Mr. HUBERT. Did you receive that letter more than 3 days ago?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now you need not stand, but would you raise your right hand
and I will swear you in. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you
are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
the truth, so help you God?
Mrs. CARLIN. I do.
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Jackson, it may be that you have not seen that, and if
you wish to have a moment to look it over----
Mr. JACKSON. Go ahead.
Mr. HUBERT. Let the record show Mr. Jackson indicates he doesn’t wish
to stop now.
What is your name, please, ma’am?
Mrs. CARLIN. Karen Lynn Carlin.
Mr. HUBERT. How old are you?
Mrs. CARLIN. Twenty.
Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live, Mrs. Carlin?
Mr. CARLIN. 1312 Fairmont.
Mr. HUBERT. At present I take it you are unoccupied?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know a man by the name of Jack Ruby?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes; I did.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you state for the record now, ma’am, how you came to
know him and how long you have known him, and so forth.
Mr. CARLIN. It was through my husband that I came to know him. I was
working at the Theatre Lounge as a stripper and I didn’t like the job
there nor the employers, so my husband had heard about the Carousel
Club through girls that worked there at the Theatre Lounge, so I went
over and talked to Mr. Ruby and in turn I went over and received a job
after talking to him.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember about when that was?
Mrs. CARLIN. September?
Mr. JACKSON. Answer on your own.
Mrs. CARLIN. I don’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it in 1963?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Let me put it this way. Perhaps we can arrive at it this
way. How long before the death of the President did you start to work
for Mr. Ruby?
Mrs. CARLIN. I don’t know. I would say about 2 months. I hadn’t been
there very long.
Mr. HUBERT. What sort of employment did you obtain with him?
Mrs. CARLIN. Stripper.
Mr. HUBERT. What was your compensation for the job? I mean, was it
salary?
Mrs. CARLIN. It was salary. Seven days a week. It was $120 a week.
Mr. HUBERT. A hundred and twenty dollars a week and a 7-day week?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. On what day of the week were you paid?
Mrs. CARLIN. On Saturdays.
Mr. HUBERT. Saturday nights?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Who paid you?
Mrs. CARLIN. Jack Ruby.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know a man by the name of Ralph Paul?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What was your understanding of his relation to Jack Ruby or
to the Carousel?
Mrs. CARLIN. Well, as I understood it, I met him in the office of
Jack Ruby, and he was supposed to be a friend from Chicago that had
known him, and he just introduced me as Ralph. And the only thing I
knew was that he was a friend of Jack Ruby’s. I didn’t know he had any
connection with the club at all.
Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know now?
Mrs. CARLIN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see this gentleman Ralph Paul only once?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes. Before the killing of the President, I only saw him
once. But after that, I saw him all the time. He came in all the time.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean he was actually operating the club after?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes, afterwards.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you find out then that he was the owner and operator of
a drive-in restaurant called the Bull Pen at Arlington?
Mrs. CARLIN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know that now?
Mrs. CARLIN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. But in any case, prior to the time when Oswald was shot,
you had met Paul only once, and you don’t know what his relationship
was?
Mrs. CARLIN. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. About this young man called Andrew Armstrong, do you recall
him?
Mrs. CARLIN. The colored man?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What was his function there?
Mrs. CARLIN. Well, he was supposed to be the janitor to clean up and do
little errands and to run the bar. Afterwards, it turned out that he
also had a part in running the club.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean after?
Mrs. CARLIN. After the President was killed.
Mr. HUBERT. You stayed on at the club until what date?
Mrs. CARLIN. It was December. I quit--no, I couldn’t say it was in
December. It was right before the first. It was a week before the first.
Mr. HUBERT. The first of the year?
Mrs. CARLIN. January; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Larry Crafard?
Mrs. CARLIN. Not by name; no.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember Larry?
Mrs. CARLIN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember a man that stayed there and slept on the
premises?
Mrs. CARLIN. No; I don’t know of anyone that did. Andrew was the only
one I knew that ever spent the night there, and that was just because
he would say so the next evening. He said, “I am tired.” Said, “I had
to stay here all night.”
Mr. HUBERT. I might add that this man Larry’s full name was Curtis
Laverne Crafard.
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes. That was a little young boy, the one that worked the
lights.
