Mr. VAUGHN. Well, that means just turn them loose and send them back to
their regular duties.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, of the four men, you were to help in
whatever Dean was doing, and then he told you, "Tell Dean--leave two
men in the basement and turn the other two loose?"
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes; that's after everything was completed. That's his
message that he more or less sent by me to Sergeant Dean.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, does that term "secure" mean to turn the men
loose--does that mean they would go off duty or that they were to
report back somewhere else to work?
Mr. VAUGHN. They were to report back for somewhere else.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you follow those instructions?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any part in the checkout of the basement?
Mr. VAUGHN. As far as actually checking the basement?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes, sir.
Mr. VAUGHN. Well, I was assigned by Sergeant Putnam, who was with
Sergeant Dean in the basement, when we got down there--Sergeant Putnam
assigned me to the Main Street ramp and I believe he assigned also
Patrolman Patterson to the Commerce Street ramp.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, about what time did he assign you to the Main Street
entrance?
Mr. VAUGHN. I would say, Mr. Hubert, somewhere around 9:30--I couldn't
be definite.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he give you any instructions?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes; he said not to let anybody enter the basement except
police and the press, and only the press when they had an official
press card, and if I didn't recognize any officer by sight to require
identification.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you understand by that that he meant that even if an
officer was in what purported to be a uniform, that you weren't to let
him in anyhow unless he had an identification?
Mr. VAUGHN. Well, he said--the way I understand it, Mr. Hubert, if I
recognized them by sight and knew them to be an officer, and by my own
knowing them, then otherwise, where I think it was more applied--to
where--he said there would possibly be some Secret Service men and
possibly would be some Federal agents I didn't know, and would I
require identification from them.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you understand to mean by proper press
accreditation or identification?
Mr. VAUGHN. Well, there was one case where--there are several different
types of press cards. The only one that I would accept from them which
would be, and I think in one or two cases, was the official card either
issued by the States of Texas or by the City of Dallas, which contained
the photograph of the reporter.
Mr. HUBERT. Otherwise, even though they had something that looked like
a press card, you understood that you were to turn them away?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir; that's right.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you in fact turn away some people?
Mr. VAUGHN. I had one particular--yes, I turned away several people
that were not press--they would try to enter the ramp. Of course, this
is--normally a person going to the jail, which is immediately off of
the bottom of the ramp--a lot of people will try to use that ramp as an
entrance to the jail and there were a lot of people that come up there
and said that they were going to the jail and I turned them away and
told them to go some other way.
There was one reporter that come up and I believe he was with either
Associated Press or United Press, I don't recall exactly, and he had
on a sweater--first he asked me if some man was in the basement, some
other reporter, and I told him I didn't know, and he said he wanted to
go down and see him, and I told him I couldn't permit him to without
identification, and he pulled out a pass which is--I don't know how
to express it--a large yellow pass, more or less a complimentary
press pass and I told him I couldn't accept that and he dug around in
his billfold and he finally did come up with a pass. I believe this
particular pass was issued by the State of California or the City of
Los Angeles, but it was similar to our official pass.
Mr. HUBERT. And you recognized that?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes; I did.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Jack Ruby at all prior to this occasion?
Mr. VAUGHN. Well, I had met Mr. Ruby prior to this time, Mr. Hubert.
Mr. HUBERT. How many times would you say?
Mr. VAUGHN. I would say two or three times to be at the most.
Mr. HUBERT. How long before November 24?
Mr. VAUGHN. When I was a rookie in 1959, I met Mr. Ruby while I was
working a district out of Oak Lawn and I was more or less being trained
at that time, riding with another senior officer and an occasion arose
where they had to contact him about a white waitress that he had
worked--had worked for him and had been intimate with some colored
musicians that he had.
Mr. HUBERT. And you met him on that occasion?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir; actually, I was just there. I hadn't--I knew the
man.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did that interview last?
Mr. VAUGHN. Oh, I'd say just a very few minutes--I don't recall.
Mr. HUBERT. When was the second time you saw him?
Mr. VAUGHN. The second time was, I believe it was in 1961, and either
the last of December or the middle of December.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about that occasion.
Mr. VAUGHN. Well, I had him on a traffic violation--a minor traffic
violation.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you recognize him as the man you had seen before?
Mr. VAUGHN. Not until he told me who he was and I reprimanded him and
let him go--didn't even issue him a ticket.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did that interview if we can call it that, with
Ruby, last?
Mr. VAUGHN. I would say at most probably 5 minutes.
