Mr. LEAVELLE. Brought him down, and I remained with him, or in the
office from then on up until the actual transfer took place.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, during that period, was there interviewing going on
only 15 minutes?
Mr. LEAVELLE. Well, I made a note here, “at 9:30,” but I could be in
error on that time. They may have talked--I am sure that my note is in
error here. It would probably be between 10:30 and 11, probably an
hour off of that. However, there is a transfer sign out which would
show the correct time.
Mr. HUBERT. That is what you call a--“tempo”?
Mr. LEAVELLE. The “tempo,” yes, which shows the correct time.
Mr. HUBERT. Anyway, you were with Oswald at all times from the time of
the “tempo,” until he was actually shot?
Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And any interviewing that happened in that period you were
present at?
Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. So that you want to modify Exhibit 5089, in the sentence
that I read in that respect?
Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Jack Ruby, sir?
Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes, I had known him. I have--I had previously stated I
met him back in 1951, or thereabouts, when I was working the area that
his Silver Spur was located in on South Ervay, and became acquainted
with him.
Mr. HUBERT. I understand that some time in 1963, you received an
anonymous call that there was going to be a hijacking of his club. What
does that mean, a “hijacking”?
Mr. LEAVELLE. That means that someone is going to use a pistol and take
the money from the cashier, or whoever had custody of it.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, a robbery, or burglary?
Mr. LEAVELLE. Armed robbery is what it amounts to.
Mr. HUBERT. So, in order to guard against that, you and a fellow
officer went down to----
Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Down to the club and stayed there watching for it?
Mr. LEAVELLE. We stayed there until closing time. I think they stopped
the people from coming in, I believe.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not tell Ruby what was going on?
Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; we told--of course, Ruby was not there. This was the
Carousel Club on Oak Lawn, which was operated by his sister, Eva Grant,
and we told her what the situation was, and she gave us a--use of a
booth near the door where we could get there in the booth and observe
anyone coming in or out.
Mr. HUBERT. That was the Vegas Club on Ervay?
Mr. LEAVELLE. No, sir; on Oak Lawn. That is the Carousel on Commerce
Street.
Mr. HUBERT. The Silver Spur?
Mr. LEAVELLE. The Silver Spur, it has long since been out of existence.
Mr. HUBERT. So, you told his sister what the situation was?
Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And Ruby came in later?
Mr. LEAVELLE. He came in just about closing time, and she probably had
called him, because he already knew that we were out here. Of course,
I just am assuming she had probably already called him. He didn’t seem
particular perturbed about it at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you recognize Ruby right away when he came out of the
crowd?
Mr. LEAVELLE. I recognized him as someone that I knew, but I was unable
to call his name.
Mr. HUBERT. Just describe in your own words how the whole thing
happened, what you saw from the time you left the jail door?
Mr. LEAVELLE. From the time we left the jail door?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; push it back a little further. From the time you left
the jail cell.
Mr. LEAVELLE. All right, when we left the jail cell, we proceeded
down to the booking desk there, up to the door leading out into the
basement, and I purposely told Mr. Graves to hold it a minute while
Captain Fritz checked the area outside. I don’t know why I did that,
because we had not made any plans to do so, but I said, “Let’s hold it
a minute and let him see if everything is in order.” Because we had
been given to understand that the car would be across the passageway.
Mr. HUBERT. Of the jail corridor?
Mr. LEAVELLE. And that--and we would have nothing to do but walk
straight from the door, approximately 13 or 14 feet to the car and then
Captain Fritz--when we asked him to give us the high sign on it he
said, “Everything is all set.”
Mr. HUBERT. Did you notice what time it was?
Mr. LEAVELLE. No; I did not. That is the only error that I can see.
The captain should have known that the car was not in the position it
should be, and I was surprised when I walked to the door and the car
was not in the spot it should have been, but I could see it was in
back, and backing into position, but had it been in position where we
were told it would be, that would have eliminated a lot of the area
in which anyone would have access to him, because it would have been
blocked by the car. In fact, if the car had been sitting where we were
told it was going to be, see--it would have been sitting directly upon
the spot where Ruby was standing when he fired the shot.
