Mr. HUBERT. That was the thing that gave you concern and that is what
you talked to your sister about?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; it kind of bothered me a little bit.
Mr. HUBERT. Couldn’t you have ended the bother by going to the nearest
police force?
Mr. CRAFARD. I probably could have. I never even thought about going in
like that, just walking in and talking to them, asking them about it or
anything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you fear when you left Dallas that things might be
happening which would get you in trouble?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; it never entered my mind. I figured that that would be
the end of things when they had caught Oswald, I kind of figured that
would be the end of it and he would come to trial.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you fear that things might be happening which would
get Jack or other people you knew in trouble?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I didn’t.
Mr. HUBERT. Let’s put it point blank to you, Larry. Did you think that
possibly Ruby or someone among his friends might have had something to
do with this and the best thing for you to do as an innocent person was
to get out of there?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I didn’t, because if I had had the slightest idea
that him or anybody he knew had anything to do with it, the first thing
I would have done would have been to walk right straight down to the
police station.
Mr. HUBERT. Then when you found out that he had killed Oswald,
didn’t it occur to you that he might be killing Oswald to remove the
President’s murderer?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe it really did occur to me at that time; no.
Mr. HUBERT. You see the point now, don’t you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I understand what you are trying to say. But later we
discussed the fact that Oswald and Ruby might have been connected, as I
believe everybody else has.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think there is anything, can you think of anything
as a result of what you saw down there in Dallas that would indicate
that Jack shot Oswald out of some kind of fear?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I can’t really think of anything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Out of some motive of self-preservation other than, or not
necessarily connected with the shooting of the President, but that he
would have feared Oswald in any kind of a way?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I can’t think of anything that would prove that, that
would give me any reason to believe that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have some idea on the basis of your experience with
Jack and so forth as to why he shot Oswald?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I haven’t, other than the fact that I believed ever
since it happened that Jack was out of his mind. I believe right today
that the man should be in a mental institution.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that simply because you can’t conceive of anybody doing
what he did, or from some other facts?
Mr. CRAFARD. I can’t conceive of a man that is in his right mind
walking up to a man, just walking up to a man, putting a gun in his
belly and pulling the trigger.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In a police station?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right, I can’t conceive of it, of any man that is
in his right mind doing so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But, other than that, is there any indication that you had
that Jack wasn’t in his right mind?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you saw him for a period of about maybe 18 hours
after the President was shot. In that period that you saw him after the
President was shot, is there anything that indicated to you that he
wasn’t in his right mind in the way that, you know, his behavior was
markedly different?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. From the way Jack Ruby usually acted?
Mr. CRAFARD. One thing he was kind of, when he would speak it was kind
of a choppy way of speaking. He would say two or three words, wait and
then say two or three more, which wasn’t usual for Jack. He might bust
off in the middle of a sentence and then pause for a couple of seconds
before he completed the sentence.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this what you were referring to when you talked about
Jack being nervous?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; very much that way.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it the kind of nervousness that a man might have if he
were afraid himself?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir; that is possible, a man that was afraid for
himself would be nervous like this; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You observed those conditions prior to the time you left?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. This nervous condition?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; on the night when we went out and took those pictures
he was pretty well that way, he would talk in a burst and he would stop
and then talk in a burst again.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, Larry, isn’t it a fact that the reason why you left
was because you didn’t want to have any part of what you saw going on
then?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t understand what you mean by that.
Mr. HUBERT. You saw Jack being nervous. You saw him taking all these
pictures. You saw his great concern about the death of the President.
Didn’t it occur to you, and isn’t it a fact that the reason you had
left was because you figured that you didn’t want to have any part of
anything that was going on, although you didn’t know what was going on?
Isn’t that a fact?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. I cannot say that it is, because I had no idea there
was anything going on, period.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything about Jack that indicated to you a
peculiar concern about the death of the President, that the death of
the President itself was some sort of a concern, a great concern to him
more than it seemed to be to you or to Andy or anybody else?
Mr. CRAFARD. It seemed to me more like it was more of a personal effect
on him than it did on anybody else that I talked to very much.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you mean by that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I can’t really explain it. To me, I was shocked and
everything, but it wasn’t like it had been a member, more or less, say,
a member of my own family. With him, it hit him more like it had been a
member of his own family, it seemed to.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There was something he said in that connection?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think he said something, but I don’t recall what he said.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this: Were you present when Jack learned
that Officer Tippit had been shot?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so. I’m not sure. I think Jack was at the club
or come to the club just shortly afterward.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember Jack’s talking about Officer Tippit?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I think he said he knew him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack talk a lot about the death of the President?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe any more than anybody else did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Officer Tippit? Did he talk about that?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t recall as he said much about it other than the
fact that he said he knew him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicated yesterday that you felt Jack’s concern
over the death of the President was related to his concern for the
convention business in Dallas. You remarked about his saying this is
going to ruin the convention business.
Mr. CRAFARD. Something to that effect. That was one of the first things
he said, but that was the only time he referred to it that I can recall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. As you look at his activities, do you think that his
concern or what had happened down in Dallas, meaning the death of the
President and perhaps even the death of Officer Tippit, that Jack’s
concern might have been more related to his fear about what would be
happening to his business rather than any sympathy and grief over the
man himself?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I can’t say that he did. I mean it seems to me like if
a man was really concerned about his business he wouldn’t have closed
Friday night like he did. It seems to me like something like that—you
know what I mean?
