Mr. ARCHER. This is the door [indicating].
Mr. HUBERT. The corridor door?
Mr. ARCHER. The corridor door, yes, sir; not the jail office door.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember whether the jail office door sort of
cornered you?
Mr. ARCHER. No, sir; it couldn't corner me. It didn't interfere with me
at all.
Mr. HUBERT. It is a swinging door, isn't it?
Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir; it is. I am sure--I feel like in my own mind, it
was open.
Mr. HUBERT. Swung open into the jail area?
Mr. ARCHER. Swung open into the jail area. In my own mind, as I say, I
can't be certain about that point, because I just don't recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, I suggest to you that if you had--if it did open the
other way, it would have kind of boxed you in.
Mr. ARCHER. I don't believe it did. That is the reason I have it in my
mind that it was opened the other way, because I recall no interference
from the door whatsoever.
Mr. HUBERT. You don't remember being boxed in?
Mr. ARCHER. I know I wasn't boxed in, no, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what happened then when the party came down that
was transferring Oswald?
Mr. ARCHER. Well, as they brought Oswald down to the basement, now, the
first officer that I saw was Captain Fritz. As he started out the jail
office door he stopped and paused, and whether he said something to the
detectives with Oswald, I don't know. He didn't--motioned to them like
for them to wait a second, like I say, I didn't hear any command or
any orders given at that time, and then he proceeded to walk out, and
I would say probably at that particular point, took about three paces.
Then the detectives started out with Oswald.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, as the party moved, they moved away from you, I guess?
Mr. ARCHER. Yes; they did.
Mr. HUBERT. But, they were in your line of vision?
Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir; they were.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what you saw?
Mr. ARCHER. Well, as they passed in front of me, I could see--I could
see the detectives on each side of Oswald leading him towards the ramp.
The automobile ramp in the basement. Then as they neared the front of
the ramp--now, keeping in mind that in this position that I was in,
I did have some bright lights shining into my eyes, and that because
of these lights it would be hard for me to recognize someone on the
opposite side of the ramp. I mean, you know, without focusing my vision
directly on them. In other words, I couldn't take a scanning view and
possibly recognize just anyone, but as they approached the ramp, just
as they reached the edge of the ramp, I caught a figure of a man. The
movement first turned my attention to that point. I had been watching
Oswald and the detectives, and more to my right, and then I caught the
movement of a man, and my first thought was, as I started moving--well,
my first thought was that somebody jumped out of the crowd, maybe
to take a sock at him. Someone got emotionally upset and jumped out
to take a sock at him and I started to move forward, and as I moved
forward I saw the man reach Oswald, raise up, and then the shot was
fired.
Mr. HUBERT. So you were in motion before the shot was fired?
Mr. ARCHER. Well, I would say just it would be instantaneous. I mean,
when I saw the movement I feel like I started moving, too.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you first recognize Ruby?
Mr. ARCHER. I didn't recognize Ruby at all. I didn't know the man
personally, and I didn't know his name (nor I didn't even know who
admitted the shooting) until following the shooting when they asked him
his name and he said, "You all know me, I'm Jack Ruby."
Mr. HUBERT. Was that when he was overpowered?
Mr. ARCHER. That was as we took him back to the jail office after the
shooting.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he make any observation or remark or say anything at
all before he was moved into the jail office?
Mr. ARCHER. Sir, an instant before I heard the shot, I heard a phrase.
Now, I couldn't say what the phrase was and then I definitely----
Mr. HUBERT. You mean you don't know what the phrase was?
Mr. ARCHER. No, sir; I don't know. I couldn't say what the phrase was,
because I had not heard, but I did hear the words, "Son-of-a-bitch,"
and then the shot was fired.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who said it?
Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir; I know Ruby said it. I'm positive of that. I was
looking right at the man.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean that you didn't hear anything except those four
words, "Son-of-a-bitch"?
Mr. ARCHER. That is the only words I could make out.
Mr. HUBERT. And you knew it was coming from him?
Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir; I thought that it did.
Mr. HUBERT. How far were you from him?
Mr. ARCHER. I would say, at that particular time, I was five, maybe six
paces.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did he move from?
Mr. ARCHER. Sir, when I saw him, he was approaching the detectives.
It was my first glimpse of it. I, personally, could not say where he
moved from. He came out of the crowd, as far as I could tell, because
that was all that was around was the press and officers, lining the
corridors so far as I knew, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Could he have come up from the area where the television
cameras were located?
Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir; he could have. When he came into my vision, he
was already in front of the detectives, and I did not see exactly where
he did come from.
Mr. HUBERT. What detective was he in front of?
Mr. ARCHER. Detective--the ones that had Oswald, which would be Mr.
Leavelle and Mr. Graves.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what detectives Ruby passed by in his motion
from his prior position to when you saw him?
Mr. ARCHER. No, sir; I--my own personal knowledge, now, well, if you
are speaking about that time, I did not; no, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. What you are saying, I think, is that you found out
subsequently?
Mr. ARCHER. Yes; subsequently.
Mr. HUBERT. But at the moment, you didn't recognize them?
Mr. ARCHER. At the time if someone had asked me who had been standing
there, I couldn't have said, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, then, he was brought into the jail office
immediately?