Mr. HUBERT. He stayed on the premises?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes. But he stayed next door most of the time. I know he
was sleeping there for a while, but Jack put a stop to it.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean Jack wouldn’t let him sleep in the club?
Mrs. CARLIN. Jack didn’t like him sleeping there, because there was too
many things gone.
Mr. HUBERT. Then he made him go next door?
Mrs. CARLIN. He went next door. I don’t know who was next door or what
it was next door, but he went next door.
Mr. HUBERT. But what you heard was that this man had, Crafard, Curtis
Laverne Crafard had been staying on the premises, but that Jack had put
a stop to it and made him move to some place next door, but you don’t
know which next door?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Who did you hear this from?
Mrs. CARLIN. It was from Larry. He was taking care of the dogs or
something.
Mr. HUBERT. He told you he had to move out?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Out of the premises altogether?
Mrs. CARLIN. No. He just said, “I am going to have to move. I can’t
stay here. I don’t know where I am going to get the money, but I am
going to have to move.”
Mr. HUBERT. That must have happened just before the assassination of
the President?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes. After that I didn’t see Larry no more.
Mr. HUBERT. So to your knowledge he never did actually move, but just
said he was going to have to move, and he informed you that Jack had
told him he would have to move?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. JACKSON. When you say move, you mean move out at night and not
sleep there?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That is what I meant, to move next door, I think is what
you meant?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now coming to the event of November 22, where were you? Do
you recall when you heard about the shooting of the President?
Mrs. CARLIN. At home.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you hear it, on TV?
Mrs. CARLIN. Television. No; I take that back. The first I heard was
when I got the telephone call.
Mr. HUBERT. Who did you receive a telephone call from?
Mrs. CARLIN. Andrew.
Mr. HUBERT. Armstrong?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What did he tell you, do you remember?
Mrs. CARLIN. He just said that the President had been shot and we
weren’t going to open, that we would open the next night, and I hung up.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, it would be closed on Friday, but open on
Saturday?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Anytime you want to interject any kind of comment, let me
know and I will stop. You did not speak to Ruby at that time?
Mrs. CARLIN. No. Andrew was calling from the club, he said, and just
wanted to let all the girls know that they needn’t come to work.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you stay then in Fort Worth that night?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you indicated that Andrew did not tell you that the
club would not be open Saturday?
Mrs. CARLIN. Saturday?
Mr. HUBERT. Saturday.
Mrs. CARLIN. He said that it would probably be open Saturday. He said
to call to make sure.
Mr. HUBERT. He asked you to call to make sure?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you call?
Mrs. CARLIN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Instead, you came in?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes. I tried to call. There wasn’t anybody there in the
evening, so I went ahead and got ready and went to work.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you come?
Mrs. CARLIN. Bus.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you come alone?
Mrs. CARLIN. No; I didn’t. I didn’t come by bus. I came with Tammi
True, another stripper. She had to come over and collect her salary.
She had been fired by Ruby, and she was coming over to get her salary,
so she brought my husband, and I went over to Dallas with her.
Mr. HUBERT. She had an automobile?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. She was living in Fort Worth?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. When had she been fired, do you know?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes. She had been fired Thursday night.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know why she was fired?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes. There was a question about salary.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you mean she thought she should get more?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you all park the automobile then?
Mrs. CARLIN. In the car lot next door.
Mr. HUBERT. Nichols’ car lot?
Mrs. CARLIN. I don’t know the name of it.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, what happened then?
Mrs. CARLIN. Then we got to the club and the doors were locked, and
there was no sign of anybody being in there, so we thought----
Mr. HUBERT. About what time was it?
Mrs. CARLIN. It was about 8:30.
Mr. HUBERT. Was there a sign up saying that the club would be closed?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes. They were closed, but it didn’t say when or how
long or when it would open or anything on it. We went upstairs to
the Carousel Club--I mean the Colony Club next door and waited a few
minutes hoping they would open up, thinking possibly it would be late,
and we would wait up there 30 or 40 minutes. And my husband checked
several times to see if they were open, and I said, “Tammy, if you are
broke,”--she knew how to get ahold of him, because she was broke. She
didn’t have any salary.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t have any money?
Mrs. CARLIN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. None whatsoever?
Mrs. CARLIN. We had a little change. I think 40 or 50 cents, change.
