“Dallas, Tex., April 16, 1964, as Exhibit 5329, Deposition of George
R. Phenix,” and I am signing my name below that. That document also
contains only one page and purports to be a report of an interview with
FBI Agents Harding and Rawlings. Have you had an opportunity to read
the exhibits, which have been identified as Exhibits 5328 and 5329?
Mr. PHENIX. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you consider that those exhibits represent a true and
fair report of the interviews which they purport to cover?
Mr. PHENIX. Yes, sir. Now, the second one updates the first one. The
second one is more correct.
Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, the one dated November 28, 1963, identified
as Exhibit No. 5329, goes into more detail than the one dated November
24, which has been identified as Exhibit 5328?
Mr. PHENIX. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you perceive any conflicts between them?
Mr. PHENIX. No--mainly--I don’t know if you need this for your record
or not. Mainly, there is just a correction in an impression I had. I
was located around by the crew and in that first interview, I thought
I would have been hit by Ruby since he was in front of me, as he
stepped out of the crowd, but then we know--one says we know it wasn’t
Ruby--that’s about it.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, could you more graphically show your position--I have
asked you previously to study this FBI mockup of the jail office,
showing also the Commerce and Main Street ramps, the ramp from the
parking area into the street ramps, and I am going to ask you if you
would show us, now, where you were when you first came into the area
that this mockup shows, and I will explain the system that I will use.
If you will point to the place on the mockup, we will then agree as to
what that point is on the chart and mark it so, and then if you change
positions from one to another, we will so indicate, so that any person
who reads your testimony with this chart before them can follow it
intelligently.
Mr. PHENIX. All right.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, in order that the chart may be properly identified, I
am marking it as follows: “Dallas, Tex., April 16, 1964, Exhibit No.
5330, Deposition of George R. Phenix.” I will sign my name below that.
Now, Mr. Phenix, at what time did you first come down into the basement
and into this area?
Mr. PHENIX. It was a little after 9 o’clock, according to that
statement, it said 9:10--it was closer to 9 o’clock.
Mr. HUBERT. You remained in the basement area the entire time until the
actual shooting?
Mr. PHENIX. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. I guess it is correct to state you didn’t stay in one
particular spot all that time?
Mr. PHENIX. Oh, I unloaded the gear from the car in the area between
the two stop signs at the level portion there where cars normally stop.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you point to that on here?
Mr. PHENIX. Right here [indicating].
Mr. HUBERT. I am marking on Exhibit 5330 the spot where Mr. Phenix has
stated that he unloaded the gear with a number one in a circle there
and drawing a line from that, and I am writing “Spot where Phenix first
unloaded gear at about 9:10 a.m.” What was that gear?
Mr. PHENIX. The camera, the unipod, a microphone, and battery pack.
Mr. HUBERT. You unloaded it from a truck?
Mr. PHENIX. The Mobile News Unit--it is a station wagon we normally
drive.
Mr. HUBERT. Have I marked the spot correctly?
Mr. PHENIX. Right, and then from there I think I milled around a little
bit and said, “Hello,” to the newsmen I recognized from the day before
on the third floor and all the available spots were taken over here at
this corner which were really the best spots.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, when you say “over here at this corner,” I am going
to put the number 2 with a circle under it and draw a line out and
indicate that you have stated that the place that I marked number 2 was
the best spot, but already taken.
Mr. PHENIX. By most of the photographers there.
Mr. HUBERT. I am writing in the words “Phenix says this number 2 spot
was already taken by other news media”----
Mr. PHENIX. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. “When he arrived.” Is that a correct statement?
Mr. PHENIX. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, now you can go on?
Mr. PHENIX. Then, I picked a spot just inside this rail--I was standing
on the curb--I was to the right of our live camera that was set up
there.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that on the parking area side of the rail or the ramp
side of the rail?
Mr. PHENIX. The ramp side--I was standing on the curb there, leaning
against the rail, and the camera, part of the camera sticking out over
the rail.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, this chart does not show the rail itself except by a
marked line, but it does show two posts and I ask you if it isn’t fair
to state that what you are talking about is this position that I have
here?
Mr. PHENIX. Yes, that’s right, because I had a clear view down to the
swinging doors.
Mr. HUBERT. Let’s put it this way: I’m going to mark a line from
two points, one point being number three and the other point number
four--that line being the space between the two main posts.
Mr. PHENIX. Okay.
Mr. HUBERT. Looking at the mockup, there is a rail between those two
main posts, and that rail is equally divided into three parts, by two
vertical posters, is that correct?
Mr. PHENIX. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. If we call one of the vertical posters point number five
and the other one point number six, then as I understand your testimony
you were on the ramp side rather than the parking area side of the rail?
Mr. PHENIX. Correct.
Mr. HUBERT. And you were approximately at the point by the post marked
on this chart as point number six?
Mr. PHENIX. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. I am marking point number six as “position of Phenix at the
time of shooting.”
Mr. PHENIX. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you have testified that immediately to your left
there was a TV camera belonging to the same station as your own?
