Mr. RIGGS. Kept closed.
Mr. HUBERT. Who keeps it closed?
Mr. RIGGS. Well, usually the porter that works at night closes it up.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you check it to see that it was closed?
Mr. RIGGS. No, sir; I looked and it seemed to be closed actually.
Mr. HUBERT. That is to say that this gate, like a metal gate that runs
from the floor to the ceiling, was pulled to, but you don’t know if it
was locked?
Mr. RIGGS. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it possible to lock that door?
Mr. RIGGS. It is possible.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it possible to lock that corridor?
Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. So you have that door, you have an entrance from Commerce
Street, and there is an entrance on Main Street?
Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the condition of that door on Sunday?
Mr. RIGGS. Well, it was--well, I presume it was closed, too.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it usually?
Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir; during the weekend the old building is closed.
Like I say, I couldn’t verify to say that it was closed or it was
open, because actually, I did not check it, but----
Mr. HUBERT. You knew normally that it is closed?
Mr. RIGGS. It is closed, yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And it locks so that you can’t get in?
Mr. RIGGS. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, what about the entrance to the building, that entrance
and exit to the building, that leads to the alleyway?
Mr. RIGGS. The heavy back door back there?
Mr. HUBERT. There is a back door back there, isn’t there?
Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, does that door remain open, or closed, or what?
Mr. RIGGS. Well, it remains closed, too.
Mr. HUBERT. Closed all the time?
Mr. RIGGS. All the time. We usually keep a key on the elevator that
will open the back door.
Mr. HUBERT. The door that goes to the alley?
Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir; that goes into this alley, but it will not open
either the front door or the Harwood side or Main side.
Mr. HUBERT. That key is kept on a ring in the elevator?
Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, to go from the main floor of the municipal building,
that is, from the first floor to that alleyway, you have to go through
the service elevator, don’t you?
Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And the service elevator has two doors?
Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. One that opens up on the Main Street corridor of the
municipal building, and the other one that opens up on a corridor and
leads to the back door that leads to the alleyway?
Mr. RIGGS. To the alleyway.
Mr. HUBERT. And the key to that back door is in the elevator?
Mr. RIGGS. On the elevator, yes, sir. Now, there is another way, too,
on the first floor that you can go down the stairway and go to the
basement from the first floor.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that the fire escape?
Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And that is never closed?
Mr. RIGGS. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. So that if anybody is on the first floor they can get into
the basement by using the fire escape, or using the elevator?
Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, besides the service elevator that we already talked
about, the one that has two doors, there are two other elevators on
that floor?
Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir; but they usually cut off. They don’t have but one
elevator, and call it the freight elevator, the one that runs over the
weekend.
Mr. HUBERT. The other two were closed?
Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. They were closed that day?
Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir; they were cut off.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, now, I think you were saying that Mr. Servance
opened the Commerce Street door, is that correct?
Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. If you will, tell us about that.
Mr. RIGGS. Well, after we left from the basement and went to the first
floor, he opened the door on the Commerce Street side, and we stood up
there between the two doors, approximately, I’d say 45 minutes to an
hour.
Mr. HUBERT. When you say between the two doors, you mean that on
Commerce Street there is an outside door, and a sort of a vestibule,
and then inside doors?
Mr. RIGGS. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Sort of wind-break doors?
Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir; which actually, the outside door stays open
because they have, like I said, they have the deposit meter where you
can pay your bills and they keep it open.
Mr. HUBERT. So that the outside doors on the Commerce Street side are
always open, but then the inside doors also on the Commerce Street side
are closed on weekends?
Mr. RIGGS. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, Servance opened the inside door and then where did you
all go?
Mr. RIGGS. We stood in between.
Mr. HUBERT. In--you never did go out the outside door?
Mr. RIGGS. No, sir; because we had an officer outside the door. He was
standing on the steps there.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, what happened after that?
Mr. RIGGS. After we stood around there a certain length of time, I
don’t know exactly how long, I’d say approximately 45 minutes or an
hour, then the armored car came up, and they started backing down the
ramp, and Harold and myself decided that we would----
Mr. HUBERT. Pardon. Fuqua?