Mr. HUBERT. When was the third time you saw him, and I think the third
time would have been the last time, too?
Mr. VAUGHN. As I recall that's about the last time I have ever seen the
fellow.
Mr. HUBERT. I thought you said there were three times?
Mr. VAUGHN. Well, either two or three--I couldn't be exact--I believe,
like I said, I probably may have seen him more, but you know, just
passing him when I was working on the district, but like I say, it
would be difficult for me to recall definitely the times--I can recall
definitely two times.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever been to either of his clubs or any of his
clubs?
Mr. VAUGHN. I have been to the Vegas Club, I would say, possibly twice.
Mr. HUBERT. What about the Carousel or the Sovereign?
Mr. VAUGHN. I didn't even know he had the Carousel.
Mr. HUBERT. The Silver Slipper or any of his other clubs?
Mr. VAUGHN. I didn't even know he had them.
Mr. HUBERT. On the two occasions that you went to the Vegas, did you
see him?
Mr. VAUGHN. Not that I recall--ever seeing him.
Mr. HUBERT. How long ago were those occasions?
Mr. VAUGHN. This would also be in 1959.
Mr. HUBERT. So, the last time you really saw him was in December 1961?
Mr. VAUGHN. I believe it would be in December 1961--there were other
occasions that I was in his club. I was on duty and actually just
making a routine check or answering a call there. I had actually never
been in his club except on business.
Mr. HUBERT. On those occasions that you did go on business, do you
recall having seen him?
Mr. VAUGHN. No; I don't, I don't recall seeing him.
Mr. HUBERT. When you stated you were posted at the Main Street ramp, by
that I take it you mean the exit of the Main Street ramp, that is to
say, where it comes out?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes; out onto the street--onto the sidewalk.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, physically where did you maintain your post?
Mr. VAUGHN. I maintained it inside--actually, I would say 2 or 3 feet
inside--actually--of the ramp.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you weren't on the sidewalk?
Mr. VAUGHN. Oh, no; I was inside--standing inside the ramp.
Mr. HUBERT. The ramp is about how many feet wide?
Mr. VAUGHN. I would just have to estimate it--I would say it was 12 to
15 feet.
Mr. HUBERT. And you were standing more or less in the middle?
Mr. VAUGHN. In the middle.
Mr. HUBERT. And that was about from 9:30 on?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever leave that post?
Mr. VAUGHN. The only time when I ever moved out of my position there
was when this car which was driven by Lieutenant Pierce exited by that
ramp.
Mr. HUBERT. Before we get to that, let me ask you this--you mentioned
that on several occasions people came in, identified themselves and you
let them through, or you turned away other people?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What steps did you take to maintain the security of your
post while you were talking to such people so that other people
wouldn't sneak through?
Mr. VAUGHN. I was still standing in the middle of the ramp.
Mr. HUBERT. It would be impossible, you think, for anybody to pass on
either side of you?
Mr. VAUGHN. That's right--without seeing them.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, coming to the time when the automobile passed through,
tell us what you know about that?
Mr. VAUGHN. Well, I would say it was approximately a quarter or a
little past--about 18 minutes past 11, somewhere around there--I
wouldn't be exact on the time.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you fix that time?
Mr. VAUGHN. Well, they established, I think, that the shooting occurred
at 11:21 and I'm just judging by the minutes before.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, what you say is that you don't really have
a direct recollection of what time it was, but you reconstructed it
with the information given to you that the shooting took place at such
and such a time?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes--at such and such a time.
Mr. HUBERT. Let's do it this way. How long before you heard the shot
did that car driven by Rio Pierce pass by you?
Mr. VAUGHN. I would say not over 3 minutes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, did you recognize anybody in the car?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you do when the car came up?
Mr. VAUGHN. The first thing I noticed the car--still standing inside
the ramp--and I heard someone at the bottom of the ramp holler, "Watch
the car," and when I looked down you could just get a view of the front
end of the car coming up the ramp. It had its red lights on, which were
in the grill. As it come on up the ramp, I stepped to my right, and it
come up the ramp----
Mr. HUBERT. You stepped towards Pearl Street?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes--towards Pearl Street, and I stepped to my right in
order to get out of the car's way, and I stepped out on the sidewalk
somewhere between the sidewalk and the curb, I believe it was right
around the curb, and I glanced--it would be toward the eastbound
traffic, which would be traffic towards Pearl Street to see that
traffic was clear, and then motioned them on and I turned around and
walked back.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not go into the street at all?
Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not pass the curb?
Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; not that I recall--I don't believe I did at all.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you say that when you stepped to the right and walked
on the sidewalk to the curb you looked for the traffic--to your right?
Mr. VAUGHN. Actually, the way I was facing it would be to my left,
which would be west.
Mr. HUBERT. It would be towards Harwood Street?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes--towards Harwood Street.
Mr. HUBERT. Was your back then toward the ramp entrance?
Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; my back was not toward the ramp, I was standing to
the right of the ramp where I still had a view of the ramp itself, the
entrance to the ramp. My back would have been toward Pearl Street--it
would be towards the east.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever turn your head or your body toward your right,
that is, toward Pearl Street?
Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; not that I recall. All I done on that, Mr. Hubert,
like I say, I walked out--I glanced west, which would be towards the
eastbound traffic going west and due to the fact that there were cars
parked along here on Main Street, I glanced to the west and seen there
was an opening in the eastbound traffic, which would be coming from the
west, and I just motioned them on.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not go out in the middle of the street to halt
traffic?
Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. HUBERT. Were there many people standing around that entrance?
Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; I would say at most, I believe, at most it would
be a half dozen, I think, who were standing there.
Mr. HUBERT. Were they standing in front or to the side?
Mr. VAUGHN. Oh, there was one particular person that I recall that was
standing on my right, which would be toward Pearl Street--would be N.
J. Daniels.
Mr. HUBERT. You did see him?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. He is a former policeman?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you recognized him as such?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And he was in civilian clothes?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You know that little concrete or stone projection out into
the sidewalk?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. I think that they have two of those, one on each side of
the ramp and they extend about 5 or 6 feet into the sidewalk from the
side of the building toward the curb--is it correct to say that they
are about 12 inches high?
Mr. VAUGHN. I believe they are a little higher--I believe they would be
about 18 inches high.
Mr. HUBERT. On what side of the ramp was Daniels?
Mr. VAUGHN. He would be on the east side, toward Pearl Street there.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, after the Pierce car passed by, what did you do?
Mr. VAUGHN. I walked back inside the ramp to my original post, which
was 2 or 3 feet inside.
Mr. HUBERT. And you stayed there until after the shot was fired?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did anyone go by you after you returned to your post,
following the exit of the Rio Pierce car?
Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; not that I recall--I don't believe there was.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you qualify that by saying, "Not that you recall"--I
had understood from your previous testimony that it would have been
impossible for anybody to do so.
Mr. VAUGHN. Well, as far as--actually, when I got inside the ramp, I
don't believe there was anybody that went by between the time that I
stepped back inside and the actual time of the shooting. When I say I
recall, well, I'll put it definite--I know there wasn't--I'll put it
that way.
Mr. HUBERT. That's the way I had understood your previous testimony,
because I had asked you as to whether it were possible for anyone to
have passed by you previously when you were examining the credentials
of others.
Mr. VAUGHN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. And I think your answer to me was--no, it was
impossible--they would have had to go either to the left or right of
you and you were standing in the middle of a 12-foot opening?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it fair to say, then, that after you got back to your
post, following the exit of Rio Pierce's car, that nobody passed you?
Mr. VAUGHN. Nobody passed me.
Mr. HUBERT. Specifically, did Jack Ruby pass you?
Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, when the Rio Pierce car was coming out, what steps or
action did you take to maintain the security of your post while that
car was passing through?
Mr. VAUGHN. The only steps, like I said, Mr. Hubert, on that--is when
I stepped out onto the sidewalks--why--I made sure that my view of the
entrance of the city hall was not completely blocked, that I could
still see the entrance to the right.
Mr. HUBERT. You use the words "completely blocked," do you mean to
infer by that it could have been partially blocked?
Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; the only thing--when I stepped out, as the car
came out, I still had a view of the actual entrance to the ramp.
Mr. HUBERT. Would it have been possible that part of your view was
blocked by the automobile itself?
Mr. VAUGHN. It possibly--for an instant while the car was coming
out--actually out of the entrance--but after it cleared the ramp--no,
sir.
Mr. HUBERT. After it cleared the entrance you returned your view to
your post, even though you weren't at it?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And nobody entered it at that time?
Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; they did not.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see Jack Ruby standing by that concrete or
marble--what do you call it?
Mr. VAUGHN. Slab there.
Mr. HUBERT. Standing by that slab there where Daniels was?
Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Was there anybody else with Daniels?
