Mrs. CARLIN. No; it was winter.
Mr. HILBERT. It was winter?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes; it was getting cold.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you relate it--I think I have asked you this before,
but perhaps your memory is fresher now. Can you relate it to the time
of the death of the President?
Mrs. CARLIN. I would say 2 or 3 weeks before the death of the President.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember a rather large heavy fat man, very heavily
built, who used to come to the Carousel almost every weekend and used
to sit close by the stage and sort of carry on a banter with the
theatre?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who he is?
Mrs. CARLIN. No; I don’t know who he is. But I remember him. He weighed
about 300 pounds.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mrs. CARLIN. Used to beat on the stage and holler and scream. I don’t
remember--I don’t know his name. I never did meet him, but I remember
him.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know George Senator?
Mrs. CARLIN. Not by name. I probably would know his face, but I don’t
know his name.
Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know what his relationship was to Ruby?
Mrs. CARLIN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Then do you know--and I don’t mean from your own knowledge
at all, but from what you might have heard, what Jack’s relationship in
general with people of the opposite sex was? What his relationship with
girls was?
Mrs. CARLIN. No; I would rather not answer it.
Mr. HUBERT. That is all right. Mind you, I want it clear I was not
asking in relation to anything with respect to you yourself, but as to
what you have heard?
Mr. JACKSON. Did he ever make any advances towards you?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes; one time.
Mr. JACKSON. In other words, he did do that with the girls
occasionally--make advances toward them?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. JACKSON. Proposition them?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes; I knew of them going with him.
Mr. JACKSON. Dating them?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. JACKSON. He did date them some?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. JACKSON. Did you know or had you heard anything concerning the
possibility of any kind of homosexuality on the part of Jack?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. JACKSON. Is that just a rumor running out there, or what?
Mrs. CARLIN. That was from his mouth. He was always asking the
question, “Do you think I am a queer? Do you think I look like a queer?
Or have you ever known a queer to look like me?” Every time I saw him
he would ask it.
Mr. JACKSON. Do you mean he would bring up the subject himself?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes; he would say, “Do you think I look like one or act
like one?”
Mr. JACKSON. Did he say he was?
Mrs. CARLIN. No; he just asked me, “Do I look like one.”
Mr. JACKSON. But he never admitted to you of being one?
Mrs. CARLIN. No.
Mr. JACKSON. Or ever made any statements that indicated that he was a
homosexual?
Mrs. CARLIN. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. JACKSON. What you have told us here is all that you know about his
abnormality, if any?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you throw any light upon his character with respect to
whether he had a good temper or easygoing temper or quick temper?
Mrs. CARLIN. He was very quick tempered.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have occasion to observe that yourself?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Could you give us just one or two examples that would serve
to illustrate why you have the impression that he was quick tempered.
Mrs. CARLIN. Well, the time that makes me think he was so quick
tempered there was two times.
One was with Tammi True. Tammi had--Joy Dale had been out of work for
about a week. She had played sick, and this was known all over the
club, so Tammi True was supposed to be taking their act. And Joy Dale’s
act, making it hard on all of us. So Tammi went to Jack, and I was
sitting in the office when she said, “Jack, I am going to be 5 minutes
late for my show,” and Jack said, “Okay.” So she went to the back to
get dressed, and I went back right after that, and he came back--the
music started--he didn’t tell the band like he was supposed to, so the
music went ahead and started for Tammi to go on, and that upset her.
And Jack came back and said, “What the blank-blank * * *”
Mr. HUBERT. Used some obscene words?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. I take it you prefer not to use it yourself?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it obscene?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes; and she said, “Well, I had already told you that I
was going to be late and you were supposed to let the band know, and
you are blaming me.” And Jack said something else like, “Hurry up and
get your ass dressed.”
Mr. HUBERT. And there again you used an obscene term which I take it
you don’t care to use yourself, in reference to her?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes; and she then turned around and jumped on him and
said, “If you can let Joy Dale hold out a whole week and make all of
us suffer, you can damn sure wait on me.” And he said, “You are not
going to con me. You may con other people, but you are not going to
con me.” And he stormed out of the room. So the following show she was
deliberately late, and he came back and raised cane again, and he said
something about he was going to fire her if she didn’t straighten up,
that she thought she could use him, and that is about all that was
said. They kept fussing back and forth and calling each other names.