Mr. RIGGS. Fuqua; yes, sir. We decided we would try to go down in the
police locker room and maybe watch it on television. We came from the
first floor----
Mr. HUBERT. Well, you left the Commerce Street entrance--did you close
it? Did you lock it up?
Mr. RIGGS. No, sir; because Servance and the rest of them were still
standing up there.
Mr. HUBERT. So, you left before they did, and you don’t know whether he
locked it or not?
Mr. RIGGS. Then only Harold and myself left. We came in the elevator, I
got the keys, unlocked the back door, and I locked it back. I still had
the keys.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, when you went through the elevator door, did you leave
it open?
Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. The elevator door that is on the alleyway side was left
open?
Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And you took the key out of the elevator for the back door
on the alleyway, and you opened that back door?
Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you kept the key?
Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, did you leave that back door open?
Mr. RIGGS. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, what do you mean?
Mr. RIGGS. I made sure I locked it back, because actually we usually
are supposed to lock the door, keep it locked, and when I unlocked the
door from the inside and in turn, took the key and put it on the other
side and locked it back.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, then what did you do?
Mr. RIGGS. We left from the alleyway and walked to the left as we went
out the back door.
Mr. HUBERT. Towards Main Street?
Mr. RIGGS. Towards Main Street, yes, sir; and got to Main Street,
turned left going towards Harwood, and then as we passed--which is a
driveway that leads down to the ramp on the Main Street side, well,
we sort of glanced down through that-a-way to see, you understand. We
saw that armored car which we couldn’t see from up there on the top.
Then we left, and went to Harwood, made a left, which was going towards
Commerce off of Main Street, which is on Harwood, and as you get to
the--between the blocks of the building, half way, they have a--steps
that leads down into the basement.
Mr. HUBERT. On the Harwood Street side of the steps that lead down into
the basement? Did you go down those steps?
Mr. RIGGS. Actually, Harold asked me to go down and check and see if
it would be all right for us to go down because we were under the
impression that they had the police--had a police officer on the door.
After I went down and checked and there wasn’t anyone and then I turned
and told him to come down and he and I came on down too, and well, the
photographers and all was in the basement. All--we passed on by, and
went down to the police basement, which is--opposite from the prop
room. You have to go down the hall and down the steps.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean you went down into the locker room? That is where
all the policemen have their lockers and there’s a recreation room and
television and----
Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir; and television and--and there was a jail attendant
down there, actually he didn’t work in the jail office, he is not a
policeman, but he works in the jail office.
Mr. HUBERT. What is his name? Do you know?
Mr. RIGGS. No, sir; I really don’t. He told us that he didn’t think
they were going to show it on television. He imagined they were going
to run a tape and show it later on. Said, “Well, we should have stayed
up there. Maybe we could have seen him when they brought him out--”
While we were down there I bought a little can of soup, or chili or
something, and I was eating as we came back up to the--and we stood on
the opposite wall from the corridor that leads out to the basement from
the hallway that goes out to the basement, and where it has a door--I’m
sorry, I couldn’t explain, but actually it leads to the basement, goes
where they park the cars. We was standing up--opposite--in other words,
two corridors, you understand, separate that, and well, we was standing
up there maybe about 5 minutes, one of the newspapermen said, “Here he
come, here he come,” and well, we got on the other side of the wall
and was trying to look, well, so much rushing and all that actually we
didn’t see anything, and then did hear the shot, didn’t actually sound
like a shot, sort of muffled out.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you in the basement at that time?
Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. On the Commerce Street side, or the Main Street side?
Mr. RIGGS. It was in between, because it is--if you had been down
there, there is a way that comes through the basement, pass by the jail
office and corridor where you turn left, and go down there, turn right,
and police assembly room is down at the far end, and go up there way,
and go----
Mr. HUBERT. Did you go through the engineer’s room?
