Mr. GARDNER. What is your position at Thousand Island Park, Dr.
Goodale?
Dr. GOODALE. I am the secretary of the association and health
officer. I have held those positions for several years. We received a
notice from this commission from Washington to appear here. However,
we have nothing to ask of you.
Mr. GARDNER. What are your particular duties as health officer?
Dr. GOODALE. I have had charge of putting down all the sewers,
looking after our water, getting rid of our closets, and running them
by water instead of having outdoor closets.
Mr. GARDNER. Have you a system of sewage disposal there?
Dr. GOODALE. We have.
Mr. GARDNER. What is your outlet?
Dr. GOODALE. Our outlet is the St. Lawrence River. We have a sewer
that runs through the center of the park to the river. Then each
street has a sewer that runs into the main sewer, and through that
into the river below where we take our water.
Mr. GARDNER. What is your permanent population?
Dr. GOODALE. We haven’t any. I suppose there are a dozen families
living there; not over that.
Mr. GARDNER. What is the population during the vacation season?
Dr. GOODALE. We have a transient population there of about 10,000
tourists. They are there from the 1st of July until about the middle
of September.
Mr. GARDNER. That would include those arriving and departing day by
day?
Dr. GOODALE. Yes, sir; but we have about 500 cottages. About 105
cottages and our principal hotel and stores were burned about two
years ago. They were owned by the association.
Mr. GARDNER. How near the boundary line is Thousand Island Park?
Dr. GOODALE. It is about 6 miles across, and we are about in the
center.
Mr. GARDNER. About how far is the border of the island from what you
might term the ship canal--the channel where the navigation goes up
and down the river?
Dr. GOODALE. About half a mile. The main channel, I think, is on the
American side.
Mr. GARDNER. Where is the outlet of your sewers with respect to that
ship channel?
Dr. GOODALE. It goes out pretty near the channel.
Mr. GARDNER. You do not treat your sewage at all, do you?
Dr. GOODALE. No, sir. If I may be allowed to say it without being
asked, I would state that we have the healthiest people that I
know of anywhere around. We have no typhoid fever; we have no
diphtheria, scarlet fever, or any of the contagious diseases. We are
now suffering under the misfortune of having to quarantine people in
order to keep out infantile paralysis from New York and other places
south of us.
Mr. GARDNER. Do you think you contribute anything to the good health
of those farther down the river?
Dr. GOODALE. No, sir; I do not think we do; that is, nothing except
in the way of pure water.
Mr. GARDNER. You think you have the advantage of them in obtaining
pure water.
Dr. GOODALE. Well, we have the same advantage that Detroit and
Niagara Falls and those places above us have of us. We take their
pollution, if there is any.
Mr. GARDNER. The two cases are hardly parallel. You are right at the
mouth of a big lake.
Dr. GOODALE. Well, virtually we are. I think where the big lakes
empty in is up about Cape Vincent and Kingston.
Mr. GARDNER. As a matter of fact, before getting up into the lake the
only town above you of any considerable size that sends sewage down
to you is Clayton, is it not?
Dr. GOODALE. Clayton and Cape Vincent.
Mr. GARDNER. Have you ever considered any plans or schemes for
purification of sewage?
Dr. GOODALE. We have had schemes suggested to us with which I am
not familiar that we have considered not to be feasible, on account
of our being situated in such a way that the water goes in both
directions at Thousand Island Park. Part of it goes into the Canadian
channel and part into the American channel. We have considered
schemes of treating the sewage there, and it has always been so
expensive that we could not afford to do it if it had been desirable.
Mr. GARDNER. That, then, has been the only reason why you have not
formulated plans for the purification of sewage, the matter of
expense?
Dr. GOODALE. The matter of expense and the fact that we have not
considered that it was necessary so far as we are concerned.
Mr. GARDNER. But you have recognized it as a pending evil?
Dr. GOODALE. Yes, sir; we have not dodged that. It is an evil that
has got to be done away with. However, we have not suffered with it
at all. We have about 15 or 20 very good wells from which we obtain
drinking water.
Mr. GARDNER. Are they artesian wells?
Dr. GOODALE. No, sir; we pump the water, and sometimes a hundred
families get water from one well.
Mr. GARDNER. You do that, I suppose, because you think you get better
water from your wells than you do from the river?
Dr. GOODALE. Well, many have had typhoid fever in Clayton and many of
the residents there have felt afraid to use the St. Lawrence River
water. But I do not think it is very bad. I talked with some boatmen
coming down on the _Island Belle_. They have been running the _Island
Belle_ for 20 years. They say they do not want any better water.