Mr. HUBERT. I take it from that that his manifestation of temper was
first in the use of obscenity, and second in a loud tone of voice?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes; screaming.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he manifest on that occasion or any occasion that he
might use physical force, or did he ever as a matter of fact?
Mrs. CARLIN. No; I never saw him raise his hand to hit anybody or
anything like that, although with Tammi, he did say he would throw her
down the stairs if she didn’t straighten up. And she said, “I don’t
have to leave. I have a contract.” And he said, “That contract don’t
mean a God damn thing.”
Mr. JACKSON. You don’t have to use those words.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you said that that was one example. Do you have any
others?
Mrs. CARLIN. With Joy Dale.
Mr. HUBERT. Could you tell us about that?
Mrs. CARLIN. It was about the same thing. She had came back to work and
was supposed to be pregnant and sick, and she was dying, so she came
in, she was late for her first show, and Jack didn’t say anything, and
all of us girls were mad and wouldn’t talk to her. So she did her first
show, and she was supposed to be hurting bad and she wanted to get out
of the second show, and just came back from the week after staying out,
and she went to Jack, and you could hear her plumb to the opposite
office.
There was a wall, and you could hear her there fussing and cussing
because she wanted to take off the second show. And he told her she
had been off a week and he couldn’t afford to pay her salary when she
wasn’t doing a job at all. And he said, “If you don’t like your job,
you know what you could do.”
Mr. HUBERT. Was that an indication that there might have been some
relationship between them other than business?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes. Well, I know it wasn’t hearsay. I know that they were
going together, and Joy was using this over his head.
Mr. JACKSON. How do you know this?
Mrs. CARLIN. She told me, and also Jack made indications that he was
going with her.
Mr. HUBERT. That she went to his apartment or he went to hers?
Mrs. CARLIN. Only what Joy would tell me, and Joy was a big liar. She
was known to lie about things that she had no reason to lie about.
She would lie about men making passes just to make the girls ask her
questions and be the center of attention, so I wouldn’t say she was
telling the truth when she said anything.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you ever met Jack’s sister, Eva Grant?
Mrs. CARLIN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You know of her?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You never met her?
Mrs. CARLIN. After the President’s killing, I did.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you come to meet her then?
Mrs. CARLIN. She was at the club and she was having an argument with
Ralph. I believe it was either Ralph or the other gray-haired guy. I
don’t know his name--about the club. That it was her club, she was
going to run it, and Ralph was saying he was left in charge of the
club, and as long as he was financing the club, she wasn’t going to run
it. And there was an argument between her and one of the girls about
the fact that she wasn’t going to work for Eva because she had tried to
work for Eva and it wouldn’t work.
Mr. HUBERT. Could you tell me something about the gray-haired man other
than the one you identified as Ralph Paul?
Mrs. CARLIN. This was a--I don’t know his name. He was in there quite a
bit after the President’s killing. He was in there almost every night.
He was supposed to be one of Jack’s closest friends or supposed to have
lived with Jack.
Mr. HUBERT. That wouldn’t have been Senator, would it?
Mrs. CARLIN. I don’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever hear that perhaps that man was one of his
brothers?
Mrs. CARLIN. No. It wasn’t one of his brothers.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember anything further about him?
Mrs. CARLIN. No; I don’t, because I never did talk to him but once, and
that was just about then. He was there a lot of times at the door. He
took all the cover charges after that. Either him or Ralph was taking
cover charges.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to be in authority?
Mrs. CARLIN. No; he didn’t have authority. He thought he did, but he
didn’t, because Ralph would tell him to do what was done.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you ever seen him at the Carousel prior to the time
that Oswald was shot?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes. Just two or three times. He was sitting down at a
table next to the cashier, where the cash register was. He was sitting
there with the guy that Joy Dale was going with. I don’t remember his
name, but it was a young boy. Tommy something.
Mr. HUBERT. That is the gray-haired man you saw sitting with a young
man called Tommy?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was Joy Dale’s boy friend?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes. They were supposed to get married.
Mr. HUBERT. And you saw them, this gray-haired man and Tommy, several
times together?
Mrs. CARLIN. About two or three times, I would say.
Mr. HUBERT. How long before the President’s death?
Mrs. CARLIN. Oh, I don’t know. I never did pay that much attention to
him.
Mr. HUBERT. Were they always together, those two?
Mrs. CARLIN. I wouldn’t say they were together. He just was sitting
there. I don’t know whether they left together or nothing, whether they
were friends or not.