Mr. ARCHER. After the shot was fired, sir, I tried to move forward, but
I was cut off by the other officers. The--I started forward, well, the
struggle went to my left as I moved forward, individually worked itself
way around in back of me, and just as they reached the jail office,
well, I took his left arm and assisted them in walking--I went into the
jail office with him.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. What happened next?
Mr. ARCHER. After we took him into the jail office?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. ARCHER. After we got the subject into the jail office I still
didn't know who he was. Someone asked where the gun was. Now, I had
not, up to this point, seen the gun other than just an instant after
the shot was fired when I caught sight of this man again, which was
Ruby. I didn't see the gun. I was interested in knowing where the gun
was, or if he still had the gun and we took him on into the jail office
and I assisted in keeping his left arm behind him and someone got his
right. I couldn't say who it was that had his other arm. Laid him down
on the floor, his head and face were away from me at that particular
time. But that is when I said, "Who is he?"
I made that statement, because I didn't know who it was and Ruby then
turned his face in my direction. He didn't look directly at me. His
face had been turned in this manner [indicating]. He then turned in
this manner [indicating], and he--that is when he said, "You all know
me, I'm Jack Ruby."
Mr. HUBERT. What happened next in that jail office area?
Mr. ARCHER. When we had the subject on the floor, I was reaching for
my handcuffs. I reached back in this manner [indicating] to unhook my
handcuffs off my belt, and Detective McMillon was astraddle and over
him, over Ruby, and I believe I said, "Mac, do you need my cuffs?"
About that time, "No; I have got it now." And said he placed the cuffs
on Ruby.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you do next?
Mr. ARCHER. After he got the cuffs on him, there were still--oh, there
was still lots of confusion going on, and several statements were
being made or being asked. I don't know. They seemed--some of the
statements seemed to come from behind me. I don't know whether it was
reporters looking into the jail office or just who it was, but there
were some statements made inquiring--several people were asking, "Who
is he?" Did he hit him? Did he shoot him? Or things of that nature, as
I recall. And he said at that particular point, "I hope I killed the
son-of-a-bitch."
I think Captain King was there just a very short time. We began to
get--McMillon and I and Detective Clardy, I know the three of us and
perhaps one or two other officers, I couldn't say for sure, assisted
Ruby to his feet, and we started toward the jail elevator with him,
along with Captain King. I believe Captain King said at that point in
there somewhere, "Let's get him onto the elevator and take him to the
fifth floor jail." So, we then went to the elevator. They put him on
the elevator, and I believe that I was either last, or near the last
getting on the elevator, and then we proceeded on to the fifth floor
jail.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you do when you got up there?
Mr. ARCHER. After we got to the fifth floor jail we took him back to
the investigative section of the jail, which is just an open section,
not a cell. Just an open section of the jail, and we began to search
him for any weapons. We were, at least I was mainly concerned as
to whether he had any other weapons on him at all. We stripped him
and stripped him of his clothing, and I wasn't interested too much
in personal property, but mainly searching for weapons or bombs, or
anything else he might have concealed on him.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you find any personal property on him?
Mr. ARCHER. Did I find any personal property on him?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir, I searched him. I did remove some personal
property. I recall a large roll of money and perhaps some change. I'm
not sure about that. The main thing I remember was the large roll of
money.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you do with the property you took from his person?
Mr. ARCHER. We had been there--before I started removing any personal
property; well, I searched him by feeling of him, you know, feeling for
any weapons first, and then one of the other jailers, uniformed jail
officers, Haake, came up and what personal property I took out of his
pockets, I handed right over to him. I didn't bother to itemize it or
anything else, because that is their job, not ours, and----
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't make an inventory of his property?
Mr. ARCHER. I didn't; no, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You just handed it over to another man?
Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to Ruby then?
Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir; we did.
Mr. HUBERT. What did he say?
Mr. ARCHER. During--after we--as I began searching him, making the
general search of him, as we were standing there I said--I had seen
Oswald on the floor in the jail office after he had been brought in
there and I looked at him, and to me he looked like he was dead. Of
course, I couldn't say he was dead, but I am saying that to me he
looked like he was dead, and I said to Ruby at that time, "Jack I think
you killed him," and he just looked at me right straight in the eye and
said, "Well, I intended to shoot him three times."
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Jack Ruby?
Mr. ARCHER. No, sir; I didn't know him. I wouldn't recognize the man
if I saw him on the street. I do--I knew of him. I had heard the name
before. I did have--I did recollect that he had been handled by the
department, but I never arrested him, and I had never seen him.
Mr. HUBERT. But, you knew the name was Jack Ruby, though?
Mr. ARCHER. Sir?
Mr. HUBERT. You knew the name was Jack Ruby, though?
Mr. ARCHER. I didn't know the name was Jack Ruby other than he told me
his name was Jack Ruby.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I am handing two documents, which I'm identifying as
follows, to wit: One document apparently is a copy of a statement dated
November 27, 1964, addressed to Chief Curry, apparently signed by you,
which I am marking, "Dallas, Tex., March 25, 1964. Exhibit No. 5092,
deposition of D. R. Archer," I have signed it on the first page, and
I have initialed the second page by marking my initials on the lower
right-hand corner, and another document which I have marked in the
right margin, "Dallas, Tex., March 25, 1964. Exhibit 5093, deposition
of D. R. Archer," and I have signed my name below that, and put my
initials on the second page, bottom right-hand corner. And I would like
you to examine those exhibits, please, and then after you have done so,
I wish to ask you some questions about them.