And Tammy said she didn’t want----
Mr. HUBERT. Between you and your husband?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes. And I asked Tammy how to get ahold of Jack and she
gave me his home phone, and that is when I tried to call Jack.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you reach him?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes; I reached him at home. He answered the telephone. And
I asked Jack if we were going to be open, and he got very angry and
was very short with me. He said, “Don’t you have any respect for the
President? Don’t you know the President is dead?” And I said, “Jack, I
am sorry. Andrew said that perhaps we would be open, and I don’t have
any money, and you know I am supposed to get paid.” And I wanted some
money on my pay to get back home. And he said, “I don’t know when I
will open. I don’t know if I will ever open back up.” And he was very
hateful. And he said something he had to come down to the club in about
an hour and for me to wait and he would see me then. And I hung up and
told my husband what had happened, and we waited and waited and he
didn’t show up. That is when my husband and I went down to the garage
and Tammi had to go see some friend there at the Theatre Lounge.
Mr. HUBERT. This first call that you made was not made from the garage?
Mrs. CARLIN. No. It was made from the Colony Club.
Mr. HUBERT. So then you went over to the garage?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the purpose of going there?
Mrs. CARLIN. Because we wouldn’t have any more money and we didn’t want
to sit up there.
Mr. HUBERT. So then did you call Mr. Ruby again?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you or your husband?
Mrs. CARLIN. My husband.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you present when your husband called?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear what your husband, at least, said on his end
of the line?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes; but I didn’t pay much attention. I was sitting in the
chair talking to the man that was in there, the man that worked at the
garage.
Mr. HUBERT. So you are not able to tell us really what happened on your
husband’s end of the line?
Mrs. CARLIN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. What happened after that?
Mrs. CARLIN. Well, my husband then handed the phone to me and called me
back to the phone so I got on the telephone and Jack said, “Tell the
man at the garage, put him on the phone,” and he said, “I will let you
have $5 to get back home.” And that was all that was said, and he gave
me $5, and I signed a receipt, and that was all.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to Jack about the rest of your salary?
Mrs. CARLIN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. How much in fact was due at that time?
Mrs. CARLIN. I don’t remember. I had drew some on my salary. I wouldn’t
say for sure, but I had drew some that week.
Mr. HUBERT. You were asking him not merely for $5, but all that was due
you, I take it?
Mrs. CARLIN. No; I was just asking him for an advance.
Mr. HUBERT. Oh, I see.
Mrs. CARLIN. Because he had been nice to me and let me have an advance
before, so I just wanted an advance until he got the club back open.
Mr. HUBERT. Was your salary due at the end of the week or the beginning?
Mrs. CARLIN. At the end of the week.
Mr. HUBERT. Wasn’t your salary due that Saturday night?
Mrs. CARLIN. I think it was; yes. I think I got paid on Saturday. It
was either Saturday or Monday, I don’t remember, because I got my
salary on Monday twice.
Mr. JACKSON. Karen, could you have gotten paid on Sunday night?
Mrs. CARLIN. It could have been Sunday. It was either Saturday or
Sunday. I got paid twice on Monday.
Mr. JACKSON. On this particular night of November 23, on the telephone
when you talked to Jack and he said I will let you have $5 through the
garageman and, you signed the receipt, did you ask him for any given
amount of money or just for some money?
Mrs. CARLIN. Just enough money to get back home on, and I happened to
mention I would need money for rent tomorrow, and he said to call him.
Mr. JACKSON. Call him tomorrow?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes. He didn’t say what time.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, on the Saturday night you did mention to
him the question of getting not merely the $5, enough to get back, but
really a part of your salary, which would become due whenever pay day
was, whether it was Saturday night or Sunday or Monday night?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do I understand you that his remark was, “Well, I will let
you have $5 now and then call tomorrow?”
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he say that he would send you money the next day?
Mrs. CARLIN. No; he did--just said call him tomorrow and he would talk
about that tomorrow.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the call that he wanted you to make on
Sunday was with reference to your request for your pay?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. I gather that he was not disposed to talk about it then,
but invited you to call him the next day?
Mrs. CARLIN. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. And mentioned no time at all?
Mrs. CARLIN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, then, did you call him the next day?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes; I did.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, where did you call him from?
Mrs. CARLIN. From our home.
Mr. HUBERT. Where was that now?