Mr. PHENIX. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. I’m going to mark without any attempt to do it in scale
by a square which I am marking “Square A” and drawing a line out to
indicate position of KRLD TV camera.
Mr. PHENIX. You might say live camera.
Mr. HUBERT. Live camera--and that camera was just to your left and a
bit back of you, because it was on the other side of the rail, right?
Mr. PHENIX. Yes; the camera itself was behind me, the lens stuck out.
Mr. HUBERT. Over the rail?
Mr. PHENIX. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. There was another live camera in that area too, wasn’t
there?
Mr. PHENIX. Right--it was to the left of ours.
Mr. HUBERT. So, again without attempting to draw this to scale, I will
draw a rectangular figure, marking it “B” and state that that was the
position of the other TV camera.
Mr. PHENIX. I am not sure whose that was.
Mr. HUBERT. It was another live camera, but not a KRLD?
Mr. PHENIX. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, your testimony is that as to the live
camera which we have marked by rectangle with a “B” in the middle of
that rectangle, you know it was a live camera and it was not a KRLD
camera, but you don’t know whose camera it was?
Mr. PHENIX. Right--this might be incidental--I either laid the camera
down or had one of our production crew that was with the live camera
hold it and I swung my mike over the overhead pipes in this area--it’s
really not important, but that’s part of the milling around I was doing.
Mr. HUBERT. I gather what you wanted to do was to get your mike in a
position to catch sound if it was possible to do so?
Mr. PHENIX. Yes; right.
Mr. HUBERT. So, from your position six on this Exhibit 5330, you slung,
shall we say, or hung----
Mr. PHENIX. Hung.
Mr. HUBERT. Your wires with the live mike, the end of it, so that it
would hang down, I suppose, just as you indicated--just roughly at the
position we originally marked number 1?
Mr. PHENIX. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Which is where you physically were?
Mr. PHENIX. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. So that now position No. 1 has two meanings--it is the
position you first came to and the position where your mike was hanging.
Mr. PHENIX. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us something of the number of people to your
right and in the ramp going towards Main Street?
Mr. PHENIX. It’s a little hard to say--that camera that I was using
was such that the eyepiece is on the left and I normally keep it in a
ready position on my shoulder so it blocks my vision to the right, but
there were maybe 10 or 15 people milling around there--some were news
commentators and some were radio men with tape recorders----
Mr. HUBERT. Some policemen?
Mr. PHENIX. Some policemen.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you judge there were 18 to 20 people along in there?
Mr. PHENIX. It could be.
Mr. HUBERT. By the way, how long were you in that position No. 6 prior
to the time of the shooting?
Mr. PHENIX. Probably at least an hour--I just didn’t want to leave it,
and we didn’t know at what exact time he was coming down.
Mr. HUBERT. What about the condition of the people and the numbers
thereof to your left from position No. 6?
Mr. PHENIX. Well, there were many more--as we got ready to bring Oswald
out, policemen lined this wall here and formed a line coming out of the
swinging doors, and then the newsmen were back at position two mainly.
Mr. HUBERT. Suppose we mark a line and we will call that line--let’s
say starting at No. 7 in a circle, and moving and turning towards
Commerce Street to point 8, roughly.
Mr. PHENIX. Okay.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, that curving line, which is line 7 to 8 is where
police were lined, is that correct?
Mr. PHENIX. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Were there police lined elsewhere?
Mr. PHENIX. I believe part of this line coming down the other side were
policemen.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, if we mark a line now, calling it one point
of the line nine, and the other one----
Mr. PHENIX. It went straight down this way [indicating].
Mr. HUBERT. Straight into you?
Mr. PHENIX. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Which side of you?
Mr. PHENIX. To my right--a little bit.
Mr. HUBERT. Then, we mark a line from 9 to 10, with point 10 being
immediately to the right of point 6 where you were standing?
Mr. PHENIX. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Then, you say there were policemen along in that line too?
Mr. PHENIX. Yes; police and press.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, take it from there.
Mr. PHENIX. Well, from there I waited until--I believe it was a
United Press International movie photographer, Isidore, or something,
everybody called him Izzie--I don’t know his last name, came running
down from the swinging doors, I think he was the one, and said, “He’s
coming,” meaning Oswald, so we all got ready, and the camera has an
eyepiece----
Mr. HUBERT. Your camera?
Mr. PHENIX. Right; that operates through a prism that looks directly
through the lens, so I had to have my eyes stuck against the eyepiece
in order to see through it. So, from then on, all I saw was Oswald
coming down the hallway there, and I didn’t actually--I wasn’t aware of
seeing Ruby step out of the crowd--I knew something had happened and
the shot--at the shot somebody came roaring in from my left and almost
knocked me down. The unipod was braced on the curb and it slipped down
to the main level of the ramp and almost fell, and looking through the
eyepiece and over the eyepiece, too, just shooting out of habit really,
the camera was running all the time--I followed the action of the
policeman wrestling with Ruby--it just happened that they moved to my
right.
Mr. HUBERT. Your film, as a matter of fact, is that famous film that
catches Ruby moving forward and the wrestling?
Mr. PHENIX. Right; I just saw it once and we were so busy, but I think
it was the one where Ruby’s hat was in the corner of the opening frame
and he steps out.
