Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Lieutenant WIGGINS. Or, being moved to the county?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Lieutenant WIGGINS. I'd say possibly a minute before the shooting
occurred, they called me--someone called me from the--Captain Fritz'
office, the homicide bureau, and told me they were en route down the
elevator with Oswald, and I know that when I hung the phone up I looked
in and could tell by the elevator lights it was on the way down.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, in your statement you fix that moment at 11:20. How do
you fix that? Do you remember now how you fixed that?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. I remember looking at our clock as they came by. I
don't know why, but I looked, just to be sure.
Mr. HUBERT. That is the big electric clock, that is on the wall there?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. Big electric clock on the wall there.
Mr. HUBERT. The wall that is adjacent to the ramp?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. Well, I don't know what you mean, "adjacent to it,"
it is directly--on the wall directly in front of the hallway.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, as you come into the jail office, from the corridor,
that clock is on the wall to your right?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that an electric clock?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes, sir; it is.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you all check it frequently?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. No; but maybe just occasionally might call the bank
to get the time, but----
Mr. HUBERT. Will you estimate just how accurate that clock is,
normally, and was on the day in question, the 24th?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. No; I would say that it was possibly, I'm sure, not
over 2 to 3 minutes off either way.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think that there could be a 6 minutes difference?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. No; I certainly don't.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, you see what I mean. In other words, you say it could
be 3 minutes off either way, then there could be a difference--no, I
see what you mean. Could be a difference of only 3 minutes. Have you
ever known it to be that much off?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. Not to my knowledge. I don't recall the time that
I----
Mr. HUBERT. As a matter of fact, being an electric clock the only thing
that will stop it from working is if the current went off, is that
right?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes, sir. And, now, I don't recall on any
particular details of ever having set that clock for--or anyone having
set it. I don't know.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you rely on that clock for timing other events in your
business of running the jail office?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. Repeat that question. I am not sure I understand
what you mean.
Mr. HUBERT. I take it that the time of various events, like the time of
a prisoner's release on bond, or the time that he is actually brought
in is a matter of record in some instances, with the police?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the time and the entry of that time on the
record is a part of your function?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you rely on that clock?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. Most of the time. Sometimes I look at my watch, but
most of the time I look at the clock.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, 11:20, you have as the time you first noticed the
elevator coming down, and in a few seconds after that I guess they
passed by?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. No, sir; the time at 11:20 that I am speaking of, I
remember I looked at the clock as they were coming out of the elevator.
Mr. HUBERT. It was 11:20 just then?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. Of course, that is only a matter of seconds.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, they passed by you?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. As they came down, and as they came off the
elevator Captain Fritz was the first man off, and he said, "Are they
ready?" And I know that then I stepped out of the door, and I don't
recall whether I ever answered him or not, but I stepped out into the
corridor first. If I would have answered him I am sure I have--would
have told him that it was ready, but I don't recall whether I did or
didn't because I presumed they were ready, as everyone else did, and I
know I stepped out into the corridor, to the left as you went out the
door. I stepped to the left possibly 3 or 4 feet from the door, and
they passed me then.
Mr. HUBERT. On your right?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes, sir; they passed me with Oswald at that time,
and had proceeded past me approximately 6 or 7 feet when the incident
happened.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see any shooting at all?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. I heard the shot, and did see the gun, but at--but
not at the time of the shooting. I saw the gun after the officers had
grabbed it and had swarmed Jack Ruby.
Mr. HUBERT. Describe Jack Ruby coming out of the group.
Lieutenant WIGGINS. I saw a man coming out. I had no idea who it was,
but, I mean, it happened so quickly I caught it in the corner of my
eye, and I saw him out of the corner, saw him coming out of the crowd,
but I didn't know at that time who it was.
Mr. HUBERT. Just about what position in the crowd did he come from?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. If you were familiar with that location I could
tell you exactly.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, we have here a mockup of the area, and also
a corresponding chart that you can use, and for purposes now of
identifying it, I am going to mark this document as follows, "Dallas,
Tex., March 24, 1964. Exhibit No. 5076, deposition of Woodrow Wiggins."
And I am signing my name to it, and I ask you, for the purpose of
identification to sign beneath my name. Now, first of all, you--using
the mockup to get your own position, and then secondly, I ask you to
mark on this chart that we have identified your position by placing a
circle actually at the place where you were.
Lieutenant WIGGINS. Where my position was?
Mr. HUBERT. At the time the shot was fired.
Lieutenant WIGGINS. All right, sir. I had come out of this door and I
had stepped to along here, just about there [indicating].
Mr. HUBERT. Just put a circle there.
Lieutenant WIGGINS. Okay.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I am writing--you have marked a little mark there
and I have put a circle around it and I am marking here, "Position of
Wiggins at the time of the shot." And circling that, is that correct?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. That is prexactly (sic) correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Now on that same map would you put a mark which I am also
going to circle later and identify as to the spot as best you can
recollect it where you first saw Ruby coming out.
Lieutenant WIGGINS. The spot where he was?
Mr. HUBERT. Where he was.
Lieutenant WIGGINS. When I saw him?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; the spot where he was when you saw him. Now, look at
the mockup first and get your distances.