Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.
Mr. McMILLON. Or down near the police station or anything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Uh-huh. Did you see anything on the 22d that might be of
value to the Commission?
Mr. McMILLON. The only thing that I saw was what events that I saw on
television.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, on the 23d, when you arrived at work, where did you
go?
Mr. McMILLON. To the auto theft bureau.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you work in the auto theft bureau all day Saturday?
Mr. McMILLON. Yes; until 3 p.m.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What I mean to say is, did you go out of the building?
Mr. McMILLON. I don’t recall if I did or not. Maybe I might have gone
out for coffee. It seemed to me like I had lunch in the locker room
that day. I am not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that on the third floor of the police department
building?
Mr. McMILLON. The locker room?
Mr. GRIFFIN. No, no; the auto theft bureau.
Mr. McMILLON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see anybody in the police department that day who
was--who you recognized as not being a police officer or a newsman or
somebody who was there visiting your department on official business?
Mr. McMILLON. Well, I don’t know how to answer that. There were a lot
of people there. Some of them were in and out. People at first started
out during that day coming to our office to get automobiles released
from the pound.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. McMILLON. People in and out like that, and I saw a number of people
that I didn’t know, and I didn’t see identification on them and didn’t
recognize them as probably being newsmen or with the press or some news
media.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was your office in the auto theft bureau used by the news
people for any purposes?
Mr. McMILLON. Yes. They used our phones quite often.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did this cause you problems?
Mr. McMILLON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give some idea of what kind of problems these news
people were causing you?
Mr. McMILLON. Well, our phones were pretty well tied up. There seemed
to be quite a commotion in and around and about the office. It made it
difficult to work.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Uh-huh. Did you people attempt to make any effort to get
these news people out?
Mr. McMILLON. We were cooperative with them. If they asked to use
a phone and if there was a phone available, we extended them every
courtesy along that line.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Uh-huh. Did you see Jack Ruby at any time on Friday or
Saturday?
Mr. McMILLON. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And, as I understand, you left work on Saturday about 3 in
the afternoon?
Mr. McMILLON. Right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you left work on Saturday, did you have any idea that
Lee Harvey Oswald would be moved from the county jail the next day--to
the county jail the next day?
Mr. McMILLON. No. I may or may not have heard any rumors, I don’t
remember, but I didn’t know when he would be moved. I had heard some
rumors, I believe, but I didn’t know when he would be moved.
Mr. GRIFFIN. After work that night, did you have any occasion to be
around the police department?
Mr. McMILLON. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do Saturday night?
Mr. McMILLON. I don’t recall. The best I remember, it seemed to me like
I stayed home and watched television. I may have gone out, but I think
I stayed home.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What time did you report for work on Sunday morning?
Mr. McMILLON. 7 a.m.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember where you parked your car Sunday morning?
Mr. McMILLON. I am sure it is the same parking lot that I always park
on. I park on a pay lot at the corner of Main and Pearl.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you parked, which corner did you park on?
Mr. McMILLON. It would be the southeast corner of Main and Pearl.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is actually between Main and Commerce, isn’t it?
Mr. McMILLON. Huh-uh. Well, you might consider it that way. Can I use
some paper here to show you what I mean?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Take this.
Mr. McMILLON. Okay. This would be Pearl Expressway, the directions,
your north and south.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. McMILLON. Main Street running--okay. This was actually the way the
streets were running.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. McMILLON. Main running east and west, Commerce running east and
west, and, of course, here is Pearl going south.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. On here, will you mark a mark?
Mr. McMILLON. Right over here, right in here is where I parked my car,
this parking lot.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. Where you just placed an “X”? I am going to mark
this, if I can, mark this “Dallas, Tex., Detective T. D. McMillon.”
That is [spelling] M-i-l-l-o-n, right?
Mr. McMILLON. Right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. 3-25-64, Exhibit 5015. At the time you arrived for work,
was there a police officer stationed at the corner of Main and Pearl?
