Mr. CRAFARD. When I first met him.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any activity with his hands or walk or dress?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is it, the way a person walks or moves or uses his
hands, involve the appearance of this type of person which I have been
in contact with quite a few of them in the type of things I have been
doing.
Mr. HUBERT. So the overall impression that you had from his speech and
from his movement of hands and his walk gave you the impression that
he would fit into the category of people who in your experience were
homosexuals?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have occasion to change that view?
Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, at the same time I kind of liked him, and I never
really went as far as changing that opinion I never really changed it
although he had never made any overtures toward me.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him make any overtures toward any man?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not to my knowledge, not that I ever saw.
Mr. HUBERT. You heard about some, I suppose?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I didn’t. I never heard about any cases where he had.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear people express the view that he was homosexual?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not people that I met after I went to work for him. But
this friend of mine that met him the same night I did, him and I were
pretty well agreed on the subject that he seemed to be quite that type.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the name of that friend?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t even remember his name. He was a carnival worker,
he worked at the carnival.
Mr. HUBERT. It was not one of the owners?
Mr. CRAFARD. Just a worker.
Mr. HUBERT. And he was not homosexual himself?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; he was a pretty straight kid.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you square that off, that opinion of him, with the
fact that he was going out with a girl that you have identified in that
Exhibit 5200 A, B, C, D, and E?
Mr. CRAFARD. I have known several people of this type that were married
and had families.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you didn’t think that was inconsistent with
your former view, your earlier view?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; as far as being inconsistent with my knowledge of that
type of person it isn’t.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it fair to say that your original impression of Ruby
that he might be homosexual still persists to this day?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. Although he was a likable person and I
liked him, and I have got one opinion, I don’t care, I know for sure if
a man is that way if he leaves me alone I can get along fine with him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have any friends or acquaintances whom you also
thought were homosexuals?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; he did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Which would those people be?
Mr. CRAFARD. George Senator, for one. He was the only one of his
friends that I met that I really felt that way about.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you describe Senator so that we can understand why
you felt he was a homosexual?
Mr. CRAFARD. More or less from the way he talked more than anything.
It is kind of hard for me to explain it because I haven’t got the
education to use the words.
Mr. GRIFFIN. We don’t want it--we, the only reason we are taking it
this way is because we don’t want to put words in your mouth.
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, mostly because of the way he talked, his actions.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, when you went into Jack’s apartment, did you see
anything in that apartment which would lead you to think that he and
George were having homosexual relationships?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; just general bachelor apartment more than anything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you notice that one of the beds had been slept in and
the other hadn’t, for example?
Mr. CRAFARD. I only saw the bed in Jack’s room. The other bedroom the
door was closed.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Senator have feminine mannerisms?
Mr. CRAFARD. Mostly in his speech, at times. It wasn’t all the time but
at times he would have the mannerisms in his speech, the way he uses
his hands.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he giggling or what sort of manners?
Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, a lot about the way he laughed. He would get to
talking about different things and the way his voice would sound more
than anything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the topics that you heard Jack and Senator talk
about. Was there anything about the subjects of conversation that they
had which would indicate that they were homosexual or had some sort
of----
Mr. CRAFARD. No. The only thing I could say along that line was that
they was always together, they were together an awful lot.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Were you able to tell from their relationship
whether one of them was performing services for the other whether in
the maintenance of the household, for example, one of them was assuming
responsibilities or the other wasn’t or taking care of clothes or
things like that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, most of the cooking Jack done 90 percent, most of
the cooking that was done in the apartment to my knowledge was done by
Jack.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you know that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, on a couple of occasions Senator--Jack was billing
Senator out because he had cooked something that he shouldn’t have
cooked or something, that--and it was something he didn’t do very often
was cook. I can’t remember the name, what, everything what was said or
everything. But it was to the fact that he didn’t cook anything around
the place and when he did cook it, the few times he did cook he would
cook it wrong or something.
Mr. HUBERT. And you heard that from having heard Jack remonstrate with
him?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it fair to state that except for the specific examples
you have given here your impression of both these men, Ruby and Senator
concerning their homosexual tendencies, is based upon your experience
with other people of that same type.
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you any other specifics to mention?
Mr. CRAFARD. That would be about the only thing I could think of.
Mr. HUBERT. What would you say of Jack concerning his temper, and his
reaction to situations?
