Mr. CLARDY. Where the circle is down across here [indicating].
Mr. HUBERT. You are describing with the pencil about four or five
people along the rail lining of the basement side of the rail, is that
correct?
Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir--no, sir; on the ramp side.
Mr. HUBERT. Ramp side, parking area side?
Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir; on the ramp side. Not the parking area side. On
the--this being the ramp here [indicating].
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. CLARDY. Coming off from Main.
Mr. HUBERT. I see what you mean, on the ramp side?
Mr. CLARDY. On the ramp side. There was a couple of uniformed officers
in this area. I am not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. McMillon was one of them, wasn't he?
Mr. CLARDY. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Oh, it was. You put his position, also, did you see W. J.
Harrison in that group?
Mr. CLARDY. W. J.? That is a detective in the juvenile bureau?
Mr. HUBERT. Well, I don't know. I can't testify. I am not--well, that's
all right.
Mr. CLARDY. Sir, there was a detective, I am pretty sure the one you
are talking about. I don't know him real well?
Mr. HUBERT. That's all right.
Mr. CLARDY. I don't know whether it was Harrison that was along in here
[indicating].
Mr. HUBERT. Now, would you make a circle and state where you think
"Blackie" Harrison was at the time of the shooting?
Mr. CLARDY. Time I saw Detective Harrison, to the best of my knowledge,
he was along in there [indicating].
Mr. HUBERT. I am marking that circle by putting "Position of 'Blackie'
Harrison at time of shooting," is that correct or at the time you saw
him?
Mr. CLARDY. At the time I checked, looked over the basement, which
would have been approximately 3 minutes, 2 or 3 minutes before the
shooting.
Mr. HUBERT. You saw him 2 or 3 minutes prior to the shooting. Now, I'll
ask you to check that again, that circle that I have designated by the
legend, "position of 'Blackie' Harrison at the time Clardy saw him 2 or
3 minutes prior to the shooting." Is that approximately the position of
Mr. Harrison at the time designated?
Mr. CLARDY. Correct.
Mr. HUBERT. That was the time you looked over the crowd?
Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. In that area, again, can you tell us about how many people
were concentrated?
Mr. CLARDY. Including a couple of uniformed officers in that area,
there was possibly six or seven people in that area at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. At the time you looked over at the crowd then you could see
that if he stays behind this crowd of people looking up the Main Street
ramp----
Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see anybody come down at all?
Mr. CLARDY. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see any movement there?
Mr. CLARDY. No, sir. I saw the--I say "movement"--I saw the car that
Lieutenant Pierce drove out that ramp, and at the time that the car
approached the top of the ramp there was nobody in that area.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see the car at the top of the ramp?
Mr. CLARDY. Sir, the car now as it went out--let me get this straight
here.
Mr. HUBERT. Don't use the map now, if you can do it without it.
Mr. CLARDY. Let me get it straight here. I watched the car drive out
until he drove approximately half, or maybe three-fourths of the way
up, and at that time, clear back down to here [indicating] there was
nobody in between.
Mr. HUBERT. All right.
Mr. CLARDY. Now, as to what--watching it drive on up to the top of the
ramp, no, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not see it drive to the top?
Mr. CLARDY. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. But, roughly between half and three-fourths of the way up
the ramp? Were you looking in that direction after the car had passed
out of the ramp?
Mr. CLARDY. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, do you think this, if anybody had come running down
there you would have seen them?
Mr. CLARDY. Sir, it is quite possible that somebody could have come
running down there and I wouldn't have seen them.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not, in any case, see anybody?
Mr. CLARDY. I did not see anybody. Now, I was facing more over in--oh,
almost straight across the ramp after I looked over the----
Mr. HUBERT. Over the crowd?
Mr. CLARDY. Over the crowd.
Mr. HUBERT. And you looked over the crowd prior to the time the car
passed?
Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not look over the crowd then--after that?
Mr. CLARDY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think it is possible from your position that anybody
could have come down that ramp and you would not have seen them?
Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. What makes you think that, sir?
Mr. CLARDY. Well, I wasn't just in particular watching toward the
direction--at the time that Lieutenant Pierce come out, there was a
lot of these people moving around, and I was trying to keep an eye on
them. At the time the other car was brought out--being brought out,
there was a lot of those people over in this area in here moving around
[indicating].
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I think you have already testified that as to the
actual shooting itself, you just saw a movement?
Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Off to your left?
Mr. CLARDY. Just a blur of movement.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you first identify Ruby?
Mr. CLARDY. After he had been taken inside the jail office.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you speak to him then?
Mr. CLARDY. As I went inside the main jail office they had the cuffs on
him, and Detective McMillon said, "Well, let's take him on upstairs."
And said, "Barney, take my gun."
I took Detective McMillon's gun out of his holster, and at the time I
did, Jack Ruby said, "I'm Jack Ruby. Don't you know me? Don't you know
me?" Said, "Yes, I know you, Jack," something to that effect. I am not
sure, because I was sick to my stomach of what had happened, and then
seeing him and wondering in my own mind how in the world a man had
ever got in there. I took Detective McMillon's gun and mine and put it
in one of the lockers in the jail office there, which is provided for
that purpose. And along with Detective McMillon, Detective "Blackie"
Harrison, and Detective Archer, and there was some other detectives on
the elevator with us, and I'm not sure who, and we took Ruby directly
to the fifth floor.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he make any comments during that trip?
Mr. CLARDY. Sir, I was on the--I was the last one that got to the
elevator. If he was--made any comment on the way up I didn't hear him.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, in your statement to the FBI agent which has been
identified as No. 5063, you stated he did mention other things. That
you had heard Ruby mention that he had intended to get off three shots,
do you recall that?
Mr. CLARDY. That was after we got upstairs.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, tell us about that.
Mr. CLARDY. I am not sure who asked him the question. I believe it was
Detective Archer, and asked him in some way, "Did you intend to"--or,
"Did you think you could kill the man with one shot?" And he said, "I
intended to get off three shots." Said, "I didn't think that I could be
stopped before I got off three shots." But, that, I----
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ask Ruby, or did anyone ask Ruby in your presence
how he had gotten into the basement?
Mr. CLARDY. I asked Ruby.
Mr. HUBERT. You did by yourself?
Mr. CLARDY. I asked him myself, and I am sure there were several others
who did.
Mr. HUBERT. That was when you were up on the fifth floor?