The testimony of John Olridge Servance was taken at 11:45 a.m., on
April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office
Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert,
Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.
Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of John O. Servance.
Mr. Servance, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory
staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission.
Under the provisions of the Executive Order 11130, dated November
29, 1963, a Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of
procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive
order and joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn
deposition from you, Mr. Servance. I state to you now that the general
nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and
report upon any fact relating to the assassination of President
Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In
particular as to you, Mr. Servance, the nature of the inquiry today
is to determine the facts that you know about the death of Oswald and
any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry, and
particularly the opening of doors and so forth of the municipal office
or building. Now, you have appeared here by informal request made for
you to come. Under the rules adopted by the Commission you are actually
entitled to a 3-day written notice before you can be required to
come, but on the other hand, the rules of the Commission provide that
a witness may waive the 3-day notice if he sees fit to do so. Since
you have not had the 3-day written notice, I will ask you if you are
willing to waive the 3-day written notice and have your testimony taken
now?
Mr. SERVANCE. I will.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand and raise your right hand so that you may be
sworn. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony that you are about to
give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so
help you God?
Mr. SERVANCE. I do.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you please state your name.
Mr. SERVANCE. My name is John Olridge Servance. [Spelling]
S-e-r-v-a-n-c-e, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Servance. How old are you, sir?
Mr. SERVANCE. I am--beg your pardon, I am 54 years old.
Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live?
Mr. SERVANCE. I live at Lancaster, 319 Lancaster, Hutchins Road.
Lancaster Hutchins, 319 Lancaster Hutchins Road, Lancaster, Tex.
Mr. HUBERT. And what is your present occupation?
Mr. SERVANCE. I am a--the head porter, I believe that is the way it is
listed, foreman or supervisor, you might call it, over both buildings
at night. The city hall and the municipal city hall.
Mr. HUBERT. Those buildings annex, actually, not two separate buildings?
Mr. SERVANCE. Some connections.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, will you--we’ll go into that in a minute. How long
have you been so occupied, sir?
Mr. SERVANCE. Will be 17 years the 2d day of July, or let’s say 16.
Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been head porter out there?
Mr. SERVANCE. Well, I would presume about 15 years. I was head porter
before I come down there with some other part of the city. I was with
the water department.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I am marking a document which purports to be a report
of an interview with you by FBI Agent Jack Peden, as follows: “Dallas,
Texas, April 1, 1964, Exhibit 5131, deposition of John O. Servance,”
and I am signing my name on this document which is a one-page document,
and so that the record may show that we are both speaking about the
same document would you place your name below mine on that document,
sir? You may use this pen.
Mr. SERVANCE. Below yours?
Mr. HUBERT. Well, just anywhere there to the side.
Mr. SERVANCE. All right.
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Servance, have you read this document?
Mr. SERVANCE. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Exhibit 5131, which you have just signed?
Mr. SERVANCE. I read it.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it correct and true?
Mr. SERVANCE. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Any alterations or modifications that you wish to make to
it?
Mr. SERVANCE. No, it isn’t. Now, I mean, as far as I understood it. As
far as I could remember, that is true.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, you have just read it, haven’t you?
Mr. SERVANCE. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And it seems to be correct?
Mr. SERVANCE. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, do you know Alfreadia Riggs?
Mr. SERVANCE. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And Henry Fuqua?
Mr. SERVANCE. Hal Fuqua.
Mr. HUBERT. Hal Fuqua, is it?
Mr. SERVANCE. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see them in the basement that day?
Mr. SERVANCE. I saw them in the basement.
Mr. HUBERT. And all of you were sent up the service elevator by the
police to the first floor of the municipal building, is that right?
Mr. SERVANCE. That’s right, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. It is true that at one time during the course of the
morning there you opened the inside door on the Commerce Street
entrance of the municipal building so you all could look out?
Mr. SERVANCE. Well; yes, sir. I did, I opened the door. We
stood--there’s a glass vestibule, you know.
Mr. HUBERT. You stood in this vestibule. The outside doors to Commerce
Street remain open all the time, and the inside door is locked. You had
a key and you unlocked it and all of you stood in the vestibule for a
while, is that right?
Mr. SERVANCE. For a while, that’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. What happened to Riggs and Fuqua? Do you know?
Mr. SERVANCE. They was standing there. What I mean, we were there
during--all the excitement, I don’t know--everything just--I don’t know
what way--I thought they were still there. I didn’t see them. I mean,
that is--
Mr. HUBERT. When you left the vestibule, did you lock the door?