Mr. HUBERT. But they were sitting at the same table?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You wouldn’t remember if the two or three times prior to
the President’s death that you saw them together were consecutive
nights or not, would you?
Mrs. CARLIN. No; I never did pay that much attention to either one of
them.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you think those two or three times, whatever they
were, that you saw Tommy and the gray-haired man together, would have
been within a week prior to the President’s death?
Mrs. CARLIN. I wouldn’t say, because I didn’t pay that much attention.
Mr. HUBERT. But in any case, the gray-haired man that you have been
referring to subsequently had really a job with the club? That is to
say----
Mrs. CARLIN. No; not at that time, he wasn’t.
Mr. HUBERT. I mean later. I said subsequently.
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. After Oswald was killed then this same gray-haired man had
a job collecting the cover charges at the front door?
Mrs. CARLIN. Whether he was paid for it or not, he was doing it.
Mr. HUBERT. And he seemed to be, so far as you could tell, under the
authority of Paul?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Ralph?
Mrs. CARLIN. Ralph.
Mr. HUBERT. Ralph Paul?
Mrs. CARLIN. Well, I don’t know anything about Ralph.
Mr. HUBERT. How old a man is Ralph? Are you feeling bad?
Mrs. CARLIN. No. He is about 40 or 45, I would say.
Mr. HUBERT. Ralph Paul is?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes; between 40 and 45. He is old. He is old to me.
Mr. JACKSON. I think that is the age of the interrogator.
Mrs. CARLIN. I am sorry, but he is old to me. Gray-haired and being so
fat.
Mr. JACKSON. The closer you get to it, the younger it is.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you seen Ruby since Oswald was shot?
Mrs. CARLIN. Only in court.
Mr. HUBERT. You testified in court?
Mrs. CARLIN. Two; I went to two different court hearings.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you testify twice or once?
Mrs. CARLIN. Twice.
Mr. HUBERT. Was the first one on the insanity hearing, I suppose?
Mrs. CARLIN. I don’t know what the hearing was on. I think it was on
the bond hearing. He was trying to get out on bond.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you testify at his actual trial in the latter part of
February and the first part of March?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Could you tell us what was the general nature of your
testimony there?
Mrs. CARLIN. The same thing that has been asked here.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you been interviewed by Mr. Belli prior?
Mrs. CARLIN. No; the only time I talked to Belli was on the bond
hearing.
Mr. HUBERT. But you haven’t talked to Jack Ruby since you talked to him
on the phone on Sunday the 24th?
Mrs. CARLIN. I can’t say the last time I talked to him.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Billy DeMar?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. He was one of the Emcee’s there?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Of course, you have heard the rumors that he is supposed to
have said that he had seen Oswald in the club prior to the shooting of
the President?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see pictures of Oswald afterward?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see anybody who looked like that man in the
Carousel?
Mrs. CARLIN. Well, just like I told the FBI, I have seen someone that
looked like him. Whether it was him or whether I have seen him, he
could favor anybody, you know. I have seen the face, something that
looked, someone that looked like him, and I am not going to say it was
in the club or where it was at, but I have seen someone that looked
like him.
Mr. HUBERT. Of course, you didn’t know Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs. CARLIN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. If you get tired, let me know, and we will stop. Let me ask
you some concluding questions and we will take a little recess and I
will gather my thoughts and see if we have anything more. Have you been
interviewed by any member of the Commission’s staff prior to today?
Mrs. CARLIN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Mrs. Carlin, I have in my hand a document consisting of two
pages which purport to be a copy of a report of an interview of you
by Special FBI Agents Peggs and Zimmerman on November 26, 1963, which
for the purpose of identification I am marking as follows: Fort Worth,
Texas, April 15, 1964, Exhibit 5318, Deposition of Karen B. Carlin. Do
you spell your name with a “K” or “C”?
Mrs. CARLIN. K-a-r-e-n C-a-r-l-i-n.
Mr. HUBERT. Your first name is spelled with a “K”, but your last name
is spelled with a “C”?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And I am signing my name below that, for the purpose of
identification. On the second page thereof, in the lower right-hand
corner I am placing my initials. Mrs. Carlin, I will ask you if you
have had an opportunity, with your attorney, Mr. Jackson, to read this
statement?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Is this statement a fair statement of the interview that
you had with the FBI agents?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mir. Hubert. Do you see anything in it, and I will ask your attorney to
assist you, since he helped you to read it and went over it, do you see
anything that needs to be changed, adjusted, or modified?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes; the part where it says, “Just for rent.”
