Capt. NORTON. I have had the honor of appearing before you several
times in this matter, and at the earlier hearings I believe that you
asked the city of Buffalo if we had any plan to suggest at that time,
and, as city engineer, I said to you that I thought the ordinary
procedure would be for you to hear the outline of such results as you
expected should be accomplished, and I believe that was the opinion
and advice of your sanitary consulting engineer--that the commission
should outline a tentative policy and submit such to the city, and
I am very much pleased that that has been done in the excellent way
in which it has been done. In speaking of the plan itself as worked
out in detail by Mr. Tolles and Prof. Phelps and your commission,
the general plan for Buffalo for the collection of its sewage has
followed the idea which the city has had as the probable solution,
accepting the suggestion of your Mr. Tolles, which looks very
reasonable--that we divert certain of our sewage from the easterly
side of the city to the southern outlet instead of our middle outlet
in Niagara River. That is a matter which can only be determined, as
to its extent and advisability by making detailed plans both ways.
That is a matter which will require careful engineering estimate. I
believe Mr. Tolles has gone through that to some extent, but I do not
think to the extent of the estimate of the parallel construction.
That, then, would bring us down to the question of the extent of
treatment, if such is to be undertaken. The suggestion which I have
made heretofore was somewhat in parallel with what Mr. Carr has
suggested, that there is one limiting condition of pollution in the
Niagara River which, I believe, is not thoroughly covered by the
examination of the experts as to the condition of pollution, and that
was whether or not the pollution from surface drainage at times did
not materially exceed the proposed limitation, that the conditions
here at times make this river less desirable by reason of surface
pollution; then we have a limiting factor in there which we have not
met in the tentative plans proposed by the consulting engineers, and
I think it should be given consideration in this study; that is, that
you have at times conditions from surface drainage pollution which
will exceed the limitation set up by sanitary engineers as one to be
worked to in treatment of it. I think the engineers will agree that
if you have that condition existing 10 or 15 days a year, which is
detrimental to the citizens, it is not the average condition, but
should be given consideration.
Mr. GARDNER. Is there any material increase in the sources of
pollution?
Capt. NORTON. It would be in keeping with the normal population of
the community. It is different here and on the other side of the
river. I believe the normal rate of increase of pollution over there
is not as great as that of the cities. The extent of this treatment
as recommended, I would say, would be rather more than I would
have in mind for the city of Buffalo as being a solution of the
problem, for this reason, that the report of the sanitary expert,
which established a condition of water which might not impose an
undue burden on the water-filtration plant, is based on the average
pollution of the entire cross-section, and I should think that was
a very reasonable solution for the smaller stream, but the question
comes with the larger stream, where we can get a thread of water
which is materially less polluted than the average, as to whether
that should be given material consideration in a stream as large as
this; that, instead of putting our basis of 500 B. coli per cubic
centimeter over the whole cross section of the river, whether we
should not take that for the whole section of the river, which is
liable to furnish variable water to the various municipalities along
the stream, allowing for all contingencies in the way of change of
currents at various times. These are broad problems which can only
be settled by the highest advice, and it would be well for the city
to have that advice and go over these two or three different points
before accepting in toto that extent to which the clarification or
purification should be considered.
Mr. GARDNER. That is what the commission did. They advocated the
employment of the best sanitary engineers.
Mr. TAWNEY. Besides the plan you have been speaking of, what would
you say as to whether or not the commission would be justified in
recommending to the two Governments that no raw sewage be deposited
in any of the boundary waters?
Capt. NORTON. I believe that principle is correct, and that there
should be some sewage treatment.
Mr. TAWNEY. You do not think these international waters should be
used for discharging raw sewage from the cities bordering on them?
Capt. NORTON. No; I do not; and that is the consensus of sanitary
opinion at the present time--that such a thing should not be allowed.