Mr. VAUGHN. No; not that I recall seeing that morning. Now, Daniels
worked up there around approximately 2 or 3 feet--he was there quite
some time and during the morning there were several people that would
walk by the Main Street entrance and they would look in, more or less
curiosity seekers more than anything else. There were very few that
actually stopped and there was one particular man that did stop that
I recall--I don't know his name. He was on the left of the ramp which
would be toward the Harwood Street side. He used to be a shine boy in
the basement of the city hall.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember some city hall janitorial workers,
particularly a man by the name of Fuqua--did you see any people dressed
in janitorial uniforms pass by?
Mr. VAUGHN. As I recall, I seen some men walk down the street there and
look in the ramp and they walked on.
Mr. HUBERT. Which way were they coming from?
Mr. VAUGHN. I believe they were coming from the east.
Mr. HUBERT. That is what direction?
Mr. VAUGHN. From Pearl--towards Harwood.
Mr. HUBERT. They just passed by?
Mr. VAUGHN. They would have hesitated for just a minute.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall how long before the shooting they passed by?
Mr. VAUGHN. I would just have to estimate--just an estimate--I would
say it was probably 15 or 20 minutes, something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think it would have been possible for anyone to
enter the basement who was approaching the Main Street ramp from Pearl
Street or the Western Union direction, while the Pierce car was exiting?
Mr. VAUGHN. No; I don't believe it would.
Mr. HUBERT. And why do you say that?
Mr. VAUGHN. Because--due to the fact--the time, the period of
time--like I said, I had a view of the ramp from the period of time the
car actually come out, and I waved it on and walked back to the ramp.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you know, of course, that Ruby says that's the way he
got in?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, I realize that.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your opinion about that statement?
Mr. VAUGHN. I don't believe he did.
Mr. HUBERT. You think he got in some other way?
Mr. VAUGHN. I don't know definitely, but I'll say he didn't come in
at the ramp. How he got in--that, I don't know, but I know--I don't
believe that he came in the ramp.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it your opinion beyond any reasonable doubt, and I think
you are familiar with that phrase as an officer, aren't you?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That Ruby did not enter the basement through the ramp while
you were there?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that opinion so strong that if you were a juror, for
example, you would convict a man or acquit him, whichever it would be,
on the basis of your statement that he did not enter at that ramp?
Mr. VAUGHN. Well, now, what do you mean by that?
Mr. HUBERT. That's the reasonable doubt test, you see.
Mr. VAUGHN. You mean as far as I am concerned--as far as what I think
about it, that I definitely do not think the man come down that ramp.
Mr. HUBERT. But I was testing the strength of your view.
Mr. VAUGHN. Well, I don't quite understand or follow you?
Mr. HUBERT. Well, here's what I had in mind--I'll put it this way--do
you have the moral conviction that Jack Ruby did not enter the basement
through the Main Street ramp to the degree that if that were an issue
in a case on which you were a juror, you would say that it is beyond a
reasonable doubt that he did not enter that way?
Mr. VAUGHN. So far as the knowledge I have of it--no, sir--I do not.
I think if the question is that you think I would convict him on
the doubt--of the knowledge that I have that he did not enter that
ramp--yes, sir, I would.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you think it is beyond a reasonable doubt,
as far as you are concerned?
Mr. VAUGHN. As far as I am concerned--yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember a man who turned out to be a police
mechanic?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know his name?
Mr. VAUGHN. Tom Chabot [spelling] C-h-a-b-o-t--I don't think I can
spell it actually--anyway, Chabot.
Mr. HUBERT. When did he enter the basement?
Mr. VAUGHN. Oh, this was somewhat earlier--he pulled up in a city squad
car and started into the ramp.
Mr. HUBERT. How much earlier was it, and earlier than what?
Mr. VAUGHN. It was, I would say--it was approximately--just an
estimate, it would be somewhere around 10 o'clock.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, this man Chabot went into the basement
about an hour and 20 minutes before the shooting?
Mr. VAUGHN. Somewhere around there--like I said--it would strictly be
an estimate on the time.
Mr. HUBERT. What happened--he tried or he went through?
Mr. VAUGHN. Well, he pulled up in a city squad car and I told him I
couldn't allow him in the basement in a squad car and so, he backed the
car out and he parked it on Main Street, which would be actually east
toward Pearl Street from--it would be on my right from the entrance
or exit there--it would be on the right. He parked there and he got
out and he come back and he come back up where I was standing inside
the ramp, and he stood there a minute or two and talked to me, and, of
course, I had known Chabot ever since I had been there. He's married
to a policewoman, and he stood there a minute and he told me, he said,
"I've got to check the parking situation in the basement."
