Mr. CRAFARD. Place for guys on the road to stay.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you manage for money on your trip from up north to
Dallas, and Dallas on down west, and then again north to Washington?
Mr. CRAFARD. I had some money when I left Dallas, when I left Clare.
Mr. HUBERT. How much did you have.
Mr. CRAFARD. $40, $50, something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you work at anytime after you left Clare?
Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, no; I didn’t work after I left Clare.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t earn any money during that period?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. I haven’t worked since about the 18th of February, I
think it is, at a job.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who else did you see in Dallas beside the lawyers, Andy
Armstrong, and the Ruby family?
Mr. CRAFARD. I saw the people around the mission, and I say, I did work
1 day in Dallas, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Where, and how much did you make?
Mr. CRAFARD. I made about $7; I think I got about $7 out of it. It was
out of the labor pool.
Mr. HUBERT. How much money did you have when you got to Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. I was just about broke when I got into Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you manage to live?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is why I said I stayed at the mission.
Mt. Hubert. It still required money for food.
Mr. CRAFARD. It is a place where they feed you and they give you a
place to sleep.
Mr. HUBERT. Did anybody in Dallas give you any money?
Mr. CRAFARD. After I had appeared, after I had appeared on the witness
stand, Eva Grant gave me, her and her brother all together, I think
gave me $8.
Mr. HUBERT. $8?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right; all total.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the purpose of that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Money to eat on.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ask them or they asked you?
Mr. CRAFARD. They asked me how I was living, and I told them, and
I told them--they give me money to eat on, and I spent Monday,
Tuesday--Sunday, I think Sunday, Monday and Tuesday night that I slept
in the Carousel Club. They gave me the key to the club so I could stay
there.
Mr. HUBERT. Who did; Eva?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was the club in operation at that time?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. That was after you testified?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had it been changed from the time you had seen it before?
Mr. CRAFARD. There had been no redecoration or anything. I don’t think
they called it the Carousel. There was a Club de Copa or something,
they had run it a little while, and then they revoked her liquor
license.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But the interior of the club, did you notice any changes?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was the safe still there?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Where was Andy; was he still there?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; Andy was working some place else; I have no idea where.
Mr. HUBERT. When you left, did you return the key to her?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Ralph Paul or George Senator while you were
there?
Mr. CRAFARD. I saw George Senator at the courthouse, that was all.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t see Ralph Paul or talk to him?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember seeing him. I know I never talked to him,
and I don’t remember seeing him.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to any of the strippers or the waitresses who
used to be there?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Think hard now. Was there anybody else that you talked to
in Dallas outside of the people you saw in connection with the Ruby
trial?
Mr. CRAFARD. These people that I saw around the mission there I talked
to is all, and the police department. I asked them to put a tracer on
my wife.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Mr. Case?
Air. Crafard. Case?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Bob Case.
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You just arrived in Dallas from Oregon, I think when you
were served with these papers to come here?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I had been home for a little while.
Mr. HUBERT. How long?
Mr. CRAFARD. I had arrived there, I had been there, let’s see, I got
in Monday--it would have been 2 weeks this last Monday that I had been
home. I spent my time looking for a job since I have been home.
Mr. HUBERT. You haven’t found any yet?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever been in trouble in your life in the sense of
being charged with any offense?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; sir, I have got two times that I have been picked up,
picked up on a vag charge.
Mr. HUBERT. What?
Mr. CRAFARD. Vagrancy charge; Findlay, Ohio, and drunk in a public
street in Dallas, Oreg. That is the only two times I have ever been
charged.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you actually prosecuted on those two cases?
Mr. CRAFARD. I paid a fine on the drunk on public street, and the other
one I was just--I spent 72 hours in the jail and was let go.
Mr. HUBERT. The police have not reported to you on the tracer on your
wife?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When was your wife last known to you to be in Dallas, Tex.?
Mr. CRAFARD. I didn’t know she was in Dallas. I had an idea she was
around the Dallas area somewhere.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you left Dallas on November 23, did you have an idea
that your wife was around the area at that time?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you come to believe that she was around the area?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, I had wrote to my folks asking them for information,
if she had been in touch with them, if they knew where she was, and I
had a cousin who had been back out west and visited my folks and they
told me, they was telling me, they had gotten a letter from this woman
in Cuba, Mo., where my wife had been, so when I left Michigan, I went
to Cuba, Mo., and I talked to the woman there and, as far as she knew,
my wife had went back to the Dallas area, the last she knew of her.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long had that been?
Mr. CRAFARD. It had been, this was Christmastime.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is when the woman in Cuba, Mo., had seen her?
Mr. CRAFARD. That was the last time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were the children still with the woman in Cuba, Mo.