With regard to Mr. Perkins’s suggestion as to furnishing the water
supply along the Niagara frontier, I have a reference to my first
suggestion which I made to you when the matter was first submitted to
the city, which you will find in the hearings of the International
Joint Commission, in the document of 1915, on pages 41, 43, et seq.,
when that matter was discussed on behalf of the city as a possible
solution. I am not in a position to speak as to whether the city of
Buffalo would want to insist on that as a solution. It is one of the
probable and reasonable solutions of the whole problem, but I suppose
we are dependent upon your action in covering the conditions as they
exist at large along the waterways. You must make some reasonable
recommendation that will cover the whole situation, and if you do
that what your attitude would be in regard to making an exception
here would be an open question. There are many problems here, and I
do not think the city has had a chance to give it detailed study.
If they wish to go into this and arrive at a reasonable solution it
might be well for the city to have some expert advice and go over the
matters in detail.
Mr. TAWNEY. Has the city of Buffalo in the last year been making any
study of this problem independent of the study made by the sanitary
engineers of the commission?
Capt. NORTON. No, sir.
Mr. TAWNEY. I did not know whether Buffalo had or not.
Capt. NORTON. No.
Mr. TAWNEY. Do you think the city council or commission, whichever it
is, will act upon your advice and take steps to obtain expert advice
with respect to the modification which you suggested in regard to the
plan proposed by our sanitary engineers?
Capt. NORTON. I think the council can answer better themselves.
STATEMENT OF MR. CHARLES B. HILL, COMMISSIONER OF
FINANCE AND COUNCILMAN, OF BUFFALO.
Mr. HILL. I might take the liberty of speaking for the new council
in that regard, and in answer I would say that we have a very high
regard for our engineering department, and I have no doubt the
council would follow the advice of the department in that respect.
Of course, I am not in a position to speak authoritatively as to the
policy of the new council.
Mr. TAWNEY. My reason for asking is this: We have had this matter
under consideration now for about three years, and if the city of
Buffalo contemplated in the near future taking up the study of the
problem along the line suggested by Capt. Norton, the commission
might hereafter delay final report until we had the judgment and
advice or the conclusions of your city. It is not the desire of the
commission to arbitrarily make recommendations without taking into
consideration the wishes and the desires of the various communities
affected. We want to give them a reasonable time.
Mr. HILL. I think the council feels that it is its duty to cooperate
in every way with this commission and to take this matter under
advisement in the way that Capt. Norton suggests. For myself--and I
am in the same position as the other commissioners--I may say we took
office only the 1st of January. This matter came to our attention
only when the notice came in, and we have had time but for one
informal discussion with the engineering department, so that, as a
representative body, we are unable at this time, as I feel, to do
justice to the matter at this hearing. I agree with the suggestion of
the commission, and I think that that is the disposition that ought
to be made of the matter, and give us time to take the matter up,
which we will do.
Mr. TAWNEY. Speaking for myself, we want the cooperation of the two
large cities on our side of the line in working out this problem,
so that when it is worked out and embodied in our recommendation it
will reasonably meet the approval of the people of these two great
municipalities; and in that case it would be comparatively easy
for the two Governments to follow the recommendations and make the
necessary provisions. In that case our work will not be futile,
otherwise it might go for naught. For that reason we want the
cooperation of both cities.
Mr. HILL. Absolutely right, and I take the liberty of speaking for
the council, and I say we are of a mind to give that cooperation, and
we will certainly do it.
Mr. GARDNER. Can you give us approximately the time you will require
to consider it?
Mr. HILL. You all know how such matters go.
Mr. POWELL. Or, rather, don’t go.
Mr. HILL. I can say the matter will not be neglected.
Mr. POWELL. Have you done anything since you got the report in the
way of considering the recommendations, or having them considered?
Mr. HILL. We had one meeting and one discussion with Capt. Norton
occupying over two hours, perhaps.
Mr. POWELL. Will you really take it up seriously?
Mr. HILL. We will, because we appreciate the situation.
Mr. POWELL. This thing has been hanging three years.