He said on two previous dates he had had to work later until about
5:30--and so I told him to go ahead, due to the fact that I knew it was
Sunday--I seen him driving a squad car--I thought possibly maybe they
had sent for him, and there was several cars in the basement, so I told
him to go ahead, and I seen him walk down in there--I was standing,
and he was standing in my view--I could see him, and he walked down
there and I got the view when he was talking to Sergeant Dean, and in
2 or 3 minutes he had come back up. He stopped there and chatted with
me a minute and never said a thing, as far as telling him to leave the
basement, so then he got out and went and got in the squad car and left.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, tell us what happened when you heard the shot?
Mr. VAUGHN. Well, after I had stepped back in there when Lieutenant
Pierce had left--stepped back inside the ramp, it was, I would say,
not over 3 minutes I heard somebody holler, "Here he comes," and so--I
turned around and glanced--I couldn't see anything--all I could see was
an outline of a few figures at the bottom.
Mr. HUBERT. You turned then so that your back was to Main Street and
you were looking around?
Mr. VAUGHN. I was standing to a side view--I turned like this and
looked right just like this a little way.
Mr. HUBERT. You looked over your shoulder?
Mr. VAUGHN. I didn't actually turn, and just immediately after that
I heard something that sounded like a shot, but you know, at the
point--it was something like an explosion, but it didn't sound loud
enough to actually be a shot.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see any movement?
Mr. VAUGHN. Well, at that time there was just mass confusion.
Mr. HUBERT. No; I'm talking about a movement after you heard somebody
say, "Here he comes," and turned and looked back.
Mr. VAUGHN. No; sir--as far as any movement on the street.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, specifically, did you see any move forward?
Mr. VAUGHN. Oh, no.
Mr. HUBERT. Which way were you looking when you heard the shot?
Mr. VAUGHN. When I heard the shot I was looking back outside the
entrance.
Mr. HUBERT. Onto Main Street?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Let me get this straight then--you were standing there
facing Main Street?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. In the ramp?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Or a few feet inside the ramp?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You heard somebody holler, "Here he comes," you glanced
over your shoulder, you saw nothing that was of significance?
Mr. VAUGHN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Then turned back?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Then you heard the shots?
Mr. VAUGHN. Then I heard the shots.
Mr. HUBERT. And when you turned to look down the basement after you
heard "Here he comes," you did not see Jack Ruby down there?
Mr. VAUGHN. Oh, no--like I said--the only view I had was--there were
so many people in there where it was just the very people on the
edge--their backs were to me.
Mr. HUBERT. After you heard the shot, what did you do?
Mr. VAUGHN. There was just mass confusion broke loose in the basement.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you leave your post?
Mr. VAUGHN. I stepped back inside--the people outside--there was quite
a crowd beginning to collect outside--I stayed back inside and I drawed
my pistol and stood in the edge of the doorway in case anybody tried
to come out, because actually I didn't know what had happened, and
just immediately after that I seen some of them scuffling down there
and I seen a hand--several people scuffling--and I seen part of a hand
sticking out and it looked like it had a pistol in it, but that's all
I could see was just this part of the hand, and immediately after that
there was one man that broke away from the crowd and started up the
ramp. Of course, he was in civilian clothes, I couldn't tell who he
was, and just as he started, I guess he had taken very few steps from
the crowd, there was a reserve that hit him more or less a tackle like
and almost knocked him down. Still, they were far enough from me that
I couldn't actually tell who it was. And, so, in a minute this reserve
let him pass and he come on up the ramp.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who the reserve was?
Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; I don't. There were so many of those reserves you
know who some of them are and some of them you don't.
Mr. HUBERT. The reserves let him go and he came up the ramp?
Mr. VAUGHN. It was Detective E. O. Burgess.
Mr. HUBERT. You recognized him?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you let him out?
Mr. VAUGHN. No, he didn't go out. He just come up and helped me at top
of the ramp.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he give you any instructions or orders?
Mr. VAUGHN. No. I asked him, I said, "What happened?" And he said,
"He's been shot."
I said, "Who shot him?" And he said--well, he understood it was a
reporter and that was all that was said then, and then immediately
after that Captain Talbert, Capt. C. E. Talbert come up the ramp and
he told me that if anybody tried to leave to get their names and what
they had seen in the basement, and he went back down the ramp and
shortly thereafter there was a sergeant, I believe, it was Sergeant
Everett--I'm not real positive about that, but he brought me a book to
write anybody's name on that did try to leave.