I asked them where they got their water, whether they got it at
Clayton or Thousand Island Park, and they said no; that they got it
out in the center of the stream.
Mr. GARDNER. You have quite a good deal of navigation going to and
from the island?
Dr. GOODALE. Yes, sir; there are a great many boats landing there
every day.
Mr. POWELL. Have you any idea of how much of a floating population
there is in the whole region, the mainland and the islands?
Dr. GOODALE. Well, it would be a guess. Do you mean during the summer
while the tourists are there?
Mr. POWELL. Yes.
Dr. GOODALE. I should think 50,000.
Mr. POWELL. I was there before the big hotel was burned and on that
one island alone for a week or so they had a population of over
10,000.
Dr. GOODALE. At Thousand Island Park we have a population of nearly
10,000 at this minute.
Mr. POWELL. You think a fair estimate of the total population would
be 50,000?
Dr. GOODALE. Yes, sir. Of course, it is all guesswork. I have no
means of knowing.
Mr. POWELL. You never took a poll or made a census?
Dr. GOODALE. No; I have been looking after sewers and sick people.
Mr. POWELL. What do you do with the excreta or raw sewage?
Dr. GOODALE. Do you mean our garbage?
Mr. POWELL. No; the excreta from the inhabitants.
Dr. GOODALE. From the water-closets or toilets?
Mr. POWELL. Yes.
Dr. GOODALE. We dump it into the river. It goes down through the main
sewer.
Mr. POWELL. Do you burn your garbage?
Dr. GOODALE. Yes, sir.
Mr. POWELL. You burn the least nocuous?
Dr. GOODALE. Well, we could not very well burn the sewage. We burn
the garbage; that is, it is emptied every day. We have a man remove
it every day. It is taken away and each cottage pays a certain amount
for its removal. We have nothing at Thousand Island Park to breed
disease but what we dispose of.
I have no apology to make for anything that we do that injures our
neighbors, because we really have not been looking out for that. We
would be very glad to if we were able. The last fire we had damaged
us about $250,000 to $300,000, so you will realize that we have not
much money to spare. We have the healthiest place that I know of
anywhere in the United States or Canada. Thousand Island Park is
really an international park. We have a tabernacle in which we can
seat about 3,000 people. We would be very glad to cooperate with this
commission, or with anybody else, for the benefit of the St. Lawrence
River, but we are too poor to do it just now. I did not come here
to ask for anything, but to simply state to you that we are doing
everything we can for the protection of the health of the people who
visit us and of the people who go up and down the river. I would like
to ask whether or not this commission is appointed from Washington?
Mr. GARDNER. It is appointed by both Governments. The commission
was brought into existence by treaty between Great Britain and the
United States, and, among other things, they agreed in that treaty
that they would not permit the pollution of the boundary waters
to the injury of property or health on either side. Now, the two
Governments referred the question to this commission to ascertain
whether or not the terms of the treaty were being violated, and if
the waters were being polluted in contravention of the treaty. The
commission put bacteriologists at work, and they have demonstrated
beyond any question that the waters are being grossly polluted in
places in violation of the treaty. The Governments then asked this
commission to determine the remedy. That is what the commission is at
work upon at the present time, to devise a remedy for this wholesale
pollution that has been going on indiscriminately all up and down
the boundary waters. The fact that any one community has been able
to get pure water and avoid sickness does not change the matter at
all; if they are dumping their sewage into the boundary water it is
the duty of this commission to ascertain the facts and report them
to the Governments. If the Governments accept the remedies that the
commission finally submits to them for adoption there will not, I
apprehend, be any discrimination between communities; they will all
be treated alike.
Dr. GOODALE. As I understand it this commission has nothing to
consider in regard to the purity or impurity of the St. Lawrence
River.
Mr. GARDNER. Yes; the commission have to determine whether or not the
waters are being polluted in contravention of the treaty; and, if so,
what is the remedy. But the two countries have agreed that the waters
shall not be polluted to the injury of health or property on the
other side.
Dr. GOODALE. Well, what are they going to do if it is?
Mr. GARDNER. Well, we are ascertaining the facts now. We are trying
to get at the actual conditions, and when we submit our report to the
Governments it is for them to devise the administrative part of it.
These two great Governments have joined in this movement, and I do
not think there is any question but that they will be able to put a
stop to what they regard as an unwarranted abuse.