Mr. SERVANCE. I locked the door, I did.
Mr. HUBERT. Did anybody come in through the Commerce Street entrance
while you were standing there?
Mr. SERVANCE. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Could anyone have come in without your noticing it?
Mr. SERVANCE. No, sir; they couldn’t have.
Mr. HUBERT. Why do you say that?
Mr. SERVANCE. Well, first place, the door wasn’t opened all the time,
just for a few moments, and the next place there was a policeman out on
the outside didn’t allow us to come--and give us orders to go back in
and shut it.
Mr. HUBERT. I see, and anyhow, if anyone had come in probably you would
have seen them, isn’t that correct?
Mr. SERVANCE. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Mr. Jack Ruby?
Mr. SERVANCE. Never seen him before.
Mr. HUBERT. He didn’t pass through that door?
Mr. SERVANCE. No, sir; he didn’t.
Mr. HUBERT. And you definitely locked it?
Mr. SERVANCE. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, what other entrances or exits are there to the first
floor of the municipal building?
Mr. SERVANCE. Well, now, you would have--the first floor, we have
a gate leading from the city hall now, the old building from the
municipal----
Mr. HUBERT. The police building?
Mr. SERVANCE. Yes, sir; police building, I’ll put it that way, it was
locked.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, a corridor that connects the old police
building and the new municipal building?
Mr. SERVANCE. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. And it has a sort of an accordianlike gate which spreads
across the whole thing and runs from ceiling to floor?
Mr. SERVANCE. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. Does it lock?
Mr. SERVANCE. It was locked this day, the 24th.
Mr. HUBERT. It was? You know that to be a fact?
Mr. SERVANCE. I made sure. I locked it and then doublechecked it in the
morning.
Mr. HUBERT. It was never opened, then, as far as you know?
Mr. SERVANCE. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, what about the Main Street entrance?
Mr. SERVANCE. Well, it was locked; no one went out there.
Mr. HUBERT. And you know that to be a fact, too?
Mr. SERVANCE. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, what about the two elevators other than the service
elevator?
Mr. SERVANCE. They were cut off, completely off.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you know that?
Mr. SERVANCE. Well, every evening when I went there, every night they
cut them off. Well, then, I tested them to see were they off.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you test them?
Mr. SERVANCE. Mashed the button to see if it don’t run.
Mr. HUBERT. You tried on this morning to get--to make sure the
elevators were cut off?
Mr. SERVANCE. Their power is cut off. They are cut off. You have to go
up on the penthouse on top and cut them off.
Mr. HUBERT. They are cut off every night?
Mr. SERVANCE. And on weekends. Weekends; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. What other ways are there to get into the municipal
building from the first floor? We have Commerce Street and Main Street.
Mr. SERVANCE. They have the rear exit there.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about that?
Mr. SERVANCE. Well, you see, the service elevator has the double doors,
you open both of those doors there and go out the service elevator,
you can go out now, to the service elevator; we do have a way that
will unlock--well, in fact, have a chain of keys there and that if
anyone--anybody that is working on any of those floors during the
weekends, well, they can get those keys and go in there and out the
back, if they want.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, that back door to the building, that leads to what?
Mr. SERVANCE. Oh, it leads to the alley.
Mr. HUBERT. Leads to the alley? Is there a key in the elevator that
opens the back door?
Mr. SERVANCE. They were open; that’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. Are you familiar with how that back door works?
Mr. SERVANCE. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Can the back door be opened at any time without the key?
Mr. SERVANCE. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. In there--any button that you can push so you don’t need a
key?
Mr. SERVANCE. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, to go to that door, once it is closed, now,
coming from either way, from inside the building or from outside the
building, you have to have a key to make that door operate?
Mr. SERVANCE. Yes, sir; you really do. No, no, now, you can push shut,
you can snap the door and remain open.
Mr. HUBERT. If you want that door to stay open you’ve got to prop it
open. Once the door is closed you need a key no matter which way you
are coming?
Mr. SERVANCE. It is a door you have to lock, you know, you don’t--it
has got a catch there, but you have to lock it, you know, it is not a
turn--you know.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, you mean that you can go through that door and then
when it closes you--it is not locked unless you turn it?
Mr. SERVANCE. Well, that’s right. See, we can trip it off, you have got
a double lock, you understand. You know the doors got a night latch
like--you know, but in order to lock that door it has got another lock
in there that we turn.
Mr. HUBERT. Let me put it to you this way: Suppose a man uses the key
to get through the door from the outside of the building, now, the door
closes shut automatically, doesn’t it?
