Mr. TAWNEY. You are the city engineer of Ogdensburg?
Mr. TATE. Yes, sir.
Mr. TAWNEY. You have acted in that capacity how long?
Mr. TATE. For about 10 years.
Mr. TAWNEY. Does the city of Ogdensburg discharge its raw sewage into
the St. Lawrence River?
Mr. TATE. Most of it directly and some of it indirectly into the
Oswegatchie.
Mr. TAWNEY. You have no plant in which you first treat your sewage?
Mr. TATE. No, sir.
Mr. TAWNEY. What kind of a water plant have you?
Mr. TATE. A filtration plant.
Mr. TAWNEY. A sand filtration plant?
Mr. TATE. Yes, sir.
Mr. TAWNEY. Have you suffered in Ogdensburg in recent years in
consequence of the pollution of the water that you drew from the St.
Lawrence River?
Mr. IRVING. Mr. Commissioner, will you allow me to suggest that the
water board is in a much better position to give you information on
those points than the city engineer, as those matters are under the
separate and distinct management of the board?
Mr. TAWNEY. What cities are there on the St. Lawrence below
Ogdensburg?
Mr. TATE. I believe Montreal is the first large city below Ogdensburg.
Mr. TAWNEY. Are there any small cities or towns?
Mr. TATE. Yes; there are several. There is Edwardsburg, or Cardinal.
Mr. TAWNEY. How near is the nearest one to Ogdensburg?
Mr. TATE. About 8 miles. That is on the Canadian side of the river.
Then Waddington is 18 miles below. Morrisburg is nearly directly
opposite Waddington. Cornwall is farther down, about 40 miles.
Mr. POWELL. Mr. Tate, is Ogdensburg a difficult country in which to
cut trenches?
Mr. TATE. Not generally speaking; no. It is clay and sand. Of course
there are some streaks of hardpan here.
Mr. POWELL. There is much rock?
Mr. TATE. Well, there is on the west side.
Mr. POWELL. So it would be very expensive work to construct a series
of intercepting sewers to connect all the existing sewers, would it
not?
Mr. TATE. If we put in filtration plants, we would have to have two
plants, one on each side of the river.
Mr. POWELL. I am not speaking about your intake of water and the
filtration; I am speaking about connecting with the sewers.
Mr. TATE. Of course if you treat the sewage, you would have to have
two separate plants.
Mr. POWELL. Yes; but you would have only one place where the sewage
debauched into the river.
Mr. TATE. I think we would have to have two--one on the west and one
on the east side.
Mr. POWELL. Well, it would not be very expensive to make these
intercepting sewers, would it?
Mr. TATE. I rather think it would be quite expensive.
Mr. POWELL. There is nothing in the character of the soil that would
make it expensive.
Mr. TATE. No; there is nothing in the character of the soil that
would do so.
Mr. POWELL. How far from the edge of the river do your sewers
discharge?
Mr. TATE. Generally right at the face of the bank.
Mr. POWELL. Have you contemplated the making of sedimentation beds or
other means of purification of the sewage?
Mr. TATE. No, sir.
Mr. POWELL. You have never made any calculations in regard to that?
Mr. TATE. Our system is a combined one. We take in the sewage and all
surface flows.
Mr. POWELL. Does the insane asylum down here connect with your
sewerage system?
Mr. TATE. No, sir.
Mr. POWELL. Is their sewage thrown into the river in a raw state?
Mr. TATE. Yes, sir.
Prof. PHELPS. Could you intercept all the sewage without pumping, Mr.
Tate?
Mr. TATE. I hardly think we could. I think very likely we would have
to pump.
STATEMENT OF MR. GEORGE F. DARROW, PRESIDENT OF THE
WATER BOARD OF OGDENSBURG.
Mr. TAWNEY. Mr. Darrow, you are the president of the water
commissioners?
Mr. DARROW. Yes, sir.
Mr. TAWNEY. What have you to say in regard to the disposal of your
sewage in the city of Ogdensburg?
Mr. DARROW. Well, we have never suffered from any pollution of the
water supply, because we have filtered all of our water that has been
taken from the St. Lawrence. Our water supply up to four or five
years ago was the local river, the Oswegatchie, but we suffered from
typhoid there, and we changed over into the St. Lawrence and put in a
slow sand filtration plant. We have been almost completely free from
any typhoid or any other water-borne disease since then.
Mr. TAWNEY. Do you chlorinate your water?
Mr. DARROW. No; we never have, except at one time, when we had a
little break in our intake pipe.
Mr. TAWNEY. You discharge all your sewage directly into the river, do
you?
Mr. DARROW. Yes, sir. The intake pipe is above the city and there is
nothing that would cause contamination nearer than the village of
Morristown, which is 12 miles away on this side of the river.
Mr. TAWNEY. How is it with respect to the towns below you?
Mr. DARROW. The State hospital formerly got their water supply from
the St. Lawrence, and they suffered so severely from typhoid, owing
to the pollution by the city, that they changed their water supply to
the city supply.
Mr. TAWNEY. How far is the hospital from the city of Ogdensburg?