Mr. HUBERT. Did anybody try to leave?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, one man--it was quite some time after the shooting
occurred--after this, one man tried to leave and he was a reporter up
here with WFAA--Dallas Morning News by the name of Millican. I asked
him his name. He wrote his name down and I asked him what he had seen.
He said he didn't see anything, that he didn't arrive until actually
after the shooting happened.
Mr. HUBERT. How did he identify himself?
Mr. VAUGHN. As I recall, with a press card, if I'm not mistaken. I'm
not real positive about that.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember an incident in which a TV man by the name
of Jim Turner was involved? He had got out and came back in.
Mr. VAUGHN. Well, now, there was two men that went out during the time
before the shooting actually happened?
Mr. HUBERT. No; I mean after the shooting. Let me see if I can refresh
your memory in this way--a WBAP-TV man went out to get some equipment,
apparently satisfied you that he could go out, and then when he tried
to come back in again, there was another man there, who you were not
allowing to pass through, and this other man asked this man Turner to
identify him to you; do you recall that incident?
Mr. VAUGHN. I recall this--there was, like I said earlier, there was
two men that went out and got some camera equipment.
Mr. HUBERT. When you said "earlier" you mean before the shot?
Mr. VAUGHN. Oh, yes, yes, sir; it was before the shot--it was shortly
after I was stationed on the ramp, I would say right around 10 o'clock.
They went out and got some camera equipment. I watched them as they
went across the street, the car was parked on Main Street, and then the
same two men--I made definitely sure of that, and when they come back
in, they were carrying equipment--one of these men that was in this--I
don't know his name--come back to the entrance of the ramp and looked
out and he had a taxicab parked on the north side of Main Street and
he waved at that cab and he told me they were waiting, actually, for
when the transfer was made and they were going to take this cab to the
county, and after the shooting, if I am not mistaken, the same man came
back--it was immediately after the shooting, and tried to get back in
the ramp--I would not let him in. I told him definitely that nobody
could get back down there and he said he had been down there, and I
said, "I'm sorry, I can't let you back in," but he had gone back in
carrying the equipment and come back and waved at this taxicab driver
after that, on the other side of the ramp, and then went back down
the ramp, and the next thing I knew he come back from the outside,
immediately after the shooting and wanted me to let him back in, and I
told him--no.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember some individual who had a couple of bags
and possibly some photographic equipment--he looked something like John
Carradine, do you remember that actor, John Carradine, with a wrinkled
face?
Mr. VAUGHN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. This fellow had sort of an overcoat on, a tan overcoat
and he tried to get out and apparently you wouldn't let him out there
because he didn't have the proper identification, and he called upon a
TV man who was coming in and whom you knew apparently, to identify him
and the TV man said, "No, I can't identify you."
Mr. VAUGHN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall that incident?
Mr. VAUGHN. No; I don't.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you said that there was one person who came a
little later after the shooting who wanted to see Ruby?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes--this was after--oh, I would say it was approximately
an hour or almost an hour after the shooting.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who that man was?
Mr. VAUGHN. I don't know his name.
Mr. HUBERT. What did he look like?
Mr. VAUGHN. He was a great big fellow. Now, I would say he was in the
middle twenties or late twenties.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he say to you he wanted to see Ruby?
Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir--who he actually walked up and asked for--he
walked up and I overheard the conversation, if I recall, with one of
the reserve officers--they had sent some reserve officers up before
that time to help with the traffic and the crowd and I overheard the
conversation--he said he was an employee of Jack Ruby's. When I heard
that--we was all standing around there--I went and asked him and he
asked me if lieutenant, let me see, I don't remember the lieutenant's
name--he asked me if there was some lieutenant there and I told him
I didn't know. He said, "Well, I am an employee of Jack Ruby's," and
he said, "I would like to talk to lieutenant--" I believe he said
Cunningham--I'm not real sure; I'm not positive now. Anyway, I asked
him then what the deal was and he said, "He just needed to talk to
him," and I felt possibly--by that time I had found out actually that
Jack Ruby had shot him, and I felt possibly maybe someone wanted to
talk to him, and a reserve relieved me on the entrance of the ramp and
I went and took this man to the information desk in the basement and I
called the homicide bureau and told Detective Boyd--I don't recall if
he is the one that answered the phone, but I told whoever it was what
the circumstances was, and Detective Boyd come down to the basement and
he started searching this man and I helped him search him for any kind
of a concealed weapon he might have and I turned him over to him and I
left. I don't know the man's name, but he said he was an employee of
Jack's.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he a heavy man, you say?