Mr. CRAFARD. He had an erratic temper.
Mr. HUBERT. What do you mean, give us examples, you know.
Mr. CRAFARD. You never knew something that you thought would blow him
up might not bother him, something that you thought would not bother
him a bit he would blow up about.
Mr. HUBERT. Like what? I mean that must be based upon something that
happened.
Mr. CRAFARD. Like Andy making a goof with regards to the girls were
supposed to work. They took nights off.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, tell us about that so we have it in the record.
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, the first time it happened Jack got pretty mad about
it. The next time it happened, one of the girls was supposed to be
there and didn’t show up, Jack never said a word.
Mr. HUBERT. When you say he got mad about it, how did he manifest his
anger?
Mr. CRAFARD. Raising his voice, shouting and calling Andy some “stupid.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack swear, use profanity?
Mr. CRAFARD. Very seldom. When he usually did it was usually “hell” or
“damn.”
Mr. HUBERT. Have you any other examples to give us that would throw
light upon his temper?
Mr. CRAFARD. One day, I was using a vacuum cleaner and it wouldn’t work
and something went wrong with it, something like that, the club has got
to be clean, you would think the man would be kind of perturbed about
it and he wasn’t the least bit bothered about it. I would be cleaning
the club and he would come in while I was cleaning the club, and he
would get pretty perturbed because I was working the vacuum cleaner
while he was there and he would yell at me and make me quit cleaning
until he had left.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you ever seen him in arguments with other people?
Mr. CRAFARD. A couple of times with, he got pretty perturbed at the
M.C.s, the one M.C. because of some of the jokes he was telling, some
of the stories.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about that, please, start off with the name of the
M.C., if you can.
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember the M.C.s name.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what period of time it was?
Mr. CRAFARD. Working for Jack when I went to work for him. He was
working for Jack.
Mr. HUBERT. How many M.C.s worked during that time?
Mr. CRAFARD. About three different M.C.s.
Mr. HUBERT. This was the one who was working when you first went to
work with it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about that?
Mr. CRAFARD. He had quite a habit of telling racial jokes and Jack
was pretty much against this and on several occasions he got pretty
perturbed with the M.C. for telling the racial jokes.
Mr. HUBERT. When you say pretty perturbed, you see that doesn’t tell us
about what he did.
Mr. CRAFARD. To the point where he went in among the chairs right by
the stage and was yelling at the M.C.
Mr. HUBERT. So that he could be heard all over the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. Very definitely.
Mr. HUBERT. And yelling, by yelling you mean that his voice was raised
above the normal?
Mr. CRAFARD. Very much so.
Mr. HUBERT. What was he saying?
Mr. CRAFARD. Telling him, you know, “I don’t like that kind of jokes in
here.” He said, stuff like that.
Mr. HUBERT. What kind of jokes were they?
Mr. CRAFARD. Racial jokes.
Mr. HUBERT. Well about what race?
Mr. CRAFARD. Colored people.
Mr. HUBERT. About the colored people?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; Jack was against a racial joke of any type, very much
so.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you find that out from him or just from this occasion?
Mr. CRAFARD. From these different occasions like that.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever tell you himself that he was?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; not personally, but from the way he acted on different
occasions like that that would happen he would chew the M.C. out pretty
good for telling the racial jokes and for some pretty vulgar jokes he
told, on occasions.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean he objected to vulgar jokes?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; he said that his objection was the club was no place
for that real vulgar type of joke.
Mr. HUBERT. By vulgar you mean a joke that dealt with sex?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; joke that would leave no doubt in a person’s mind
that it was a sexual joke. Some of them that he told were just that
type of joke.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean abnormal sex?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. So what he objected to were jokes that had to do with
abnormal sex, is that correct?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, there was, I think on one or two occasions there
was, the M.C. told jokes of an abnormal sex, but there was things that
were real vulgar jokes where he was cussing a lot or something in a
joke he didn’t care for too much. He don’t like the foul language used
in the club very much.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about--these comedians must have told sexual jokes,
didn’t they?
Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, yes; that is one of the things that put a comedian
over in that kind of a club; they are there to sell sex, and if they
don’t tell a sexual joke the comedian is nothing.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you distinguish for us between the kind of sexual
jokes that Jack would be upset about and those he accepted?