Mr. McMILLON. I don’t recall whether there was or wasn’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, from that parking lot, Mr. McMillon, how did you get
into the police department? Did you walk down Main or Commerce?
Mr. McMILLON. Down Main.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you--how did you go, in the Main Street ramp?
Mr. McMILLON. No. I probably took the first floor elevator, elevator,
first floor. I usually do. That particular day, I recall I walked down
this ramp, but I don’t recall whether I took the steps and went up to
the first floor and went up the elevator. That is the way I usually go
in.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You go into the city hall, as opposed to the municipal
building, there is a set of steps going up into the police building?
Mr. McMILLON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And then, when you arrived, were there any people
congregated around the Main Street ramp?
Mr. McMILLON. Not that I recall. I don’t know if there was or not. I
don’t recall there being any there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any other cars parked in the parking lot when
you arrived?
Mr. McMILLON. Yes; I am sure there was. I don’t know whose or which
ones.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you recognize Jack Ruby’s car?
Mr. McMILLON. I haven’t seen Jack’s car.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do when you got up to the auto theft bureau?
Mr. McMILLON. I don’t know. Probably the first thing I did, probably
take my coat off and go get a cup of coffee, bring it back out of the
machine. That is my normal habit or routine.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there a machine up on the third floor?
Mr. McMILLON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it just in the auto theft bureau or is it accessible?
Mr. McMILLON. No. There is a little lounge that is accessible to the
public.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And do the police officers normally take a coffee break in
there?
Mr. McMILLON. Not normally, but you may occasionally see some in there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do the police officers normally go?
Mr. McMILLON. Martin’s or the Majestic. Of course, Martin’s wouldn’t be
open on Sunday, I don’t think. Wherever you can go. You might possibly
go to the locker room, if you wanted to. There is a coffee machine down
there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Uh-huh. Do you remember what you did up until the time
that you were asked to go down into the basement?
Mr. McMILLON. I tried to work on some of my cases, the best I could.
I don’t remember whether I was trying to contact some complainants
by phone or whether I had checked some prisoners out of the jail,
was working out on prisoners, exactly what I was doing. I know I was
working in the office when Lieutenant Smart came through and said,
“Don’t anybody leave.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any of the cases that you worked on that
day?
Mr. McMILLON. Huh-uh.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you busy answering telephone calls from people?
Mr. McMILLON. Yes; I answered some phone calls from people. Yes, sir; I
sure did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you get any phone calls in connection with the murder
of the President?
Mr. McMILLON. Not that I recall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn’t get any of these crank calls?
Mr. McMILLON. No; I didn’t take any crank calls. I sure didn’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you got up there, what other officers were on duty in
the auto theft bureau?
Mr. McMILLON. Well, now, let’s see. I recall I was on duty, Lieutenant
Smart, Detective Clardy. That is my partner. Detective Rivers was
working at the desk, what we call the desk. I was working in the auto
theft. He is the one that was making out the assignments.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it Clardy?
Mr. McMILLON. No; it wasn’t Clardy.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was it?
Mr. McMILLON. Ed Rivers. Archer and Greeson were on duty.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you spell that?
Mr. McMILLON. I believe that boy spells it [spelling] G-r-e-e-s-o-n,
and then I don’t recall if they were there, but they were on duty this
day. Detective Watson, Detective Dawson, and I don’t remember who the
others were.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you arrived for duty, did you know that Jack
Ruby was--did you know that Lee Oswald might be moved that day?
Mr. McMILLON. No. I personally felt that he might, but I didn’t know
that he would.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you arrived for duty, at any time after you
arrived and before Oswald was shot, did you hear that someone had
called during the night and threatened to get Oswald?
Mr. McMILLON. No; not that I recall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you people in the auto theft bureau, did you talk
about the expected movement of Oswald that day?
Mr. McMILLON. Yes; the best I remember, we probably did, theories and
opinions, probably. I don’t recall how the conversation went.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall whether at any time prior to the time that
Lieutenant Smart asked you to go downstairs there was any discussion as
to when Ruby--Oswald would be moved?