Mr. DARROW. It is a part of the city of Ogdensburg, but it is
probably 2 or 3 miles below the center of the city.
Mr. TAWNEY. How many people are there in that institution?
Mr. DARROW. Two thousand, or a little over.
Mr. TAWNEY. What is the width of the St. Lawrence River here in this
vicinity?
Mr. DARROW. It is about a mile and a quarter.
Mr. POWELL. Do you have daily examinations of the water in order to
ascertain its purity?
Mr. DARROW. Yes; our superintendent can give you all details as to
that.
Mr. POWELL. It is practically free from bacteria?
Mr. DARROW. Yes; practically so.
Mr. TAWNEY. What supervision is exercised by the State board of
health over your water supply and the health conditions?
Mr. DARROW. It was put in entirely under their supervision and
protection, and the health officer takes samples of water from the
taps throughout the city at any place he desires, and those samples
are submitted to test at Albany.
Mr. TAWNEY. Does the State board of health have any voice in the
management or supervision of your plant?
Mr. DARROW. I can not say as to that. There has never been any
interference on their part.
Mr. TAWNEY. Do you make reports to the State board of health with
respect to the purification of your water?
Mr. DARROW. No, sir. I understand, however, that if the plant goes
wrong they have the power to come in and see that matters are
corrected.
Mr. TAWNEY. In other words, they have the power to lock the stable
after the horse is stolen?
Mr. POWELL. You supply the material for the test and the State makes
the test?
Mr. DARROW. We have our own laboratory that makes its own tests, and
then the State board of health supplements those tests from time to
time.
Mr. POWELL. They take their own samples?
Mr. DARROW. Yes, sir.
Mr. TAWNEY. Is there any State law in New York with respect to the
discharge of raw sewage into rivers or running streams that you know
of?
Mr. DARROW. Not that I am aware of.
Mr. TAWNEY. So every city or village or town is free to utilize the
St. Lawrence River, or any other river on which it may be located, as
an open sewer?
Mr. DARROW. That seems to be the case; at least, they practice it.
I know that where shallow streams have been used and it has been
a palpable nuisance that they have applied for injunctions and
restraining orders on account of its being a nuisance.
Mr. TAWNEY. What is your opinion with respect to the wisdom of
utilizing these running streams as open sewers? Do you think cities
of some considerable size should be prohibited from discharging raw
sewage into streams where cities below are dependent upon the same
stream for their water for domestic and sanitary uses?
Mr. DARROW. I think they should be prohibited from doing so. I think
that all pollution of all streams should be prohibited. I think that
it is not only a menace to the public health, but it is a great
economic loss.
Mr. TAWNEY. That is the judgment of all the sanitary experts
and engineers that we have had before us throughout this entire
investigation, and I am very glad to know that you corroborate their
views.
Mr. POWELL. You are opposed to depositing raw sewage into a stream
entirely?
Mr. DARROW. I certainly am. Of course, I think it is an evil that has
got to be overcome slowly.
Mr. TAWNEY. Yes; but ultimately it will have to come.
Mr. DARROW. Ultimately it will have to come; yes.
Mr. MIGNAULT. Then, your opinion is that cities should be forced to
treat their sewage?
Mr. DARROW. Just as speedily as it can be accomplished. I think it is
on a par with garbage collection; that it should be done, and that
eventually cities will find that it is a source of income instead of
a source of expense.
Mr. GARDNER. Is there any other gentleman from Ogdensburg who wishes
to be heard now, or who has anything to offer on the subject?
(There was no response.)
Mr. GARDNER. If not, we will proceed to hear the representatives of
the next town who appear before us.
(There was no response.)
Mr. TAWNEY. Is there anyone else from any other city or town on the
St. Lawrence in this vicinity who desires to be heard on this subject?
(There was no response.)
Mr. TAWNEY. Dr. McCullough, have you or Mr. Dallyn anything to offer
with respect to this St. Lawrence district?
Dr. MCCULLOUGH. For my own part, I do not think so. I think all we
have to say about it is set out in the report.
Mr. TAWNEY. You are the head of the health service in the Province of
Ontario?
Dr. MCCULLOUGH. Yes, sir.
Mr. TAWNEY. I want these gentlemen present to know that you are the
head of the health service in the Province of Ontario, and that Mr.
Dallyn is the sanitary engineer of the Province.
Mr. DARROW. I think something ought to be done with the State of New
York, because all of these plans for sewerage in the boundary waters
are approved by the State of New York. The institutions owned by the
State of New York are running their sewage into the boundary waters.
Mr. TAWNEY. The State boards of health, I think all of them, have
been very cordially in sympathy with the investigation into this
matter which the commission has been conducting for the last three
years, and I do not apprehend that any recommendations that the
commission may finally make to the two Governments, with respect to
it, will be opposed by the State, judging from the expressions we
have had from them. If there is nothing further, the hearing will be
considered closed, and the commission will go into executive session
for the purpose of considering some other matters that we intend to
take up at this time.
(The commission then went into executive session and the hearing
adjourned.)