Mr. KING. Mr. Chairman, I came here on instructions from the Dominion
Marine Association and with no intention of saying anything unless
called upon. I have an opportunity of going home on the 4 o’clock
boat, which I would take if I had any assurance that the question of
the steamers is not coming any more definitely before the commission
than it has to-day.
Mr. GARDNER. The commission held a hearing in Detroit for the special
purpose of hearing the navigation interests, and they appeared there.
If you have anything to say we shall be glad to hear it.
Mr. KING. I am not pressing for the opportunity, but I wish to
furnish the commission any information that they wish to obtain with
regard to the boats, and I did not like to leave without asking the
commission if they desired to ask any questions.
Mr. GARDNER. So far as my recollection goes the representatives of
the navigation interests were very ready at the Detroit meeting to
adopt any methods or remedies that proved to be reliable and safe. So
far as that feature of it is concerned we have regarded the matter as
closed. We are in perfect accord with them and they with us.
Mr. KING. I understood from Prof. Phelps that the test is now being
made on the Lakes.
Mr. GARDNER. It is, and in case there is any weakness I apprehend it
will be remedied.
Mr. KING. I hope you will call upon us at any time you need
information or assistance.
Mr. GARDNER. Mr. Irving, the commission is now ready to hear the
representatives of the city of Ogdensburg.
STATEMENT OF MR. ANDREW IRVING, CHAIRMAN OF THE BOARD
OF PUBLIC WORKS OF OGDENSBURG, N. Y.
Mr. IRVING. Mr. Chairman, the mayor of Ogdensburg was called away,
and will not be back again until after the first of the month. The
board of public works is represented, as is also the board of water
commissioners. I am president of the board of public works and Mr.
Darrow is president of the board of water commissioners. We are
prepared to give you any information that you may desire with regard
to the sewerage and water here. The city engineer is also present, as
well as the superintendent of the waterworks.
Mr. GARDNER. Are you prepared to go on now?
Mr. IRVING. Yes; I would be glad to do so.
Mr. GARDNER. As president of the board of public works all the public
utilities come under your supervision, do they?
Mr. IRVING. We have nothing to do with the water board. That is
a separate and distinct commission. Mr. Darrow represents that
commission. We have charge of the sewers, the building of the sewers,
and the building of the streets and public works.
Mr. MAGRATH. What is the population of Ogdensburg?
Mr. IRVING. About 18,000; that is, including the inmates of the State
hospitals.
Mr. POWELL. You simply do the work of constructing the sewers and
the manner and time of such construction is determined by the State
authorities?
Mr. IRVING. Yes, sir. I might more fully answer your question by
explaining our sewerage system. In 1872 Col. George E. Waring, jr.,
was employed by the city of Ogdensburg to make a report upon a system
of sewers, which he did. He also presented plans and gave a report as
to the best method of sewering the city. Practically all sewers that
have been built since that time have been built on what is called
the Waring plan. The law provides that a sewer can not be built
unless plans are submitted to the two State commissions, the State
board of health and the State conservation commission. They have to
approve the plans before the sewers are built. After those plans are
adopted and approved by the two different commissions, then our board
constructs the sewers. That, of course, is obligatory on the part of
the city corporation.
Mr. GARDNER. That same condition applies all over the State?
Mr. IRVING. I believe it does. It certainly does so far as we are
concerned. It applies to all cities of our class, at any rate. We are
a city of the third class.
Mr. GARDNER. You discharge your raw sewage into the St. Lawrence
River?
Mr. IRVING. It all gets in there ultimately.
Mr. GARDNER. Have you ever considered any plans for its purification
and sterilization?
Mr. IRVING. Practically we have not; no, sir. We have in a sort of
a desultory way spoken about it, because we can appreciate what a
necessary thing it would be, but we have never seriously considered
any plan.
Mr. POWELL. Have the State authorities ever urged any plan upon you?
Mr. IRVING. No. Of course there is a general proposition always
floating about by the State authorities that the best way would be
a sewage-disposal plant of some kind, but it has never been brought
absolutely before us in concrete form. There has never been any
mandate issued that we should do that. As a matter of fact, within
the last year consent has been given to us to still empty the large
sewer into what is practically the St. Lawrence River.
Mr. GARDNER. What is the assessed valuation of the city?
Mr. IRVING. I think it is about $6,000,000.
Mr. POWELL. What is the population?
Mr. IRVING. We consider it to be 18,000 people. That includes the
State institution down here.
Mr. MAGRATH. Have you any complaint to make against the Canadian
municipalities in the matter of pollution?