Mr. HUBERT. Of course, in that case the television cameras would have
been blocked out?
Mr. LEAVELLE. That’s true.
Mr. HUBERT. The car was not pulled back because pulling it back would
block the----
Mr. LEAVELLE. That, I don’t know. Of course, you are--according to
one of my previous reports I earlier suggested to Captain Fritz that
we make the suggestion to the chief that we take him out to the first
floor and put him out at Main Street to a car and proceed to the county
jail that way and leave them waiting in the basement and on Commerce
Street, and we could be to the county jail before anyone knew what was
taking place.
Mr. HUBERT. What time did you make that suggestion, sir?
Mr. LEAVELLE. That was either just before or just after--probably just
after I had gone there and got Oswald and we were talking about the
transfer.
Mr. HUBERT. Who did you make that suggestion to?
Mr. LEAVELLE. I made it to Captain Fritz.
Mr. HUBERT. What answer did you receive from him?
Mr. LEAVELLE. Said he didn’t think the chief would go for it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he say why?
Mr. LEAVELLE. Because, he said, the chief had given his word to the
press that they would transfer him at a time when they could make
pictures.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you convey that same idea to the chief, himself, or to
anyone other than Fritz?
Mr. LEAVELLE. Other than to Mr. Beck and Brown, Mr. Clardy that was
there--Mr. Graves rather. They probably heard me make the suggestion.
In fact, Mr. Beck made the suggestion at the same time that we could--I
know that he was there, because he made the suggestion at the time,
same time, said well, that we could either--instead of going out the
Commerce Street, in front of all the people lined up, go out the
basement in the opposite direction.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean even if you are going to use the basement, use the
Main Street instead of Commerce Street?
Mr. LEAVELLE. That’s right; and he made that suggestion. Of course,
Chief Curry had already given his word to the newsmen that they would
transfer him and let them get the pictures, and I have just assumed
since that the reason that the car wasn’t in position like it was
supposed to be was so that they could get the pictures, and the reason
for not holding to the schedule previously outlined.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you spoken to the chief about that since?
Mr. LEAVELLE. No; I have not.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you spoken to anybody about it, sir?
Mr. LEAVELLE. No; I haven’t spoke to anyone other than possibly just
some of the officers making a remark, “If he had used my suggestion,
that we would probably have made it.”
Mr. HUBERT. You said that you had reported making that suggestion in
one of the reports that you made?
Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; I think it is in this one right here, I believe.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you have a copy of that?
Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes--that is another one.
Mr. HUBERT. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, you have made reference to another report
which appears on page 63, Commission’s Document No. 81-A, entitled
“Investigation of the operational security involving the transfer of
Lee Harvey Oswald, November 24, 1963,” prepared by the Dallas Police
Department. I am not going to take that page 63, which is in two parts
of the bound Commission Document 81-A, but I am going to identify it
by marking on it, to-wit, as follows: “Dallas, Texas, March 25, 1964.
Exhibit 5090, deposition of J. R. Leavelle,” signing my name below that
endorsement, and placing my initial on the second page in the lower
right-hand corner. Who prepared this document, 5090?
Mr. LEAVELLE. I prepared it. It was typed by our secretary up here.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it signed by you?
Mr. LEAVELLE. No; it was not--well, wait a minute now. I believe there
was one copy which was, but probably the original that--now, this looks
like a mimeographed----
Mr. HUBERT. Mimeographed or photographed--one of those. Have you read
it?
Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes, sir; I have read it. In fact, here is a copy of it.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you have a copy in your possession right now?
Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it correct?
Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I notice the fourth paragraph on the first page, when
you state that you had suggested the transfer be via the first floor
of the Main Street door, and that is a recordation of that thought
made--when was this dictated?
Mr. LEAVELLE. When was this dictated?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. LEAVELLE. It was, what you might say, some 2 or 3 days after that,
after the shooting. I don’t recall the exact date.