Mr. RIGGS. No, sir; this is down in the police building where the
records, the information is.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, perhaps if you look at this thing over here, this
mockup, you will be able to clarify this. Now, this is the jail office.
Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And see back over there is the parking area. This mockup
doesn’t show the elevators, but I have a map here which is a chart,
really, of that same area only more extensive. For instance, here is
the jail office, here are these two ramps, and this mockup only goes to
here, you see?
Mr. RIGGS. Uh-huh.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, what I want you to do is to identify this first by
marking as follows: “Dallas, Texas, April 1, 1964, Exhibit 5129,
deposition of Alfreadia Riggs,” I am signing my name on it, and so that
the record may show that we are both talking about the same thing, I’m
asking you to put your name below mine on there. Now, I want you to
look at the mockup first and locate first where you were when the shot
was fired, then we’ll mark it on the map.
Mr. RIGGS. Well, actually, they didn’t have it on here, just this part
here is extended out, see what I am referring to is this corridor
leads down here that goes to the police assembly room, this part
here is--corridor here leads towards Commerce Street side. Now, it
has--along here it has a corner here, that is what--two corridors
there, and this is just a wall what leads into the elevators. Now,
when--actually when they--when they was bringing him out, we were
standing on this side, and when they brought him out we moved from here
over to here [indicating].
Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, sir, you have testified that actually, your
first position is not shown on either the mockup or the map?
Mr. RIGGS. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. But, if it were on the map, it would be shown at the bottom
of the map?
Mr. RIGGS. That’s right, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And you moved up to a position about here [indicating]?
Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. So, I am marking an “X” and putting a circle around it as
to the position you moved to when you heard the shot, right?
Mr. RIGGS. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. I am marking in my own handwriting, “Position of Alfreadia
Riggs at the time of shooting.” I am putting that in a circle and
connecting it to the smaller circle with the “X” in it. The smaller
circle with the “X” in it being the spot at which Alfreadia Riggs
testified he was standing at the time of the shot, is that correct?
Mr. RIGGS. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. And Fuqua was with you?
Mr. RIGGS. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you had come from a position that, if it were on the
map, would be toward the bottom of the map?
Mr. RIGGS. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recognize the position of the service elevator here?
Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. After you had been told to get out of the parking area
marked here, and you had gone up with these others on the service
elevator to the first floor, did you ever get back into this part on
the map called parking area?
Mr. RIGGS. Well, only after everything was over.
Mr. HUBERT. I understand, but prior to the shooting, you never did get
back?
Mr. RIGGS. Never did get back down there; no, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You had gone through the service elevator, not on the area
shown by this Exhibit 5129, because that is the basement area?
Mr. RIGGS. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. But on that same service elevator on the next floor up?
Mr. RIGGS. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. And went through that elevator to the back door, turned to
your left onto Main Street, passed the ramp on Main Street, went over
to Harwood Street, went down into the basement area through the Harwood
Street----
Mr. RIGGS. Entrance; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Entrance that goes down to the basement. Then you went to
the recreation room and finally came to the position you indicated just
before the shooting?
Mr. RIGGS. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you get back to the main floor of the municipal
building after the shooting?
Mr. RIGGS. After the shooting--during the excitement and that, during
the excitement Harold and I, we went over to the police information
room over there to get out of the way of the traffic. The police was
all--they was closing all the entrances and wasn’t letting anyone in
and letting no one out, so, in order to keep from being in the way, we
went inside the information room, and stayed over there, I imagine 30
minutes, 20 or 30 minutes, and Harold asked chief--I think it was Chief
Lumpkin for him to escort us from there to the basement, because--I
think he wanted to go home, or his time was up or something. He wanted
to get out of there, because it made him pretty nervous, and Chief
Lumpkin escorted us through the corridor there that leads to the
basement to the parking area, and we went over there and stayed, or was
down in the basement, and after the time elapsed, I went down in our
porter room and stayed around there until time for me to get off.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you do with the keys that you had?
Mr. RIGGS. I put them back in the elevator.
Mr. HUBERT. You put them back in the elevator on what floor?