Mr. IRVING. No; we are all in the same boat.
Mr. MIGNAULT. Have you actually made any studies with regard to a
sewage purification plant?
Mr. IRVING. We never have. It has never been contemplated. It is one
of those questions that I presume we felt was a bridge that would
have to be crossed some time.
Mr. MAGRATH. How is your sewerage system situated with regard to a
purification plant? Have you one outlet or several?
Mr. IRVING. We have about 15 outlets altogether.
Mr. MIGNAULT. It would be necessary to have an interceptor?
Mr. IRVING. I may say that while Col. Waring suggested that at some
time some different system of disposal would be necessary, he did not
provide in the plan for any connection. You see we are lying right
along the front of the St. Lawrence, and our outlets reach from up at
one end of the city down to the other.
Mr. MIGNAULT. Where is your waterworks intake?
Mr. IRVING. The intake is well up above any local sewage. The water
commissioners will explain all that to you and give you some valuable
information regarding the contamination that they discovered when
they put in the intake.
Mr. MIGNAULT. You have no idea, have you, as to what it would cost to
install a purification plant?
Mr. IRVING. I have not the slightest idea. While Mr. Paterson was
telling you what could be done I was interested in reading a few
remarks that were made by Col. Waring in 1872, when he suggested our
sewerage system. He said:
Many of the objections that hold against the system of
water sewerage in most towns are inoperative in Ogdensburg.
Not only can the whole city (except a small district near
the river) be completely drained by natural fall, but the
foul drainage will flow directly into a river that will
carry it at once away--a river so large that there is no
danger of action ever being taken by cities farther down
the stream to prevent the contamination of the water.
Indeed the only considerable objection that I can think
of against carrying out a properly executed system of
sewerage in Ogdensburg is the one item of its wastefulness.
Properly deodorized and applied to good agricultural land,
the night soil of a town of 10,000 inhabitants would be
worth at least $50,000 annually. This shows that the item
of wastefulness is worthy of the consideration of all
thoughtful persons, and there is no doubt that at some not
very distant day its force will be realized and the wasting
of sewage will be stopped.
Mr. MIGNAULT. What is the name of this local river that enters here?
Mr. IRVING. The Oswegatchie.
Mr. MIGNAULT. What is your indebtedness?
Mr. IRVING. In 1914 it was $515,000, including the water board debt.
The water board debt at that time was $68,250. In computing the
bonded indebtedness of a town the water bonds are always excluded.
Mr. MIGNAULT. Has there been any material change since then in your
financial situation?
Mr. IRVING. I presume that the issues would be about at a standoff.
There have been some few small local bonds issued.
Mr. POWELL. Does your water system pay its way?
Mr. IRVING. These other gentlemen present can tell you about that.
Mr. GARDNER. What is your tax rate?
Mr. IRVING. One dollar and ninety-eight cents this year. That does
not include our town tax; that is just the municipal tax.
Mr. GARDNER. Do you have a State tax in New York?
Mr. IRVING. Yes, sir.
Mr. POWELL. Do you tax real property, personal property, and income?
Mr. IRVING. Not income.
Mr. POWELL. That is exempted?
Mr. IRVING. We tax personal property and real estate. Of course,
there is a national income tax.
Mr. GARDNER. Do you have a county tax?
Mr. IRVING. Yes; this $1.98 tax includes school and municipal taxes.
Then we also have what is called a county tax.
Is there anything else in the way of information that I can give you
about this matter? We have our sewer plans here, but I do not suppose
they would interest you. The fact is that what sewage we have we
empty into the St. Lawrence River.
Mr. GARDNER. You are not an engineer, are you?
Mr. IRVING. No, sir.
Mr. GARDNER. Is your engineer present?
Mr. IRVING. Yes, sir. Would you like to have some information from
him?
Mr. GARDNER. Just a few questions bearing upon the sewage.
Mr. MIGNAULT. Did you state what distance from the shore the
different outlets are?
Mr. IRVING. Do you mean where they are situated?
Mr. MIGNAULT. Yes.
Mr. IRVING. No. We have the plans here. Part of them go into the
Oswegatchie River, which empties into the St. Lawrence, but the
others are at different places along the shore; all under the
permission given to us by the two State boards and all practically
following this particular plan.
Mr. MAGRATH. You do not contemplate installing any water-purification
plant?
Mr. IRVING. Yes; we have a splendid one which the board of water
commissioners would be glad to tell you about. They are very proud of
it.