Mr. McMILLON. I don’t recall any discussions. After he told us that, I
still continued busy at something, and I remember that I was the last
one out of the office when we all started to leave to go down there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you arrived down in the office, when you walked out
of your office, did you see any police officers in the hall that you
recognized?
Mr. McMILLON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you see out there?
Mr. McMILLON. I don’t recall who they were. You are speaking of the
third floor?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, yes.
Mr. McMILLON. I don’t recall who they were. I would have known most of
those men, but I recall seeing some that I recognized. Right now, I
don’t recall who they were, but I remember seeing them and recognizing
them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember who you went down on the elevator with?
Mr. McMILLON. I believe most of them were the men from my office and
some more, the best I remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember if you went down with men from the other
bureaus?
Mr. McMILLON. Yes; there probably were some detectives from the other
bureaus. I don’t recall who they were now.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Now, was there anybody in charge of this general
movement going downstairs, was there one man going around rounding
everybody up?
Mr. McMILLON. I don’t know. I felt like I was under the supervision of
Lieutenant Smart until I later learned that there was a man ranking to
him down there who was giving orders.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you got downstairs, where did you go?
Mr. McMILLON. From the--I got off of the elevator and walked straight
through two swinging doors and just outside of the jail office.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So you were between the swinging doors and the ramp?
Mr. McMILLON. Right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were all of the police officers sort of out there
waiting or were they spread out on both sides of those swinging doors?
Mr. McMILLON. Well, we later had spread out on both sides of the doors.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, at the time that you came down, was there a general
meeting held outside of the swinging doors?
Mr. McMILLON. There seemed to be to me, and a few minutes later,
Captain Jones told us what he wanted done.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. But when you congregated outside of those swinging
doors, it was everybody sort of milling around, nobody giving
instructions?
Mr. McMILLON. It was right at first.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you see W. J. Harrison down there when you were
outside of the swinging doors?
Mr. McMILLON. At what point?
Mr. GRIFFIN. At that point.
Mr. McMILLON. I don’t recall if I saw him at that point or not, but I
saw him down there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall anybody that you saw down there as you
congregated?
Mr. McMILLON. When we first arrived down there?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. McMILLON. I don’t know who all was down there. I know we were from
the auto theft bureau. I recall Captain Jones being there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, from the time that you got down there and taking the
time that you were milling around in front of the swinging doors, how
long was it from then until Lee Oswald was brought down?
Mr. McMILLON. I would say about 20 minutes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had the armored car been brought in?
Mr. McMILLON. I have to assume that the armored car was in the position
that it was, since I have since learned what I have. As I recall, I
never did see the armored car.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You just don’t have any recollection of seeing it at all
that day?
Mr. McMILLON. I don’t remember seeing that armored car at all. I may
have, but I sure don’t remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were the TV cameras moved while you were down there?
Mr. McMILLON. There was some TV cameras placed in position while we
were there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were they moved out of one position to another while you
were there?
Mr. McMILLON. I think I know what you mean. We had those people move
back over kind of in the mouthway to this deal, which would have
been in my position that I finally took up, just moments before the
shooting, the position that I was in then. Anyway, we had moved or had
instructed those people to move back over, which would have been to my
right. I will correct that. Left. This is my left hand.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. Now, let me ask you this. When you walked--went down
there and were waiting before anybody gave you any instructions, did
you see a TV camera on the jail office side of the railing, anywhere
between the railing and the jail office?
Mr. McMILLON. It seems to me like I did, but I can’t be sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, do you remember whether a camera was moved from a
position somewhere near the swinging doors back away across the ramp
and behind the railing?
Mr. McMILLON. Yes; it seems to me like I do, but I wasn’t paying any
attention, because it seemed to me like there was cameras everywhere.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, there finally came a time when somebody
gave you some instructions?