Mr. CRAFARD. No; the children was with my wife; she had the children.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you didn’t contact her brother?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I tried to, but I couldn’t find out. Didn’t know where
he was living or had no way of getting in touch with him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had he moved from the last time?
Mr. CRAFARD. The last I knew where he was at he was working on a ranch,
and I never could get ahold of the ranch. Nobody had ever heard of it
out around Carrollton, and nobody had ever heard of the place. I knew
he was there because I had been out there with him when he got the job,
but I didn’t have any transportation, so I had no way of going out
there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, you thought she was in the Dallas area. Where
specifically in the Dallas area did you have in mind?
Mr. CRAFARD. There is a little place about 30 miles out of Dallas
called, I think, Greenfield, or something like that, that I was told
she was around. She had got a letter from her in that area in February.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who had?
Mr. CRAFARD. This daughter of this woman in Missouri.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And did the woman, did she, show you the letter?
Mr. CRAFARD. She couldn’t find the letter, she couldn’t locate it. She
put it up in some of her stuff and couldn’t locate the letter at that
time.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you check out around Greenville for her?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I didn’t get out to Greenville.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you contact the Greenville police?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell the Dallas tracer people?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That the last you had heard she was in Greenville?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn’t know until you arrived at Cuba, Mo., that your
wife might be in Dallas, did you?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So when you left Michigan on your way to Dallas you really
didn’t have any idea that your wife would be in Dallas. You expected
she might be in Cuba, Mo.
Mr. CRAFARD. When I left Michigan my destination was Cuba, Mo., as far
as I knew. As far as I knew, my wife was in Cuba, Mo., or around there
some place close.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you left Cuba, Mo., the only information you had
about your wife was that she was somewhere near, might be somewhere in
the vicinity of Greenville, Tex.?
Mr. CRAFARD. Around the Dallas area is what--she had got this letter
from Greenville, and she was in the vicinity, as far as they knew, in
the Greenville area of Dallas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The letter was not written by your wife?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; it had been written by my wife to this daughter of
this woman in Cuba, Mo.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What were you told the letter said?
Mr. CRAFARD. Just, she just said, she didn’t say anything about what
the letter said. She just said it had been wrote from Greenville, and
that this girl had wrote back to my wife, and the letter had come back,
nobody at that address, no forwarding address.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What direction is Greenville from Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is out sort of the northeast of Dallas, about 35
miles.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What route is that on?
Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure. I don’t think it is on a main route. It is,
I think, on a smaller highway.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you ever heard of this place Greenville, Tex., before?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I knew approximately where it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How had you happened to hear of it?
Mr. CRAFARD. When my wife and I were in Dallas, I had worked for this
outfit that built these portable buildings and they built some over in
that area.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know of any friends your wife had in Greenville?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This letter that the woman in Cuba, Mo., received, did it
give any indication of how your wife was supporting herself or what her
connection was with the party that she was staying with?
Mr. CRAFARD. To my knowledge, it didn’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The woman in Cuba, how did she happen to be friendly with
your wife?
Mr. CRAFARD. My wife was on the road hitchhiking when she picked her up
with the boys. Her and her husband picked my wife up with the boys.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that?
Mr. CRAFARD. That was about 6 months--it would have been in the middle
of the summer last year.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I mean, did your wife keep in contact with this woman from
time to time?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. She left, the wife, the children with this woman for
a while, and she was getting a child-support check for her oldest son,
my stepson, and she turned the check over to the woman in Missouri.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did the woman come to know about your mother in
Dallas, Oreg.?
Mr. CRAFARD. I guess my wife said something about it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, had the woman in Cuba, Mo., written your mother to
tell your mother that your wife had left, or something, or what was the
occasion for that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe she wrote trying to find out what kind of a
person my wife was more than anything. I believe that was her main
reason for writing my mother. From the information I got from her, when
my wife would come back, my wife would be gone 2 to 3 weeks, she would
come back at least once a month with the check, to sign the check and
turn it over to the woman, and she said when my wife did come back she
apparently did appear to have quite a bit of money, and always had new
clothes and real good clothes, but she said she appeared--she did not
appear to have a job of any kind, because of the fact she would come
back maybe on a weekend or maybe it would be in the middle of the week.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the name of this woman in Cuba, Mo.?
Mr. CRAFARD. I can’t even remember right now. I have got it wrote down
in that little book, but I can’t even remember right now.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When was it that the lady in Cuba last saw your wife?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was Christmas Day.
Mr. HUBERT. Cuba, Mo.?
Mr. GRIFFIN. She saw her Christmastime?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. My wife come back and got the children on Christmas
Day.
Mr. GRIFFIN. She also got a letter from her about that time?
Mr. CRAFARD. The letter was received after that, I understand.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When the woman in Cuba, Mo., saw your wife at
Christmastime, did your wife say where she was going?