Mr. SERVANCE. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Does it lock so that you need the key to get back inside,
or not?
Mr. SERVANCE. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. It does not lock?
Mr. SERVANCE. It does not lock. In order to lock it from the alleyway
side so that nobody can come in you have got to turn it. Put the key
and turn.
Mr. HUBERT. Otherwise the door is open?
Mr. SERVANCE. That’s right, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, let’s go through that again, because it is very
important and I want to get it for sure. That door operates only with
a key, that is to say, from the inside. You can’t just use the door
without a key from the inside?
Mr. SERVANCE. Let’s put it this way. Once you lock the door you have
to have a key to unlock it. Now, see, you shut that door, it catches,
but it is not locked. See what I mean? But in order for that door to be
locked we have to put a key in there and turn that lock and let that
come out and go into that socket, you see?
Mr. HUBERT. So, a man who is going through those doors leading from the
municipal building to the alleyway uses the key to open the door to get
out into the alleyway. Now, when he leaves and goes down the alleyway
and has taken these keys with him, is that door then open so that
somebody can come in without a key or do you need a key to get back in
again?
Mr. SERVANCE. Well, now, if--usually, if the fellow’s got the key, he
usually locks it when he goes out.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, if he locks it back when he got--when he goes out but
he didn’t lock it again----
Mr. SERVANCE. You don’t need no key.
Mr. HUBERT. The door is open?
Mr. SERVANCE. You don’t need a key.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know from your own knowledge whether Riggs and Fuqua
went through that alley door that morning?
Mr. SERVANCE. I couldn’t say. I mean, I don’t--I mean I don’t recall
that. There is a possibility that they could have, but I don’t recall
it.
Mr. HUBERT. But you don’t know from your own knowledge?
Mr. SERVANCE. After the excitement came and hollering of the
elevators--I mean the sirens going we were watching the armored car
being backed to the entrance of that--cars coming out of there from the
basement and if they did, I didn’t know it, I mean, I can’t recall it.
There is a possibility, but actually to say, I couldn’t say it.
Mr. HUBERT. They were in uniforms, too?
Mr. SERVANCE. Yes, sir; they were in uniforms and working around there.
In fact, Riggs was in both of the buildings, you know. He was a porter
there that day for certain, and he had access of those things. What he
did--I mean, I only seen him there, and he disappeared, I didn’t notice
it.
Mr. HUBERT. There is one other way you can go down from the municipal
building to the basement, and that is through the fire escape, that is
to say, the door to the main floor of the municipal building is not
locked, and you can get to the staircase that way, can’t you?
Mr. SERVANCE. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And the door at the bottom of the stairway, which is the
entrance of the basement is always open so that you can get into the
basement?
Mr. SERVANCE. Not the weekends. You have to--you can come out, but you
can’t go in.
Mr. HUBERT. That’s what I mean. You can go in from the municipal
building. You can go through the fire escape doors?
Mr. SERVANCE. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. They are not locked?
Mr. SERVANCE. They are locked; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. They are locked on Sundays?
Mr. SERVANCE. Locked on Sundays, but, you see, you can come out, you
have a big bar that you can mash and come out of but you lock it and
you can’t go in.
Mr. HUBERT. Am I right in saying then that from the municipal floor,
first floor of the municipal building----
Mr. SERVANCE. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. You cannot go into the staircase?
Mr. SERVANCE. Not during the weekend. They keep it locked, or either at
night.
Mr. HUBERT. Always locked?
Mr. SERVANCE. Always locked, but you can always come out of there.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; in other words, if you are in the staircase itself,
you can come out?
Mr. SERVANCE. Come out, that’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. But, a man on the first floor of the municipal building
can’t go from the first floor to the basement by use of that staircase,
can he?
Mr. SERVANCE. Yes; inside he can.
Mr. HUBERT. No; once they get inside the staircase, yes, but suppose
he is standing on--in the lobby on the first floor, can he get through
those fire escape doors and get into the staircase and then go down and
out into the basement?
Mr. SERVANCE. Well, now, let me kind of clear this. You see, you have
three sets of those. You have two in the building, and one that comes
on the outside on the Commerce Street side. Is that the one you are
speaking of?
Mr. HUBERT. No; I am thinking of the one in the main lobby.
Mr. SERVANCE. Well, in the main lobby, if you are in the main lobby you
can through the door, go in the door, down from the staircase, on down
in the basement and go out, but you couldn’t come in.