Mr. RIGGS. In the basement there.
Mr. HUBERT. Was the elevator down in the basement then?
Mr. RIGGS. Well, I called it down.
Mr. HUBERT. Was McKinzie operating the elevator?
Mr. RIGGS. Yes; he was.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he see you put the keys back?
Mr. RIGGS. I don’t know for sure. During the excitement and all of
that, I think--I don’t know whether he and I or someone got to talking
about the incident, and I don’t remember.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you did not go out through the Main Street door when
you went out with Fuqua?
Mr. RIGGS. No, sir; definitely.
Mr. HUBERT. Back in the alley?
Mr. RIGGS. Back in the alley; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And you had the keys with you all the time?
Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Why did you take the keys with you?
Mr. RIGGS. Well, because there was only this once that--well, actually,
I usually, normally have a key. As a matter of fact, I have quite a
few keys. I didn’t have mine with me during that time, and that was
the only one during that time that would open up that door that was
available, and it stays in the elevator, we close that, because lots of
times some of those porters in the other building will use the keys in
the elevator to put trash out this back door.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, that door, as a matter of fact, can only be opened
from either side. You need a key no matter which way you are coming
from?
Mr. RIGGS. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. It can’t be set so that it is open?
Mr. RIGGS. You have to unlock it from the inside and going out, to lock
it back, you have to lock it from the outside. In coming back through
you have to unlock it from the outside with the key.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, I understood that that back door would not open
in any way without a key so that if you went through it with a key it
would close by itself and you would need a key to get back in again?
Mr. RIGGS. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. You couldn’t put a snap on that to keep it open?
Mr. RIGGS. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. There is no snap?
Mr. RIGGS. No, sir; I don’t think. You have to use a key.
Mr. HUBERT. You were in uniform that day?
Mr. RIGGS. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. That uniform, is a well-known uniform?
Mr. RIGGS. It is gray with red letters. It has “City of Dallas,” on the
left side, and name on the right of it.
Mr. HUBERT. Your name sewed on?
Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir, embroidered on.
Mr. HUBERT. Right.
Mr. RIGGS. First initial and last name.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I am showing you a document which purports to be a
report of an interview of you by FBI Agent Jack Peden, and I am marking
it for identification as follows: “Dallas, Tex., April 1, 1964, Exhibit
5130, deposition of Alfreadia Riggs,” and putting my name on the first
page and since it has a second page I am marking on the second page my
initials in the lower right-hand corner. I would like you to read that
report and see if it reflects the truth, as far as you know it?
Mr. RIGGS. That’s right, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, in order that the record can show that we are both
talking about the same document, I would ask you to sign your name
below mine on the margin there, or next to it, and place your initials
on the second page as I have done. Now, you have signed your name on
the first page of Exhibit 5130, and your--put your initials on the
second page. Have you read it?
Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Does it represent the truth?
Mr. RIGGS. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. Any corrections or alterations to be made, or anything?
Mr. RIGGS. My--no, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Are you willing to state that if we consider the facts
stated in Exhibit 5130 and the facts as stated by you in this
deposition that we have everything whatsoever that you now know about
this matter?
Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Nothing that is left out?
Mr. RIGGS. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Everything is correct?
Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir. Everything is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. I should have added that if we also consider the
information you have testified to on Exhibit 5128 and 5128-A, that is
the sign-in sheet, we have the full information of that?
Mr. RIGGS. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, have you been previously interviewed by any
member of the President’s Commission?
Mr. RIGGS. No, sir; I haven’t.
Mr. HUBERT. You have not been interviewed previously by me, or anybody
who identified themselves as being connected with the President’s
Commission?
Mr. RIGGS. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, Alfreadia, I just want to get clear once
again on one point. Is it possible, at all, that you went out of the
municipal building through the Main Street entrance?
Mr. RIGGS. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. With Fuqua?
Mr. RIGGS. No, sir; we definitely went through the back door.
Mr. HUBERT. You and Fuqua?
Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir; me and Harold Fuqua.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, that’s all, thank you very much.