Mr. CRAFARD. As far as the woman knew, she was going to Texas.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know a girl by the name of Gloria that was with
Ruby on November 20?
Mr. CRAFARD. I couldn’t give you any particular dates, but I know a
girl Gloria that he took out, that he went out with a couple of times.
Mr. HUBERT. Is she the same girl as you have identified in this exhibit
which has been marked----
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. 5200-A, -B, -C, -D, and -E?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. That is Gloria McDonald?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The last name is McDonald.
Mr. CRAFARD. I didn’t know what her last name was, I couldn’t say, but
her first name was Gloria.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did she live?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was either Oak Lawn, the Oak Lawn area, or the Oak
Ridge area, I am not sure which.
Mr. HUBERT. Did she live alone or with someone?
Mr. CRAFARD. As far as I knew, she was living alone.
Mr. HUBERT. Let me ask when you say something like that, do you mean
you don’t know or you have some reason to believe she was living alone?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know, I will put it that way.
Mr. HUBERT. You really don’t know?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Because the way you put it, you see, you infer she is
living alone, and if you really have no knowledge about it then you
don’t know.
Mr. CRAFARD. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. She was the girl that you had breakfast with one morning at
the Lucas B&B; isn’t that correct?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When, how long after you began to work for Jack Ruby, did
you become aware that Gloria was somebody whom he saw from time to time?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe Gloria come to the club in answer to an ad, I am
not sure. But I believe that is where, how, I met her, when she come to
the club in answer to one of the ads we put in the paper.
Mr. HUBERT. Along those lines now, is it your impression that Ruby
didn’t know this girl Gloria prior to the time she answered an ad?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is my impression, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember when she came in?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, I don’t.
Mr. HUBERT. But your thought is that Ruby did not know her prior to the
time that you went to work for Ruby?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is what I understood.
Mr. HUBERT. When we say Gloria we are talking about this girl with the
striped dress you have identified in Exhibits 5200-A, -B, -C, -D, and
-E; right?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many waitresses did Jack employ at any one time?
Mr. CRAFARD. Counting the cocktail girls, there were about six or seven
girls.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, of these six or seven girls did any of them--were any
of them employed at the Carousel Club at the entire time you were there?
Mr. CRAFARD. Most of them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many girls left his employ during the time you were
there?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe there was two or three left his employ, not
counting Jada, the stripper.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember which girls left his employ?
Mr. CRAFARD. One I was with quite often there, we had meals together.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was her name, again?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember her name. I believe there was one other
one there. I would like to change one thing. The name you mentioned,
the name of that girl, I never did remember the name, the name Gloria.
She worked as a cocktail girl for 2 or 3 nights, and she never made
anything at all, couldn’t make enough money to buy cigarettes with, and
she left.
Mr. HUBERT. The girl in Exhibit 5200-A, -B, -C, -D, and -E was Gloria,
wasn’t it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And she was there only 3 days?
Mr. CRAFARD. She worked for him for 2 or 3 nights, and then she left.
She couldn’t even make enough money to buy cigarettes.
Mr. HUBERT. But then she continued to see him on a social basis?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Where was she working, do you know?
Mr. CRAFARD. How is that?
Mr. HUBERT. After she left him where did she go to work?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether she went to work or you just don’t know
anything about her?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you any indication that Jack was supporting her in any
way?
Mr. CRAFARD. I have no idea.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When Jack placed these ads for waitresses, was it that he
needed help?
Mr. CRAFARD. He had to run a continuous ad for girls. I think mostly he
was wanting to get girls to start them as strippers.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And he would sort of start them out as waitresses first,
is that it, if they showed any prospects----
Mr. CRAFARD. He did with a couple of them, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the waitresses, did he have some requirements
for the waitresses as to their looks?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know. They were all fairly nice-looking girls, but
I wouldn’t say they were real beauties or anything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he provide them with uniforms?
Mr. CRAFARD. About a week or 2 weeks before President Kennedy was
assassinated, he bought uniforms for the girls. But prior to that they
hadn’t wore uniforms.
Mr. GRIFFIN. They had no uniforms?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But they did have a common style of dress?
Mr. CRAFARD. Most of them wore slacks and a blouse or a sweater.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to mark this “Washington, D.C., Exhibit 5201,
April 8, 1964, Deposition, C. L. Crafard,” and I will sign my name to
it.
(Photograph marked Crafard Exhibit No. 5201 for identification.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, Larry, I am going to show you what I have marked as
Exhibit 5201. You will notice the picture of a girl there, a brunette,
scantily clad. Is she wearing the uniform that you referred to that
Jack bought?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the girl in that photograph?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see anybody around the Carousel in an outfit
like that?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Does that appear to be a picture of the inside of the
Carousel Club?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not as I know it, no. We didn’t have all this back bar.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize anybody in that photograph, 5201?