Mrs. CARLIN. I don’t remember the address. Meadowbrook Drive.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Mr. Weldon Thompson--did you all have a phone listed in
your own name?
Mrs. CARLIN. Bruce Carlin.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it listed in your husband’s name?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That phone you used?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you called Jack?
Mrs. CARLIN. At home.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it a long distance call between Fort Worth and Dallas?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Charged to your phone, I take it?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what time you called him?
Mrs. CARLIN. It was 10. I think it was around 10 or 10:05 or 10:15,
something like that. It was between that time.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you be able to say with any degree of accuracy that
it could not have been earlier than 10?
Mrs. CARLIN. It could have been. I am not going to say for sure.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, the fact of the matter is, the phone records show--I
don’t have them before me, but the phone records show it was about that
time. Could you just tell us the gist of the conversation with Jack on
that occasion.
Mrs. CARLIN. Well, Jack answered the telephone. And I told him who it
was, and he said, “Yes, well,” and I said, “I have called, Jack, to try
to get some money, because the rent is due and I need some money for
groceries, and you told me to call.”
And he said, “How much will you need?” And I said--I’ll ask my husband,
and then I said about “$25.”
Mr. HUBERT. Your husband was in the room with you?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes. He was in the part of the front part of the house.
And he said, “Well, I have to go downtown anyway, so I will send it to
you by Western Union.” And he asked me what name to send it in, and I
told him, “Karen Bennett.”
Mr. HUBERT. Was it arranged to be sent to your home or what?
Mrs. CARLIN. No; to Western Union downtown.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you about what time to expect it?
Mrs. CARLIN. No. I asked him what time, about how long, and he didn’t
say.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean he didn’t say anything, or he said he didn’t know?
Mrs. CARLIN. He said, “Well,” he did say it would take a little while
to get dressed and something about the dog, I don’t remember what it
was. And he said, “I’ll go on down and send it to you.” And I said, “I
sure would appreciate it.” And that is about all there was.
Mr. HUBERT. Now was your rent in fact due?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Had your landlord been pressing you for the rent?
Mrs. CARLIN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Ruby seem to be annoyed that you were asking for money
on Sunday?
Mrs. CARLIN. No; he--not that Sunday, he didn’t seem to be annoyed.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think that there was a difference in his attitude
toward the money that you asked for on Sunday as opposed to the money
you asked for the night before?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes. He still seemed upset, you know, or hateful, short,
but he didn’t seem as much as he was Saturday night.
Mr. HUBERT. He definitely indicated to you that he would have to dress,
is that correct?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes. He said, “It will take me about 20 or 30 minutes to
get dressed, and then I will go on down.” And something that he had to
do with the dogs’ freedom, I think.
Mr. JACKSON. About the dogs?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes. He had some dogs. Kept them in the club.
Mr. HUBERT. Now when did you first hear about Oswald’s shooting?
Mrs. CARLIN. Well, I heard that right after I talked to Jack. It wasn’t
very long after that on the television, and my husband was watching the
television and I was washing dishes, and my husband said, “Karen, isn’t
that Jack?” And I said, I thought he was joking. I told him to shut up
and I started laughing, and sure enough it came out that it was Jack.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean you saw pictures of Jack Ruby?
Mrs. CARLIN. After that on the news.
Mr. HUBERT. Rerun, you mean?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You are talking about that famous picture that shows Jack
coming through?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. It shows really the back of him, doesn’t it?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you able to recognize him?
Mrs. CARLIN. They knew his name. They had already broadcast his name.
Mr. HUBERT. So that when you saw, you recognized him? You mean you
recognized his name before you saw any picture?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes. My husband was the one that first saw him. I didn’t
see it. It was a rerun, I think, that I saw, because they already had
his name and that he had the Carousel Club.
Mr. HUBERT. This was prior to the time you went to Western Union?
Mrs. CARLIN. No; I had not gone down to Western Union.
Mr. HUBERT. This was prior?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you do about the money at Western Union?
Mrs. CARLIN. After I saw the thing on television, I said I bet Jack
didn’t send the money, so my husband dialed the number and he asked if
they had a money order for me, and they said, “Yes.”
Mr. HUBERT. You mean dialed the number to the Western Union?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes. And he said, “Yes, they did.” Then my husband and I
got dressed and after we ate, we got dressed and went down and picked
it up.