Mr. GRIFFIN. But, again, that is an impression you are drawing from
some sort of outside event?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am asking you to look at just what Jack was talking
about and the things that he seemed to be concerned with and occupied
with after the death of the President.
Were they things, was his conversation mostly about the President, or
was it mostly about the things that he had to do in Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was mostly about the President, as near as I
can recall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you talk with him at the Carousel about the
President?
Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, while he was there the first time we was talking about
it. I’m trying to recall there was something said there when he said
something about he was going to be closed, that we was going to be
closed that night. He seemed to think if we closed and the other clubs
stayed open it might help a little bit, help the club a little bit, or
something.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So that in Jack’s mind closing was an aid to his business?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Larry, when you decided to go, to leave Dallas, I take it
that you packed up all your belongings because you didn’t expect to
come back.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you told us you had two little cases?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you search around to see that you had done all that
needed to be done?
Mr. CRAFARD. I knew I had everything that I wanted to take with me. I
left a couple old shirts and a pair of old pants, I believe, that I
left there.
Mr. HUBERT. And you left the book?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What about that letter that you had written to Gale?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t even recall a letter that I had wrote to her that
I had left there.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know that there was a letter there with your aunt’s
address on it?
Mr. CRAFARD. I had received a letter, but I believe I had threw the
envelope into the waste basket or something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. How long before you left had you received that letter?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think it had been probably about a week, I’m not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. Did it stay in the wastebasket all that time?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think I had it lay on my desk, on the table there, for a
couple days, 3 or 4 days, or something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. And then threw it in the wastepaper basket?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; the wastebasket wouldn’t have gotten empty until I
emptied it, and I wouldn’t have emptied it until it was full.
Mr. HUBERT. Did anyone else know about your aunt, her address in
Harrison?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe Jack and Andy both knew that I had received a
letter from my cousin.
Mr. HUBERT. Your aunt and cousin? Well, it is Gail?
Mr. CRAFARD. Gail, Miss Eaton.
Mr. HUBERT. How did they know that? How do you remember that they knew
that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, the fact, the reason I remember it, there was some
mail in on Jack’s desk for one of the guys and he told me to bring it
out by the cash register on the front desk and give it to them when I
went in, and when I went and got it there was this letter addressed to
me. I said something to Jack because he hadn’t give it to me and he
said he didn’t know that was my name, and Andy was there when I said
something.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you any reason to believe that he or Andy made a
record of your aunt’s address?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. When you left, then, so far as you knew, no one was aware
of your aunt’s address or of Gail Eaton’s address?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. You had forgotten that the envelope was in the wastepaper
basket?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I had said something to one of the waitresses about
my cousin in Michigan, about where she had lived in Michigan, that she
lived in Harrison.
Mr. HUBERT. Which one of the waitresses did you say that to?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe there was two of them there at the time. I think
it was Bonnie and Little Marg, Marjory.
Mr. HUBERT. You had told them that you had a cousin called Gail?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And that she lived in Harrison?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How close a cousin was that to you, a first cousin?
Mr. CRAFARD. A first cousin.
Mr. HUBERT. Was there any sort of affection between you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; there was.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you told that to the girls?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I said something to them about the fact.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Gail when you stopped with your aunt?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, she knew you worked for Ruby at a Carousel Club?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. When you got to see her, the news was out that Ruby had
killed Oswald?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you speak to her about your connection with Ruby?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe we discussed it; yes. I know we talked about it.
I told her about what I had done for Jack, what kind of work I had done
with him.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell her when you left?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell her or them—by them I mean your aunt and
uncle—the circumstances under which you had left?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know for sure if I did or not, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You must have told them that you left prior to Oswald’s
being shot.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I told them that I had left Saturday, about noon
Saturday.
Mr. HUBERT. Did they seem to express any concern about the matter?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you come to form in your own mind some concern about
the matter?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not other than the fact that I figured that I did say if I
heard anything in the news about looking for an employee of Ruby’s that
had left, I would go to the law officers and let them know who I was
and that I had been working for Ruby.
Mr. HUBERT. But, as I understand it, then, the only one that really
discussed with you the position or the suspicion that you might be
under was your sister, and that neither your aunt nor your uncle nor
your cousin, Gail, nor your other cousin, Cliff Roberts, and his wife,
expressed any concern or discussed the matter with you at all?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can recall where there was anything said about
that I might be suspected of anything.
Mr. HUBERT. The only one you really talked to about that was your
sister?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You got to see her, I think, the night before the FBI came,
didn’t you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. So that you really hadn’t had an opportunity to listen to
any radios or newspapers or to see whether anyone was looking for one
of Jack’s employees who had left suddenly?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not too much; no.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you had any?
Mr. CRAFARD. Just in the cars, when I was riding in the cars if they
had the radio on and the news was on I could hear whatever come over
the news that way.
Mr. HUBERT. That concern, then, that resolution of yours that if you
heard about that you would turn yourself in to the police was formed
much earlier than when you got to see your sister?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. It was formed when?
Mr. CRAFARD. Shortly after I heard, found out that Ruby had shot
Oswald. I decided the fact if I heard anything in the news about
that—that they was hunting for one of Ruby’s employees—I would have
gone to the nearest law officers and told them that I had been an
employee of Ruby’s.
Mr. HUBERT. I guess we had better break for lunch.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
(Whereupon, at 12:50 p.m., the proceeding was recessed.)