
topic, Mr. Hubert?
Mr. HUBERT. Yesterday, you gave us the opinion that you thought both
Ruby and Senator were possibly homosexuals.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I did.
Mr. HUBERT. But your point now is that they might be, but that you
didn’t perceive anything that would indicate that they practiced
homosexuality between themselves?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. There was, to my opinion, they were
both—appeared to me to have a homosexual tendency of sorts, but showed
no—but it showed no signs that there was a relationship between the two
of them in this way.
Mr. HUBERT. All right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I think we also discussed whether or not you believed that
Jack Ruby was capable of engaging in activities which he would keep
secret from other people.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you tell us now what your view is about his ability,
whether he is the kind of person that could have engaged in that
activity?
Mr. CRAFARD. From what I knew of his background and what I know of him,
I would say definitely that he is the type of person that could engage
in an activity of any type without anyone else having any knowledge of
it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert, do you want to ask any questions on that?
Mr. HUBERT. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. We also discussed at lunch whether or not there—you have
any recollection of any connection between Ruby and Oswald, and you
mentioned to me a statement that you heard made at one time.
Would you tell us what that was?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that was the one I made just as we got out of
the car.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is right.
Mr. CRAFARD. If I recall the words, I said, I told you that I believe
that before I left Dallas I had heard someone state that Oswald had
been in the Carousel Club on at least one previous occasion, that I
wasn’t positive who had made the statement, that I believed that it was
made before I left Dallas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you indicate to me you had some idea?
Mr. CRAFARD. I thought it had been Andrew.
Mr. GRIFFIN. By that, you mean Andy Armstrong?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You say before you left Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What do you mean, before you left Dallas the last time?
Mr. CRAFARD. Before I left Dallas after the assassination.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean before you left Dallas on November 23?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. It seems to me that something had been said about
Oswald being in the club, and I figured that probably it had been
Andrew who said this because I had talked to him—been with him—more
than I had been with anybody else on that day.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you seen Andrew since?
Mr. CRAFARD. Only at the Ruby trial in Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you mention it to him, then?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I hadn’t even thought about it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he talk to you about it then?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, this statement must have been made to you
between 12:30 on the 22d and about really 5 or 6 o’clock in the
afternoon of the 23d.
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t see Andy after that, did you?
Mr. CRAFARD. I only saw Andy—I never saw Andy after the 22d, when
President Kennedy was assassinated.
Mr. HUBERT. That is right. Andy woke you up, you all looked at TV, and
then Jack came in and they all went off and you went to bed.
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Of course, you got up the next morning and talked to Ruby.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. It wasn’t Ruby who said that, was it?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe so.
Mr. HUBERT. It wasn’t George Senator who said it?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see anybody else?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to anybody else other than that girl on the
phone?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. She didn’t mention it to you?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Who else could it be but Andy Armstrong?
Mr. CRAFARD. I said I believe I heard this statement had been made
before I left Dallas, I am not positive that it was made before I left
Dallas, I might have heard the statement afterwards, after I left
Dallas or after I went back, but I believe I heard the statement before
I left Dallas on the 23d.
Mr. HUBERT. If you did hear it before you left Dallas, it had to be
Armstrong; isn’t that right?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. There is no question about that?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Because you didn’t speak to anybody else that you could
have gotten it from?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you think it is possible that you read it in the paper?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t believe so. I didn’t read the papers on it too
much. I had a couple of the papers——
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think you got it over the radio or TV or any other
news media?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Your thought is that you got the statement that Ruby—that
Oswald had been in the Carousel Club from a person?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, if it was after you left Dallas, can you help us as to
what person that might have been?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I cannot.
Mr. HUBERT. Would it have been any of your relatives?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Would it have been anybody you worked with?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t believe so. If it had been after I left Dallas
it would have been somebody who picked me up when I was hitchhiking.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicated to me, Larry, I think in the car, that
Sunday you watched television someplace, that you may have seen this on
television Sunday.
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I didn’t see television Sunday, I was on the road all
the time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn’t stop in any restaurants or bars and watch
television along the way?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I watched television the day of the assassination and
saw him on the morning after.
Mr. HUBERT. On Monday?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; the morning after the assassination, Saturday.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. On Saturday between the time that you talked with Ruby,
when you called him at his home——
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And the time that you left Dallas, did you see anybody
other than the man at the garage with whom you left the key?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not to talk to anybody; no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you rode out of Dallas with that man whom
you had met at the State Fair, did you talk with him about the
assassination?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe we discussed it very much. He was telling
me about his place out on the lake more than anything else, so far as I
recall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he know you had worked for Jack Ruby?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe there was something said about the fact that I
worked for Ruby.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did this man know Jack Ruby?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it possible that he would have mentioned having seen
Oswald at the Carousel?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t believe so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had he ever been in the Carousel?
Mr. CRAFARD. To my knowledge, no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, on Saturday—or on Friday, rather, the day of the
assassination, did you and Andy and Jack Ruby watch television at the
Carousel?
Mr. CRAFARD. Some, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember seeing Oswald’s picture on television on
Friday?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember it, no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember watching television or listening to the
radio when it was announced that Oswald had been apprehended and was
the suspect?
Mr. CRAFARD. Let’s see. I believe we heard that over the television.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any recollection of who was present when you
heard that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Larry, do you have a recollection on Friday of your
activities from the time Andy woke you up until Jack left to go to
Eva Grant’s house? Can you reconstruct for us your activities in some
detail?
Mr. CRAFARD. Just a vague outline is all I can do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Try to reconstruct this as best you can, what you did
first, how long you watched television, and so forth.
Mr. CRAFARD. I had the television on the rest of the day up until
about—it must have been about 7 or 7:30 when I turned the television
off.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was the television set located?
Mr. CRAFARD. In Jack’s office.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How big an office did he have?
Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, about 10 by 10 or 10 by 12.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have chairs in there?
Mr. CRAFARD. He had a couch, a desk, and a chair in front of his desk.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you spend a good bit of the day in that office
watching television?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. After you got up, when did you first go into
that office and start to watch television?
Mr. CRAFARD. Almost immediately.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And how long did you stay in there?
Mr. CRAFARD. We turned the television on and there was nothing on the
television just right at that time, on the channel we had it on. We
switched channels, while the set was warming up we went out front and
listened to Andy’s radio until the television warmed up, and then we
watched television.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack Ruby wasn’t there at that time?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You say you stood in front of the television?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, we stood and watched the television.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it possible to sit in Jack’s office and watch
television?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you stand there?
Mr. CRAFARD. Just a couple of minutes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you sit, and where was the television set?
Mr. CRAFARD. We sat on the couch and the set was in the corner behind
the door. There was a filing cabinet between it and the wall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And sitting on the couch you could watch the television
set?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have to close the door in order to watch the
television set?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there a telephone in that office?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How far away, how many extensions were there to the
telephone?
Mr. CRAFARD. There was three of them altogether.