Mr. HUBERT. You have seen it since, haven’t you?
Mr. PHENIX. Oh, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Ruby?
Mr. PHENIX. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you observed him in the crowd prior to these events?
Mr. PHENIX. I can’t remember it. I heard someone say in the crowd after
they took Ruby and after Oswald left in the ambulance that it was Jack
Ruby, and the name didn’t mean a thing to me.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear anybody running down the ramp just before the
shooting, running down or possibly walking down?
Mr. PHENIX. No, I think if he had been running I would have heard him
because the sound just echoes in that basement.
I saw some film, and I’m sure you’ve seen it too, some of the film
that showed Ruby positioned down there, and he looks back where you
catch almost a full shot of his face before Oswald comes down, and that
anyway--it just looks like he was there for a while.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear Ruby say anything?
Mr. PHENIX. No; maybe in the excitement I heard him, but I don’t
remember hearing this famous quotation about “Jack, you S. O. B.”
Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t hear anybody; hear anything, including
Ruby--anything distinguishable that you now remember?
Mr. PHENIX. The only one I can remember is Bob Huffaker, who is the
mike man for our live camera, saying over and over that “He’s been
shot,” and he was calling him “Lee Harold Oswald.” I don’t know
why--and then just in general--a few words.
Mr. HUBERT. You heard him saying, “He’s been shot, he’s been shot, he’s
been shot,” a number of times?
Mr. PHENIX. Yes, and the policemen telling everybody to stand back.
Mr. HUBERT. What about the security precautions that were in existence,
and would you comment about those as far as you observed them?
Mr. PHENIX. Well, as we drove in there were several officers down
there, but nobody made any effort, you know, to talk to us as we drove
in--we were in the car that had big KRLD letters on it and Wes Wise
was known to some of them, but I wasn’t; Wes was driving the car.
Mr. HUBERT. There was a guard there that seemed to look you over?
Mr. PHENIX. Now, I don’t remember a guard on the Main Street side as we
drove in.
Mr. HUBERT. Of course, that was at 9 o’clock?
Mr. PHENIX. Right, and later, I think there was a lieutenant from the
Dallas Police Force just walking through the crowds, and I could tell
he was looking me over, and stood there about 3 or 4 feet from me a
little bit and never said anything.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know any of the people from WBAP-TV in Fort Worth?
Mr. PHENIX. I know some of their camera men--the reporter-camera
men--is that Channel 5?
Mr. HUBERT. I don’t know. Do you know Tankersley, a Mr. Tankersley?
Mr. PHENIX. I think I know who he is.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Mr. Timmons?
Mr. PHENIX. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Jim Turner?
Mr. PHENIX. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe during the time you were standing at your
position No. 6, a camera being loaded through the double doors or
swinging doors at the jail corridor?
Mr. PHENIX. Yes; there was a live camera also--I don’t know whose that
was and I don’t even know where the camera wound up--the final position.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe how many people were pushing it along?
Mr. PHENIX. I didn’t really pay any attention to it.
Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know even now whose camera it was?
Mr. PHENIX. It was either NBC or ABC--it was a local camera man but
they were shooting for one of those two networks.
Mr. HUBERT. How long before the shooting was it that you saw this
camera being rolled out from the jail corridor?
Mr. PHENIX. Not--it wasn’t too long before the shooting--maybe 20
minutes. We were getting a little edgy from sitting there so long, so
it’s hard to estimate time, or, I was getting edgy.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you notice a police car come from the parking area up
the ramp that goes from the parking area to the level of the basement
area and turn right, pass you, and go on up the Main Street ramp?
Mr. PHENIX. You mean come out from here and go out this way?
[Indicating on markup.]
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; that’s right.
Mr. PHENIX. I can’t remember, really. I may have and I may not--I
just really can’t remember. I know there was--I believe there was a
paddy wagon that came through earlier. It seems like I remember a car,
though, driving out.
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Phenix, have you ever been interviewed before by any
member of the Commission’s Staff?
Mr. PHENIX. No.
Mr. HUBERT. And actually, you were not interviewed by me before this
deposition began?
Mr. PHENIX. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it fair to state that anyone reading the two reports or
statements that you have given, identified as Exhibits 5328 and 5329,
and following your deposition today, with the chart that has been
identified as Exhibit 5330, would have the whole story, as far as you
know anything about it?
Mr. PHENIX. Yes; but I would like to say that I believe it is in
Exhibit 5329 that I said that no other newsmen were asked for their
identification.
Mr. HUBERT. All right.
Mr. PHENIX. Now, that’s just as far as I know--I didn’t actually see--I
couldn’t say that absolutely no one was asked.
Mr. HUBERT. All right--that’s all right--you are telling me that is a
possibility?
Mr. PHENIX. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. All you can say is what you observed?
Mr. PHENIX. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. And from your observation, you didn’t see anybody else
being asked?
Mr. PHENIX. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything else you would like to say about this?
Mr. PHENIX. No; that’s all.
Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much. We appreciate your coming up here.
Mr. PHENIX. All right.