Mr. HUBERT. Out over the sidewalk and into the street?
Mr. DANIELS. Yes; because there was some cars parked and he had to get
beyond them, you see.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, while you were watching the car and Vaughn, I think
you said you watched the car until it went around the corner. Did you
see anybody go down the ramp?
Mr. DANIELS. No, no; I didn't.
Mr. HUBERT. Would it have been possible for somebody to have gone to
your left and down the ramp?
Mr. DANIELS. You mean have gotten between me and there?
Mr. HUBERT. And the building--yes.
Mr. DANIELS. Not without me seeing them--I don't hardly think so.
Mr. HUBERT. In any case, they would have to climb over the little
marble----
Mr. DANIELS. Well, I was not exactly against it at that time. When the
car came out, I think I stepped back a little bit, you know, and moved
out of the way.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, you said that at one point you were standing on the
Western Union side of that concrete--what do you call it?
Mr. DANIELS. I call it a ramp.
Mr. HUBERT. Concrete ramp--sticking out in the sidewalk?
Mr. DANIELS. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you had your foot on it?
Mr. DANIELS. Yes; because I was in and out of that position, but when
the car came out, I left that and I stepped back out here a little
piece from the----
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you left the area 3 and went more towards
the street?
Mr. DANIELS. I went towards the street and kind of back down the
sidewalk a little piece.
Mr. HUBERT. You went more towards the Main Street curb and back in the
direction of the Western Union?
Mr. DANIELS. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. In any case, you didn't see anybody go to your left?
Mr. DANIELS. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Nor did you see anybody go down the ramp?
Mr. DANIELS. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Then, after Vaughn had done this and the car had gone
around, what did Vaughn do?
Mr. DANIELS. He came back and took his position up again.
Mr. HUBERT. So that it is fair to say then that the position we have
marked on the map as position 2 was also the position of Vaughn after
the Rio Pierce automobile had gone through?
Mr. DANIELS. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what happened after that?
Mr. DANIELS. Let's see, there is something else that I have been
thoroughly confused on--I have never been able to picture in my mind
just how it happened--the guy that I saw go into the basement--I'm not
sure it was before or after the car came out. I'm not sure--I have run
that in my mind a thousand times, but I just can't place one before the
other.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, in any case, you saw a man go down in the basement?
Mr. DANIELS. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And at the time you saw him go down in the basement, where
was Vaughn?
Mr. DANIELS. In position 2.
Mr. HUBERT. In position 2, that is to say, squarely in the middle of
the ramp?
Mr. DANIELS. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Vaughn look at him?
Mr. DANIELS. I think he did.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Vaughn try to stop him?
Mr. DANIELS. No.
Mr. HUBERT. He went right on through?
Mr. DANIELS. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know how long that was before the shot was fired?
Mr. DANIELS. 3 or 4 minutes, I guess.
Mr. HUBERT. But what you say is confusing you is as to whether or not
that was after the Rio Pierce car came out?
Mr. DANIELS. I'm not sure--I can't place one before the other--if I had
to guess at it, I would say it was before.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you think now that you saw the man go down
past Vaughn before the Rio Pierce car came?
Mr. DANIELS. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that correct?
Mr. DANIELS. That's what I'm thinking.
Mr. HUBERT. That's your best recollection today?
Mr. DANIELS. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, when the Rio Pierce car did drive out and Vaughn left
his position at No. 2, didn't you as a matter of fact undertake to
watch that position which was left unguarded?
Mr. DANIELS. I did notice it to see if anybody went down in it so I
could tell him about it.
Mr. HUBERT. And nobody did?
Mr. DANIELS. No.
Mr. HUBERT. And that does not refresh your memory as to whether or not
the man you saw go down, went down before or after the Pierce car came
out?
Mr. DANIELS. Let me see--I still think it was before.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know that now?
Mr. DANIELS. No; I can't be positive--I don't know it.
Mr. HUBERT. Isn't it a fact that you thought at one time he was the man
you had seen somehow when you were on the police force?
Mr. DANIELS. Well, yes; and here's what--when the guy walked down in
there and Vaughn seemed to look at him, the impression I got was that
Vaughn knew him and maybe he had let him out and still, I wondered too
why he let him go down in there, because he wasn't letting anybody
else go down in there. He looked like one of the news reporters or
something, at least that's what I took him to be after Vaughn let him
go on down. I had seen him before and I thought, well, maybe he's one
of the news reporters down there at the city hall.
Mr. HUBERT. Let me ask you to do this, Mr. Daniels, I have here three
documents. The first one purports to be a copy of an interview with the
State police, I think, or the city police, in the course of which you
executed an affidavit on November 29, 1963.
I'm going to mark that for purpose of identification as follows:
"Dallas, Tex., April 16, 1964, Exhibit No. 5325, deposition of N. J.
Daniels," and I am signing my name below it. There are two pages. I
am marking the second page with my initials in the lower right-hand
corner. Then there's another document which purports to be a report of
an interview with the FBI Agents Neil Quigley and John Dallman, which
interview occurred on December 4, 1964. That document has four pages. I
am marking in the right hand margin on the first page, the following:
"Dallas, Tex., April 16, 1964, Exhibit No. 5326, Deposition of N. J.
Daniels." I am writing my name below that and marking the second and
third and fourth pages of that with my initials in the lower right-hand
corner, and finally, there is another document which is an FBI report
of an interview with Bramblett [spelling] B-r-a-m-b-l-e-t-t and
Dallman, taken of you on December 18, 1963, and I am marking that:
"Dallas, Tex., April 16, 1964, this is Exhibit 5327, Deposition of N.
J. Daniels."
I am marking my name on it and since the document consists of three
pages, I am placing my initials in the lower right-hand corner of the
second and third pages.
Now, Mr. Daniels, I would like you to read these three documents with
this in mind, that after you have had a chance to read them calmly and
quietly, take all the time you want, I would like you to look at them
and be able to comment upon them.
For instance, I am going to ask you if they are correct, or what is
wrong about them, and I want to try to reconcile them, and see if we
can get at what are really the facts as you recollect the facts today.
We are not interested in any positions of mind or concepts that you
don't really have, but that other people might have driven you to,
with good motive or not, what we want now is forgetting about whatever
anybody else told you, what your recollection is right now--today,
without reference to anything else, if you can possibly do it.
Keep that in mind--forget about suggestions made to you in all good
faith by other people, and just cut that out of your mind and let's
just do that--that scene as you saw it, and these words today.
Mr. DANIELS. All right.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I am going to give you some time to look at it.