Mr. VAUGHN. He was quite a big man.
Mr. HUBERT. How old would he be?
Mr. VAUGHN. I would say he was in the middle twenties or late twenties.
Mr. HUBERT. What sort of complexion did he have and how was he dressed?
Mr. VAUGHN. I believe he had on a sportcoat and a pair of slacks.
Mr. HUBERT. What was his complexion?
Mr. VAUGHN. Well, he was fair.
Mr. HUBERT. How tall was he?
Mr. VAUGHN. Oh, he was about 6 foot 3 or 4--he was a tall man, but I
believe he was heavier.
Mr. HUBERT. Heavier than who?
Mr. VAUGHN. Heavier than me.
Mr. HUBERT. What would you say he weighed?
Mr. VAUGHN. Oh, I would say he weighed around 250.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he bald or balding?
Mr. VAUGHN. Not that I recall--he had quite a bit of hair.
Mr. HUBERT. What color was his hair?
Mr. VAUGHN. I believe--the best I remember I believe it was black.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you notice whether he had a limp or not?
Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; I didn't notice.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you first hear that Ruby was supposed to have
passed by you?
Mr. VAUGHN. I went immediately, after I took this man to the basement,
I seen another officer that was right there in the basement and I
asked him--they had already told him to go back to the squad, and so
I run on up to 511, which is the patrol office, and Lieutenant Pierce
was up there and I asked him if he wanted me to go ahead and stay on
that position on the ramp out there, or what he wanted me to do and he
said to go ahead and check back in service with the dispatcher and go
back to the squad, and that was about, I would say, somewhere around
1 o'clock, and I went on back out and I answered a call, I believe I
answered a couple of calls, and I answered one out in East Dallas and
while I was out of the car, getting out of the car going up to talk to
the people, they called--I heard a call for me to call 401, at Parkland
Hospital, which is the officer's room out there at Parkland, and so I
went ahead and got the information concerned with the call and I got
back to the car and went to the phone and I called. I called Parkland
Hospital and talked to Captain Talbert, and Captain Talbert asked me if
I had seen Jack Ruby that day and I said, "No." He asked me if I knew
him and I said, "Well, I know him to the point that probably if I had
met the man on the street in a crowd I wouldn't have recognized him,
but to the point that if I had some occasion to talk to him, I believe
I would," and he asked me if I had seen him and so I told him "No," and
I began to wondering about it and I went on and checked out of service
and went to the jail office.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, Captain Talbert did not tell you that there
was some idea that Ruby had gone by you and got into the basement in
that way?
Mr. VAUGHN. Well, he may have possibly stated something like that--I
don't recall, actually.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, you said a moment ago you got to thinking and
worrying about it.
Mr. VAUGHN. Well, actually when he asked me if I had seen Ruby that
morning--I don't really recall if he said whether that is the way he
is supposed to have come in or anything else. Well, I went on, like
I said, and I checked out and I went to 511 where I think I seen
Lieutenant Pierce and he told me that that's how Ruby said he had come
into the basement.
Mr. HUBERT. About what time was that?
Mr. VAUGHN. Oh, I would say it was somewhere around 2 or 2:30.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ask him who Ruby had told that to?
Mr. VAUGHN. I don't believe I did.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know now who he told it to?
Mr. VAUGHN. Well, I understood, of course--I don't know definitely--I
understood he told Mr. Sorrels and Detective McMillon and several
more--I don't know.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever talk to Pat Dean about it?
Mr. VAUGHN. Dean asked me one time if I knew what Ruby had said, I
recall, and this was sometime later, and I said I knew what he had
said--that that's how he had gotten in.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Dean tell you that Ruby had told him that?
Mr. VAUGHN. I don't believe he did, Mr. Hubert, I can't recall exactly
what it was.
Mr. HUBERT. How long after the event did you have this conversation
with Dean?
Mr. VAUGHN. Oh, it may have been possibly the same day--later that
afternoon, or maybe the next morning, I don't recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he approach you about it or did you approach him?