Mr. HUBERT. You are referring to a sentence in the third paragraph
about the middle of that paragraph which reads as follows, to wit: “She
called Ruby again on Sunday, November 24, 1963, at 10 or 10:30 a.m., as
she needed money to pay her rent.” Now that is the sentence that you
are referring to, is that correct?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What comment do you wish to make about it?
Mrs. CARLIN. Well, I didn’t ask him for just money for the rent. It was
for groceries also.
Mr. HUBERT. You actually mentioned to him that it was for groceries as
well as for rent?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, do you have any other parts that you wish to
change?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes; the last sentence in the third paragraph.
Mr. HUBERT. Now you are speaking of the sentence which reads
as follows, to wit: “Karen used her Texas driver’s license as
identification.” What comments do you wish to make about that, Mrs.
Carlin?
Mrs. CARLIN. It was a California driver’s license.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, are there any other parts of that statement
which are incorrect or need modification?
Mr. JACKSON. The fourth paragraph, first sentence which reads as
follows: “At the time she talked with Ruby, Sunday morning, she asked
him if the club was going to be open Sunday night. He became upset
regarding this, then talked harshly to her, indicating that he did not
feel she was showing the proper respect toward the deceased President.”
Mr. HUBERT. What comment do you wish to make about that sentence?
Mrs. CARLIN. It was not Sunday that he said anything about the
President. It was Saturday night that he talked real harshly regarding
the President.
Mr. HUBERT. Do I understand you to say then that when you spoke to him
on Sunday morning, that the subject of the President was not mentioned
at all?
Mrs. CARLIN. That’s right. He just sounded preoccupied and upset.
Mr. JACKSON. That was on Sunday that he sounded preoccupied?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes; he sounded distant. In other words, I called him back
twice.
Mr. HUBERT. You called him back twice on Sunday?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes; I am talking about when he was talking to me. I would
say, “Jack, are you still there?” Or “Jack,” to get his attention back.
He seemed like he was busy.
Mr. HUBERT. I gather from that that when you would speak to him on the
phone, you didn’t get a response, so it gave you the impression that he
wasn’t there?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. So you would repeat your question?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Are there any other parts of this statement that you would
like to make any comments about?
Mrs. CARLIN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Do I understand that other than the corrections that have
been made, that this statement contains the truth, so far as you know
it?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything you think should be deleted from it?
Mrs. CARLIN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Now Mrs. Carlin, is there anything else you would like to
say about any aspect that we have been talking about, or any fact that
you might know that you have not heretofore stated to anyone?
Mrs. CARLIN. Nothing that I can think of.
Mr. JACKSON. Excuse me just a minute.
(Mr. Jackson and witness whisper to each other.)
Mr. HUBERT. May I see you a minute, Mr. Jackson?
(Mr. Jackson and Mr. Hubert confer off the record.)
Mr. HUBERT. One more question, Mrs. Carlin. Did anyone ask you or
suggest to you, directly or indirectly, that you make this call on
Sunday morning to Mr. Ruby, or is it that you made this call for the
purpose which you have already stated?
Mrs. CARLIN. The purpose of the call was for which I have already
stated.
Mr. HUBERT. No one suggested that you make it?
Mrs. CARLIN. Jack told me to call him the following day.
Mr. HUBERT. But other than Jack no one else did?
Mrs. CARLIN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, Ma’am, I think that is all.
Mrs. CARLIN. There is one thing I would like to clear up, what I said a
while ago. A while ago you asked me did Jack Ruby make a pass. It was
not a pass, it was just asking me. It was not kissing or anything like
that.
Mr. HUBERT. I don’t think I asked you that question. I think Mr.
Jackson did.
Mr. JACKSON. In other words, he just asked you for a date, is that
right?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. JACKSON. And you refused him?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. JACKSON. And that is the only time he ever made any advances toward
you whatsoever?
Mrs. CARLIN. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. Now we have the transportation to take Mrs. Carlin back if
she would like to go right away.
Mr. JACKSON. Do you want to go right now?
Mrs. CARLIN. I will wait until Bruce gets through.
Mr. HUBERT. If you want, you can sit right where you are.
Mrs. CARLIN. Okay.