Mr. McMILLON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was that?
Mr. McMILLON. Captain Jones, and, of course, Lieutenant Smart was
assisting him, but Captain Jones explained to us that, when they
brought the prisoner out, that he wanted two lines formed and we were
to keep these two lines formed, you know, a barrier on either side of
them, kind of an aisle. We were kind of to make an aisle for them to
walk through, and when they came down this aisle, we were to keep this
line intact and move along with them until the man was placed in the
car.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So you were sort of supposed to pick him up as a flanker?
Mr. McMILLON. That was my understanding.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Uh-huh. Now, did--were you assigned to any position, to
take up any particular position?
Mr. McMILLON. No; the man told us what he wanted and everybody just set
it up.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, was Detective Harrison or Blackie Harrison, was he
present when Jones gave these instructions?
Mr. McMILLON. I am sure that he was. I don’t know if he was or not.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And how about Detective L. D. Miller, was he present at
that time?
Mr. McMILLON. I don’t know at what point Miller had got there. I am
sure that he was, because Miller had taken up the position. When we set
up, Miller had taken up the position on my right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain--well, let me ask you this: After
Jones finished giving instructions, where did you go?
Mr. McMILLON. I was there in that area, and I took my position outside
of the jail office door there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you immediately take up the position that you had when
Oswald was shot or did you move around?
Mr. McMILLON. No; I believe I had a different position there for a
minute, and I saw that the space over here needed another officer in
it, so I got over there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain in that position before Oswald
came down?
Mr. McMILLON. It seemed to me like about 10 minutes. I am not sure of
the time. It was possibly somewhere in that neighborhood.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, was Detective Miller in his position when
you came--when you took your position, took up your position?
Mr. McMILLON. I don’t recall if he was already in position or if he
moved in after I did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How much of the time that you were in your position would
be your best estimate that Miller was also there?
Mr. McMILLON. Five to 10 minutes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Miller leave that position at any time?
Mr. McMILLON. If he did, I don’t remember it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, Miller was on your right, is that correct?
Mr. McMILLON. Uh-huh.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, would you--I am going to mark this map first of all.
This is a diagram of the jail basement area, and I am going to write on
here, “Dallas, Texas, Detective T. D. McMillon, 3-27-64, Exhibit 5016.”
Now, let me see if we can get a place where you can--let me clear this
off. Now, would you take this and take that pencil and would you mark
on there where you were standing when you took up what you call your
position?
Mr. McMILLON. These are the swinging doors that we come out of, right?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; they are.
Mr. McMILLON. Right along in here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Would you write out in here, put an arrow or
something and put your name?
Mr. McMILLON. The full name or just the initials?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Just something. The “T. D.” That is all right. Now, would
you put down where Miller was standing?
Mr. McMILLON. Right along in here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You want to do something to mark that that is Miller?
Mr. McMILLON. Okay.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay; was there anybody on your left?
Mr. McMILLON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was that?
Mr. McMILLON. I believe it was Detective Watson.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.
Mr. McMILLON. Right along in here somewhere.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How is it that you--you seem to have a better recollection
of Miller than Watson, is that correct?
Mr. McMILLON. There was some more people down this line. I believe I
talked to Miller--I don’t know what we talked about--just prior to the
shooting. I know that Watson was along there and “Blackie” Harrison,
was along over this way.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This is the position, say, 10 minutes before Oswald was
brought down, is that right, 5 or 10 minutes before?
Mr. McMILLON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Did you see Rio Pierce or Sam Pierce’s car pull
out?
Mr. McMILLON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you see anybody get out of the car?
Mr. McMILLON. Yes; seemed to me like a sergeant got out of that car.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see anybody attempt to clear away the crowd?
Mr. McMILLON. I believe that is what this sergeant was doing.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as you looked over there at the car, how many lines
deep, if there was more than one line, were the news people across the
Main Street ramp?
Mr. McMILLON. I don’t know. Those people were right along in this area
along in here.