Mr. VAUGHN. I actually don't recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Did any of your superior officers question you about
whether Jack could have gotten by you?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, they questioned me quite extensively about it. That
was on Sunday it happened, and I worked Monday, and I think it was--I
talked to Lieutenant Pierce some, I believe, and Tuesday I was off and
so Tuesday morning around 9 o'clock they called me at home and told
me to come in and write a report and so I got up and went down there
and wrote a report Tuesday, and I was off Wednesday. So Wednesday
night I was supposed to be off Thursday at that particular time--I
had three days off that week, and I think it was a holiday fell in
there somewhere--Thanksgiving is what it was--and Wednesday night they
called me at home, Lieutenant Pierce called me. I don't recall that it
was--whether it was 7 or 8 or 9 o'clock, and told me to come in and go
to work Thursday morning, that Chief Fisher wanted to talk to me, and I
came in and went ahead and went to work and I worked until, I believe,
8:30 or 9 and I got a call to report to 511 on a mark-out.
Mr. HUBERT. What is a mark-out?
Mr. VAUGHN. That means you are out of service. The dispatcher will show
you being somewhere else, and so when I went up there, Chief Fisher,
Captain Talbert, and Lieutenant Pierce, I believe, was all sitting
in this little assembly room and they were talking, and I didn't say
anything else--I didn't say anything to them, and so within a few
minutes Chief Fisher asked me as I recall, now maybe I'm a little bit
wrong, as far as he asked me, but somebody asked me if I was ready
to go up to his office and I said "Yes," and we went on up to Chief
Fisher's office which is up on the third floor and I was accompanied
by Lieutenant Pierce and Captain Talbert, so Chief Fisher questioned
me about it quite extensively, and I told him the exact story that I
had in my report and I have told you, and then he asked me--he said he
didn't doubt my integrity, but would I take a lie detector test and
I told him--yes, I would take a lie detector test and I went in and
Detective Bentley, who was operating the polygraph, and so I went in
and took the test.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know at that time that Daniels had said that he had
seen somebody go by you?
Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir--I had contacted Daniels, of course--I didn't
actually clear my conversation when I talked to him about it--I had
contacted Daniels--I remember seeing him there, after personally
knowing Daniels--I knew him by sight, and he knew me by sight, and
so----
Mr. HUBERT. When did you contact Daniels?
Mr. VAUGHN. It was on Monday morning.
Mr. HUBERT. And you did so, I suppose, because you knew of the
possibility that was being talked about that Ruby had passed by you and
you thought that he was there and he might know?
Mr. VAUGHN. I knew he was there--I remember seeing him.
Mr. HUBERT. What did he tell you?
Mr. VAUGHN. Well, I called him at home--he has a business down in
South Dallas, but it wasn't open--that was the day of the President's
funeral, and I called him at home and I believe his wife answered the
phone, and I asked her if I could speak to him, and so he come to the
phone and I told him who I was and I said, "I remember seeing you
down there yesterday, and I just want to ask you something." I said,
"Do you recall this car--this Lieutenant Pierce's car coming out of
the basement?" And he said, "Yes, sure." And, I says, "Well, did you
see anybody go down that basement while that car was coming out?" He
said, "No, definitely not; there was nobody." And, I told him, I said,
"That's the way Ruby said he got in," and I thanked him and left.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ask him whether he saw anybody come by you out
to--after the Pierce car had passed through?
Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; I don't recall asking him that.
Mr. HUBERT. He didn't tell you in any case that he had seen somebody?
Mr. VAUGHN. He said there definitely--he said there was definitely
nobody went down that ramp but that car.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you that he had ever seen anybody go through?
Mr. VAUGHN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he deny he had ever seen anybody go through?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir; he said he definitely did not see anybody go
through.
Mr. HUBERT. And was the conversation such that when he told you that,
you understood him to mean at any time whatsoever?
Mr. VAUGHN. The only part I was asking him about was the point when
that car come out, Mr. Hubert.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, his denial then that he saw anybody come
through, you think, because of the nature of the conversation, was
limited to whether anybody came through while the Pierce car was going
through?
Mr. VAUGHN. That was the only part that my intention was to ask him
about--was that particular one situation that arose there, because the
rest of the time I was in the ramp.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell me this, after the conversation and the examination by
Fisher and the lie detector test, and so forth, was there any kind of
disciplinary action taken against you by the police department?
Mr. VAUGHN. No; I had my efficiency cut.
Mr. HUBERT. That's one thing I am interested in--tell us about that.
Mr. VAUGHN. Well, I got cut four points.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that a drastic cut?
Mr. VAUGHN. Well, for me it was. Of course, in some cases it isn't.